If I'm level 16, I have a speed of 35ft and Assurance Athletics, how far can I leap with a single action when using Cloud Jump?
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With a single action, the furthest you could jump is 35, which easily falls within your assurance range with athletics. This is because your jump is "capped" by your speed. To jump further, you have to spend additional actions with Cloud Jump to add your speed again to the distance you can jump.
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This is another thing that I don't believe will ever have consensus without errata. While beowulf99's interpretation is certainly valid, I believe the phrase "Triple the distance you Long Jump" allows you to jump 3x your speed, or up to 5x by using 3 actions and Quick Jump.
That would certainly be on par with other Legendary Feats, like Legendary Sneak essentially letting you be permanently Invisible.
Capping the distance at your speed would reduce this to an Expert Feat at best.
Powerful Leap also adds an additional 5 feet to the total.
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This is another thing that I don't believe will ever have consensus without errata. While beowulf99's interpretation is certainly valid, I believe the phrase "Triple the distance you Long Jump" allows you to jump 3x your speed, or up to 5x by using 3 actions and Quick Jump.
That would certainly be on par with other Legendary Feats, like Legendary Sneak essentially letting you be permanently Invisible.
Capping the distance at your speed would reduce this to an Expert Feat at best.
Powerful Leap also adds an additional 5 feet to the total.
Yeah, I can certainly see that interpretation as well. And being that the feat is legendary does make a certain amount of sense. Then again, allowing a base human with NO speed increases to jump forward 75 feet with 1 action does feel too powerful even for a legendary feat. Such a character would never have any reason to stride, since you can easily leap directly to whatever space you would be trying to stride to, barring any terrain blocking a direct route anyway.
I see the feat acting more to trivialize "maximum" jumps to the point that a roll isn't truly necessary, only becoming necessary again once the character attempts a really LONG jump with multiple actions. After all a 75 foot jump would be a DC 25 check even for a Cloud Jumper, and a DC 75 check without it.
To each their own.
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Because this issue has been cause contentious before, and because Cloud Jump is actually a surprising complicated feat I took the liberty of dissecting my understanding of it in a longer form.
I disagree with Beowulfs more conservative reading, but at the same time i'm not in line with Aratorin on the use of Powerful Leap.
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Because this issue has been cause contentious before, and because Cloud Jump is actually a surprising complicated feat I took the liberty of dissecting my understanding of it in a longer form.
I disagree with Beowulfs more conservative reading, but at the same time i'm not in line with Aratorin on the use of Powerful Leap.
Like I said, I can understand why you would view the feat that way, and understand the reasoning behind it. But I fundamentally disagree with that interpretation for the following reasons:
1. Cloud Jump uses Long Jump. The first half of Cloud Jump never mentions any indication that it interacts with the following line of Long Jump: "You can’t Leap farther than your Speed."
2. Cloud Jump then provides you with a way of improving the "maximum distance" you can leap: Spending more actions. And this feels legendary to me, fitting the class of feat we are talking about.
3. The very example given by Cloud Jump tells you how it works. You wish to leap 60 feet. That leap will be a DC 20 check, following all of the rules of Long Jump, including the proviso that you cannot leap farther than your Speed.
At what point, under your interpretation, does Cloud Jump directly state that you no longer have to follow the rules of a Long Jump?
Edit: Let me take another tack here. What is stopping a player from attempting a Long Jump that they cannot pass? Say a lvl 10 character with +18 in athletics decides that they want to attempt to leap 30 feet. They can make that check, sure and they can even pass it with a little difficulty. But Long Jump has a built in limiter, which sets the maximum distance that you can jump: Your speed. So if their speed is less than 30, they simply cannot make that leap and instead leap up to their speed even if they made that check.
Add Cloud Jump into the equation and the only thing that changes is the math you use to calculate your DC. You still operate under the rules of Long Jump, including the restriction of "your speed" in distance. That is until you get to the second part of Cloud Jump which allows you to increase that distance with additional action expenditure.
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I'll address your points in turn
1) Why would it? The rules are already baked into the calculation you are making.
Cloud Jump multiples the end result of a Long Jump. You have to perform a legal Long Jump or else nothing happens.
Long Jump is what sets the DC limitations not Cloud Jump, so there is no need to reference it in the text of Cloud Jump. Nothing in Cloud Jump's first paragraph in anyway interfers with Long Jump DC, which is set as the distance you are trying to jump.You have already calculated your Long Jump DC before Cloud Jump even enters the picture.
2) No contest here. The 2nd paragraph of Cloud Jump does in fact do that and it can lead to some insane numbers. Your second point is not in conflict with my interpretation.
By allowing you to increase the distance you CAN jump by spending multiple actions, it is the 2nd paragraph of Cloud Jump that allows us to modify the Long Jump DC.
Where previously a character with speed 30 would be capped at a maximum DC of 30, by spending an extra action they could increase this DC to 60 if they wished and attempt that.
3) Yes it does... I'm not sure I understand this point. By following the rules of Long Jump you get a x3 multiplier of the distance by making the check. DC20, DC30, DC100, doesn't matter. If you have a means of setting your DC so high (requires an equivalent speed) you get the multiplier.
To address your unembumbers points.
"What stops a player attempting a Long Jump they cannot pass?" Nothing, so long as the DC is within their reach. If you can set the DC to 30, but have such bad Athletics that its literally impossible for you make it, then you just fail the check and your Long Jump defaults down to a standard Leap.
The Leap action doesn't benefit from Cloud Jump as a Leap is neither a Long Jump or High Jump, and so doesn't get the multiplier.
Your last paragraph is completely correct however. The 2nd paragraph allows you to increase the maximum DC by adding your speed to it a number of times equal to actions set.
You then make the DC, which is equal to the distance you are trying to make, if you succeed you get your x3 multiplier.
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And again, I have to disagree with that interpretation. To me it falls well into "too good to be true" territory. Allowing a speed 25 character to leap 75 feet in one action is game breakingly too good. They'd never have to stride again so long as they have a reasonably direct line at someone, and they could leap up to 3 times the total distance they could ever stride with 3 cloud jumps.
It is my belief that Cloud Jump is just a modified Long Jump. This means it follows all the rules of Long Jump, and only modifies them when it says that it does. So when you say that you multiply your long jump distance by 3, I say that you are still limited to only being able to jump as far as your Speed as Cloud Jump never directly states that this restriction doesn't apply to your multiplied distance.
This interpretation still leaves the door open to Cloud Jump being Legendary. After all it does allow you to bypass that restriction, at a reasonable cost. You get to move as far as you can stride 3 times in "1" jump. That is pretty Legendary imho.
At this juncture, I don't think there is any more to say. We disagreed in the past and we certainly disagree now.
I will only say that if your interpretation feels intended, then by all means go ahead with it. Your table is your table.
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Here’s the rub though, that’s all your personal sentiment.
In the above link I break it all down step by step, side by side with the rules text. If I have an inaccurate reading or misinterpreted of the rules, the please point it out, but the game has no “too good to be true” filter on possibly, only what’s not supported by the rules.
I feel that I am.
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Here’s the rub though, that’s all your personal sentiment.
In the above link I break it all down step by step, side by side with the rules text. If I have an inaccurate reading or misinterpreted of the rules, the please point it out, but the game has no “too good to be true” filter on possibly, only what’s not supported by the rules.
I feel that I am.
And I feel that this interpretation is incorrect. You never address the in built limitation of jumping beyond your speed with a long jump. Cloud jump only addresses that with its second half, spending actions to increase your maximum distance.
And yes, there is a too good to be true filter by default. Ambiguous rules, page 443. Phone posting atm, so relying on Nethys but the relevent quote is:
Ambiguous Rules Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
If you don't agree that allowing a character to triple their possible movement by cloud jumping 3 times is problematic or too good to be true, then there really is nothing more to say. In fact, what would be the point of the second half of the feat if it worked your way? In realistic situations? It would always be better to forgo spending an extra action to increase the distance, instead you would simply want to cloud jump again, making the second half of the feat functionally useless.
I obviously read the rule differently than you do. But I will say that publishing a guide you should be open to the various ways that a rule can be read. Simply brushing off a reasonable interpretation of the rule by saying, "There are some people out there who think that the first paragraph contains what amounts to no practical rules text and instead only the second paragraph grants anything new.
I know I know, I don’t get it either, but I just thought I would mention it before I carry on," is being disingenuous at best. I know that it makes me question the validity of your guide as a whole.
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I'm going to agree with Old_Man_Robot on this one. I take Cloud Jump as two abilities. First is the extension of Long Jump and High Jump. When you long jump, you jump 3 times the distance set by the DC. When you high jump, you follow the rules of long jump without tripling the distance. The implication being that you can leap 60 feat for a single Long Jump. Since Cloud Jump modifies Long Jump, and being able to leap 60 feet would be otherwise impossible, I'd say that you can now jump longer than your speed.
The second ability then is being able to further extend your jumps by your speed again. If the implication was that this was required to make the 60 ft jump possible in the first place, then putting an example of an impossible jump without explaining it was impossible without the use of this second ability would be absurd. Additionally, the wording
You can also increase the number of actions you use (up to the number of actions you have remaining in your turn) to jump [i]even[i/] further.
would be problematic, as the words "also" and "even" imply that this happens in addition to what is said in the paragraph previous, not as an explanation to how it happens.
I also have to say that while this is powerful, its still not flying, and you can only go so far in a straight line. It's not even a situation that comes up frequently, and just makes you feel cool more than anything.
If you don't agree that allowing a character to triple their possible movement by cloud jumping 3 times is problematic or too good to be true, then there really is nothing more to say. In fact, what would be the point of the second half of the feat if it worked your way? In realistic situations? It would always be better to forgo spending an extra action to increase the distance, instead you would simply want to cloud jump again, making the second half of the feat functionally useless.
In my view, the point of the second part is for when you can't jump 3 times, like because you are trying to jump across a 120 foot wide ravine.
But again, in my opinion, both sides have valid points, and this issue cannot be brought to consensus without Paizo clarifying it.
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I obviously read the rule differently than you do. But I will say that publishing a guide you should be open to the various ways that a rule can be read. Simply brushing off a reasonable interpretation of the rule by saying, "There are some people out there who think that the first paragraph contains what amounts to no practical rules text and instead only the second paragraph grants anything...
Now you are just being mean. “Questioning the validity” of my whole guide because you don’t understand jumping is just plain mean spirited.
You haven’t actually presented a textual reason for it to be wrong other than you just don’t want it to be true.
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I obviously read the rule differently than you do. But I will say that publishing a guide you should be open to the various ways that a rule can be read. Simply brushing off a reasonable interpretation of the rule by saying, "There are some people out there who think that the first paragraph contains what amounts to no practical rules text and instead only the second paragraph grants anything...Now you are just being mean. “Questioning the validity” of my whole guide because you don’t understand jumping is just plain mean spirited.
You haven’t actually presented a textual reason for it to be wrong other than you just don’t want it to be true.
Nothing mean spirited intended. Just pointing out that if you want to have a compelling guide, you should be willing to discuss multiple interpretations of the same rule, rather than off handedly belittling anyone who doesnt read a specific rule the same way you do. "I know I know i don't get it either harharhar," springs to mind.
But to address Cloud Jump, you have not provided "textual support" for how Cloud Jump ignores the speed restrictions of Long Jumping, without spending more actions. You haven't answered that question once. Sure, triple the distance you Long Jump sounds good, but it doesnt say that you ignore the speed restriction of Cloud Jump does it? So run that through you logic step by step.
When does Cloud Jump allow you to bypass that restriction? Which line exactly?
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If you don't agree that allowing a character to triple their possible movement by cloud jumping 3 times is problematic or too good to be true, then there really is nothing more to say. In fact, what would be the point of the second half of the feat if it worked your way? In realistic situations? It would always be better to forgo spending an extra action to increase the distance, instead you would simply want to cloud jump again, making the second half of the feat functionally useless.In my view, the point of the second part is for when you can't jump 3 times, like because you are trying to jump across a 120 foot wide ravine.
But again, in my opinion, both sides have valid points, and this issue cannot be brought to consensus without Paizo clarifying it.
I tend to agree. But I do generally rule on what is most reasonable, especially where feats are concerned.
Allowing a character to triple their totally possible movement just feels too much to me. And you don't even have to be jumping your "maximum" distance each time for it to have a real game impact: When jumping how do you interact with Difficult Terrain? You don't, you jump over it.
When jumping do you count as "entering" and "leaving" each space you jump through? The rules don't say specifically as far as I can tell, so are you triggering reactions when you jump past foes? Or no? For reference, leap states that you, "Land in the space where your leap ends." So are you a Final Fantasy Dragoon, untouchable while mid-jump soaring across the battlefield at impossible speeds?
If you allow a character to Cloud Jump 3 times their speed in 1 action, there is very little reason they would do anything but Long Jump everywhere.
Why should a speed 25 character ever be able to non-magically, un-aided, move 225 feet in a single round? Because that is what you are allowing with Old_Man's interpretation.
And if that sounds fine to you because it's a Legendary feat, well hey cool man. As long as it's fun for all involved, don't let me stop you.
Edit: For reference a Legendary Character with Assurance Athletics will automatically make a DC 25 check, so this doesn't even have the possibility for failure either. So feel free to just auto-pass cloud jump 75 feet with every action with no possibility of failure.
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I obviously read the rule differently than you do. But I will say that publishing a guide you should be open to the various ways that a rule can be read. Simply brushing off a reasonable interpretation of the rule by saying, "There are some people out there who think that the first paragraph contains what amounts to no practical rules text and instead only the second paragraph grants anything...Now you are just being mean. “Questioning the validity” of my whole guide because you don’t understand jumping is just plain mean spirited.
You haven’t actually presented a textual reason for it to be wrong other than you just don’t want it to be true.
Nothing mean spirited intended. Just pointing out that if you want to have a compelling guide, you should be willing to discuss multiple interpretations of the same rule, rather than off handedly belittling anyone who doesnt read a specific rule the same way you do. "I know I know i don't get it either harharhar," springs to mind.
But to address Cloud Jump, you have not provided "textual support" for how Cloud Jump ignores the speed restrictions of Long Jumping, without spending more actions. You haven't answered that question once. Sure, triple the distance you Long Jump sounds good, but it doesnt say that you ignore the speed restriction of Cloud Jump does it? So run that through you logic step by step.
When does Cloud Jump allow you to bypass that restriction? Which line exactly?
This is why I said you don’t understand jumping.
It doesn’t need to because that’s not how this works. Cloud Jump is compliant with Long Jump calculations for Speed.
Seriously go re-read my breakdown of how this is calculated. You have just fundamentally misunderstood the mechanics. You keep asking me to explain something I don’t posit and doesn’t exist.
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Long Jump is what sets the DC limitations not Cloud Jump
This. This right here is where your analysis goes off the rails.
The Long Jump action does not limit the DC. It limits the actual distance you can travel. The rule is "You can’t Leap farther than your Speed," not "you can't set a DC higher than your Speed." The DC to jump a 40 ft distance is 40. You can attempt it, but unless your Speed is at least 40 ft, you're going to stop before you reach the full distance, even if you make the DC.
Nothing in Cloud Jump changes that rule.
Instead, it lets people - like, say, 15th level monks, with their 50 ft Speed - make 50 ft Long Jumps without having to hit a DC 50 Athletics check. (Or Fleet Nimble elven monks make 65 ft Long Jumps without trying to hit a literally-impossible-within-the-game DC 65 Athletics check.)
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Count me in the "leaping 75 feet with each action is too good to be true" camp. I also don't think it is supported by the rules for the reason Shisumo succinctly outlines.
That would certainly be on par with other Legendary Feats, like Legendary Sneak essentially letting you be permanently Invisible.
It is not on par with other Legendary feats, nor is that what Legendary Sneak does. Legendary Sneak lets you Hide and Sneak without cover or concealment, like an invisible character can do, but it is distinct for a few reasons:
1) An invisible character can't become observed,* only hidden, if they fail their stealth check. The Legendary Sneak can become observed by failing their check.
2) Because an invisible character is always hidden,* they can always Sneak without needing to lose an action Hiding first. This is not the case for a Legendary Sneak. If they are observed, they must use the Hide action first before they can use a Sneak action. (Though there are ways around this limitation with the right feats, gear, and/or environment.)
While this is a bit of a tangent, this thread seems to be about calibrating expectations for Legendary feats so it seems worth mentioning.
Count me in the "leaping 75 feet with each action is too good to be true" camp. I also don't think it is supported by the rules for the reason Shisumo succinctly outlines.
That would certainly be on par with other Legendary Feats, like Legendary Sneak essentially letting you be permanently Invisible.
It is not on par with other Legendary feats, nor is that what Legendary Sneak does. Legendary Sneak lets you Hide and Sneak without cover or concealment, like an invisible character can do, but it is distinct for a few reasons:
1) An invisible character can't become observed,* only hidden, if they fail their stealth check. The Legendary Sneak can become observed by failing their check.
2) Because an invisible character is always hidden,* they can always Sneak without needing to lose an action Hiding first. This is not the case for a Legendary Sneak. If they are observed, they must use the Hide action first before they can use a Sneak action. (Though there are ways around this limitation with the right feats, gear, and/or environment.)
While this is a bit of a tangent, this thread seems to be about calibrating expectations for Legendary feats so it seems worth mentioning.
I also agree with this. It is also important to keep in mind other "legendary" feats when you are trying to set a base line expectation of how powerful they should be.
Legendary Medic for instance allows you to once per day per target attempt a 1 hour healing of an ailment not normally treatable with Medicine. That is pretty great as a feat for a mundane doctor style character, it can save valuable spell slots and prevent a characters death with minimal expenditure of resources. But is no where near as powerful as Cloud Jump under Old_Man_Robot's interpretation.
The Legendary feats are strong, some are arguably better than others. But they aren't as powerful as allowing a character to jump 75 feet in a single action. Not even close. That is 20th level capstone class feat good. Better than many of those in my opinion.
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Count me in the "leaping 75 feet with each action is too good to be true" camp. I also don't think it is supported by the rules for the reason Shisumo succinctly outlines.
That would certainly be on par with other Legendary Feats, like Legendary Sneak essentially letting you be permanently Invisible.
It is not on par with other Legendary feats, nor is that what Legendary Sneak does. Legendary Sneak lets you Hide and Sneak without cover or concealment, like an invisible character can do, but it is distinct for a few reasons:
1) An invisible character can't become observed,* only hidden, if they fail their stealth check. The Legendary Sneak can become observed by failing their check.
2) Because an invisible character is always hidden,* they can always Sneak without needing to lose an action Hiding first. This is not the case for a Legendary Sneak. If they are observed, they must use the Hide action first before they can use a Sneak action. (Though there are ways around this limitation with the right feats, gear, and/or environment.)
While this is a bit of a tangent, this thread seems to be about calibrating expectations for Legendary feats so it seems worth mentioning.
I also agree with this. It is also important to keep in mind other "legendary" feats when you are trying to set a base line expectation of how powerful they should be.
Legendary Medic for instance allows you to once per day per target attempt a 1 hour healing of an ailment not normally treatable with Medicine. That is pretty great as a feat for a mundane doctor style character, it can save valuable spell slots and prevent a characters death with minimal expenditure of resources. But is no where near as powerful as Cloud Jump under Old_Man_Robot's interpretation.
The Legendary feats are strong, some are arguably better than others. But they aren't as powerful as allowing a character to jump 75 feet in a single action. Not even close. That is 20th level...
Another relevant point of reference: the 12th level Rogue feat Fantastic Leap. Slightly lower level, but class feats are generally a more valuable resource than skill feats.
Under beowulf's reading of Cloud Jump, it is a great feat which works in conjunction with Fantastic Leap. Under Old Man Robot's reading, Cloud Jump becomes at least 3 times as good as Fantastic Leap. I don't think a 15th level skill feat should be THAT much better than a 12th level class feat.
There's that one feat that, once you get legendary acrobatics with it, makes you immune to falling damage... so it can be a little blurry to say how powerful the effect of 1 feat + 1 legendary proficiency is intended to be.
Being able to jump up to your Speed, even if your speed is cranked up by special features, doesn't actually seem that powerful to me at a first glance. In many cases it, like being immune to falling damage, isn't actually changing the outcome of anything because, just like you aren't often having encounters with lots of things to fall off of, jumping over stuff isn't often super useful.
I haven't looked at all the rules elements in depth on my own yet, so I reserve final judgement, but at a concept level things seem fine so far.
We all think Cloud Jump lets you jump up to your speed. Some (not myself) think it lets you exceed your speed as a single action to a huge degree. A 16th level character under that reading could jump 100 feet on an Assurance roll. Effectively tripling their movement speed save before considering difficult terrain.
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There's that one feat that, once you get legendary acrobatics with it, makes you immune to falling damage... so it can be a little blurry to say how powerful the effect of 1 feat + 1 legendary proficiency is intended to be.
Being able to jump up to your Speed, even if your speed is cranked up by special features, doesn't actually seem that powerful to me at a first glance. In many cases it, like being immune to falling damage, isn't actually changing the outcome of anything because, just like you aren't often having encounters with lots of things to fall off of, jumping over stuff isn't often super useful.
I haven't looked at all the rules elements in depth on my own yet, so I reserve final judgement, but at a concept level things seem fine so far.
Catfall can be powerful with Legendary Acrobatics sure, but it is no more powerful than Feather Fall, a 1st level spell that is able to be cast as a Reaction. Gauging the power of a "Legendary" feat can be tough, but it helps to look at competing abilities.
In the case of Cloud Jump, it is almost as good as flight to be honest, and is at will. You ignore difficult terrain while jumping, and it allows you to clear all but the most crazy long pits with ease.
Allowing a character to use 1 action to move 75 feet in any type of movement is bonkers. Allowing that movement to ignore difficult terrain, and possibly reactions depending on how you interpret that part of jumping, is even more crazy. Compare to Wind Jump, a Monk focus spell. It grants you a fly speed equal to your speed for the round, with the rider that you have to end your turn on solid ground or fall. Cloud Jump under Old_Man_Robot's interpretation makes that spell practically useless unless the intent is to move upwards. And even then, if you combine Cloud Jump with Wall Jump, you can still move vertically 3 times your speed so long as you are next to a wall, it just isn't as easy since you don't have the X3 multiplier to work with.
intent is to move upwards. And even then, if you combine Cloud Jump with Wall Jump, you can still move vertically 3 times your speed so long as you are next to a wall, it just isn't as easy since you don't have the X3 multiplier to work with.
And that makes it twice as good as Wind Jump because Flying counts vertical distance as difficult terrain. Plus Wind Jump costs an action and a ki point to activate.
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So by the time you reach level 15 and have legendary proficiency you are going to have at least a +23 to your jump ability with assurance and quick jumping your jumping your speed each action.
Then cloud jump says you triple the distance you can long jump (if this does not remove the cap this part of the feat provides no benefit for a legendary jumper) so it's ambiguous but tripling the distance you can long jump can be interpreted as tripling the maximum distance you can long jump which at this level is your speed.
The feat even give an example of a 60ft long jump which is going to be more than the majority of players speed even at level 15 supporting my interpretation.
Also its a legendary feat and competes with scaring people to death and permanent stealth. Also long jumps don't actually have a height so the mobility bonus is only really when there are not hazards that are 5ft or higher.
Actually there is a much simpler reason why a 60 foot jump is used as the example: They used a 20 foot jump for the example of Long Jump, and wanted to illustrate the difference the feat makes. What exactly is the purpose of the second half of Cloud Jump under your interpretation?
Scare to Death is pretty great. But is only usable on a target 1/minute and operates exactly like Demoralize does, only killing the target on a Critical Failure, and as it is an incapacitation effect, a higher level foe than you simply cannot critically fail.
Nothing about Legendary Sneak makes you invisible. It simply allows you to use the Hide and Sneak actions without Cover or concealment, and you don't have to declare that you are doing so. Nothing about legendary sneak bypasses the inbuilt limitation of Sneak: "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature." Legendary Sneak simply allows you to save actions by not requiring you to move to cover before attempting to hide, which is a pretty great option to be honest.
The other benefit is it allows you to avoid notice while performing another exploration tactic.
Compare that to allowing a character to move 3x their speed ignoring difficult terrain. Which is more compelling? Especially when you figure that they can do this as a single action, and can readily do so again Every Action After.
Let's put this into a scenario. You have Cloud Jump and Quick Jump. You are fighting a melee oriented opponent who does not have these feats. Assuming you have room, you can Cloud Jump to them, attack, then Cloud Jump away, effectively denying the foe their turn, as they more than likely cannot move 3 times your movement speed with 2 or less actions. Now give your character a Ranged Weapon. Suddenly, you never have to worry about being engaged, ever. You can simply Cloud Jump away for 1 action, then use your other two actions to attack the enemy.
This is very similar to the issues in Mutants & Masterminds with Teleportation characters. They are very hard to pin down, and the book goes out of it's way to warn GM's that they need to be very careful in allowing a player to have any kind of teleportation. Well, this is worse: It doesn't use spell slots or any sort of resource. It bypasses ALL of the problems they could have in the field. It simply makes obsolete many forms of advanced movement that characters have access to. I mean, why take a Climb Speed when you can simply take Cloud Jump and Wall Jump?
Nothing about Legendary Sneak makes you invisible. It simply allows you to use the Hide and Sneak actions without Cover or concealment, and you don't have to declare that you are doing so. Nothing about legendary sneak bypasses the inbuilt limitation of Sneak: "You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature." Legendary Sneak simply allows you to save actions by not requiring you to...
Legendary Sneak does bypass exactly that. It's not a coincidence that the 2 things it says you don't need are the 2 things you normally need.
Concealed never matters at the start of a Sneak, (only Hidden and Undetected are valid starting points for Sneak without this Feat) only at the end, so saying that this Feat doesn't remove that requirement from the end makes no sense at all.
You can attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type; you must move at half that Speed.)
If you’re undetected by a creature and it’s impossible for that creature to observe you (for a typical creature, this includes when you’re invisible, the observer is blinded, or you’re in darkness and the creature can’t see in darkness), for any critical failure you roll on a check to Sneak, you get a failure instead. You also continue to be undetected if you lose cover or greater cover against or are no longer concealed from such a creature.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
Success You’re undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it.
You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check. If you speak or make a deliberate loud noise, you become hidden instead of undetected.
If a creature uses Seek and you become hidden to it as a result, you must Sneak if you want to become undetected by that creature again.
Failure A telltale sound or other sign gives your position away, though you still remain unseen. You’re hidden from the creature throughout your movement and remain so.
Critical Failure You’re spotted! You’re observed by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were hidden from the creature, instead of being observed you’re hidden throughout your movement and remain so.
LEGENDARY SNEAK
STEALTH SKILL FEAT
15
GENERAL
SKILL
Prerequisites legendary in Stealth, Swift SneakYou’re always sneaking unless you choose to be seen, even when there’s nowhere to hide. You can Hide and Sneak even without cover or being concealed. When you employ an exploration tactic other than Avoiding Notice, you also gain the benefits of Avoiding Notice unless you choose not to. See page 479 for more information about exploration tactics.
With Cloud Jump, even though I disagree with your interpretation, I understand it and consider it valid.
This interpretation of Legendary Sneak I do not understand.
But now we're starting a debate about an entirely different Feat.
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Concealed never matters at the start of a Sneak, (only Hidden and Undetected are valid starting points for Sneak without this Feat) only at the end, so saying that this Feat doesn't remove that requirement from the end makes no sense at all.
Fair dues, I had mis-read cover/concealment as a prerequisite, rather than a bonus. It does appear that Legendary Sneak does allow you to sneak in plain sight, but it does not make you as good as invisible, you still are subject to perception rolls and being targeted by Seek checks. And arguably, you suffer the same limitations placed on attacking or making an "obtrusive" action. Really the Legendary Sneak feat just allows you to forgo declaring stealth, and allows you to remain stealthed when you would otherwise be automatically observed.
Still does not quite match up to being able to move 3X your movement speed with a single action, ignoring difficult terrain, though does it? That is beyond the pale.
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The second part of cloud jump let's you double/triple jump so you do your awesome triple jump and you don't reach the top of the building you were jumping up too so you add another jump for 30ft more and another for 60ft more.
Actually there is a much simpler reason why a 60 foot jump is used as the example: They used a 20 foot jump for the example of Long Jump, and wanted to illustrate the difference the feat makes. What exactly is the purpose of the second half of Cloud Jump under your interpretation?
So then why does Cloud Jump refer to distance differently in either part of the feat?
"Triple the distance you long jump..."
"Add your speed to the maximum distance you jump."
What is maximum distance in this case? The first half of the feat never mentions maximum distance, or bypassing Long Jumps in built limitation.
I propose that Maximum Distance is the absolute maximum distance that Long Jump allows you to jump, which is equal to your speed. The second half of Cloud Jump is the method you use to increase that distance.
So yes, a character with a speed of 30 who is legendary in athletics can pass a DC 20 check to long jump 60 feet with Cloud Jump. But they cannot physically jump 60 feet without spending at least one action to increase their maximum distance.
This is really the legendary part of the feat imo. Without Cloud Jump, even if you could pass a DC 50 check to long jump 50 feet, unless you are speed 50 you simply cannot do so.
Old_Man's interpretation makes the second half of Cloud Jump effectively useless, he says so himself. My interpretation means that the whole feat must be used together. And it doesnt mean that you can just jetpack away from all your problems at impossible speeds. If you want to really make impossible leaps, it will cost you actions. But leaping up to your speed easily is nothing to scoff at. It still has the benefit of ignoring difficult terrain, and clearing gaps that you couldn't stride across.
And no matter which interpretation you use, it pairs just as well with wall jump really.
This debate is hilarious. Not because of the debate but because of the dichotomy and how dramatic a different read is.
So either Cloud Jump can net a character the ability to move over 100 feet around (conservatively) and avoid difficult terrain--clearly too strong... Or that first part of Cloud Jump is virtually just complete redundant (basically saying nothing more than "you will succeed on your long jump" and "your high jump is directly equivalent to your long jump, just with a mildly tougher DC). Unless you have a move speed of 40 or greater, you literally can't fail even without Assurance (DC 12 tripled, and even rolling a 1 with a +23 just bumps you to a success). With assurance, it doesn't even matter what your move speed is, you succeed. So why is it written the way it is?
Anyways. Just seems to keep coming down to this feat is either busted in its usefulness or busted in its uselessness.
And the problem has nothing to do with Cloud Jump. The problem is Quick Jump.
Nobody would be batting an eye at this if it still took two actions to perform the plausible triple-move-speed long jump. Hell, it's technically weaker than the level 10 barbarian feat Furious Sprint, so it's not like it's some weird power push. Using two actions to triple your speed is useful but in line. But with Quick Jump, getting six times! your speed with two actions is possibly a bit much...
That's my opinion. I think the triple-length jump is RAI, even if it's not clear in the text and not well-balanced in the grand scheme of things. The easiest fix would be to just add in a two-action marker for Cloud Jump and make sure it's clear that Quick Jump doesn't reduce that.
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This debate is hilarious. Not because of the debate but because of the dichotomy and how dramatic a different read is.
So either Cloud Jump can net a character the ability to move over 100 feet around (conservatively) and avoid difficult terrain--clearly too strong... Or that first part of Cloud Jump is virtually just complete redundant (basically saying nothing more than "you will succeed on your long jump" and "your high jump is directly equivalent to your long jump, just with a mildly tougher DC). Unless you have a move speed of 40 or greater, you literally can't fail even without Assurance (DC 12 tripled, and even rolling a 1 with a +23 just bumps you to a success). With assurance, it doesn't even matter what your move speed is, you succeed. So why is it written the way it is?
Anyways. Just seems to keep coming down to this feat is either busted in its usefulness or busted in its uselessness.
And the problem has nothing to do with Cloud Jump. The problem is Quick Jump.
Nobody would be batting an eye at this if it still took two actions to perform the plausible triple-move-speed long jump. Hell, it's technically weaker than the level 10 barbarian feat Furious Sprint, so it's not like it's some weird power push. Using two actions to triple your speed is useful but in line. But with Quick Jump, getting six times! your speed with two actions is possibly a bit much...
That's my opinion. I think the triple-length jump is RAI, even if it's not clear in the text and not well-balanced in the grand scheme of things. The easiest fix would be to just add in a two-action marker for Cloud Jump and make sure it's clear that Quick Jump doesn't reduce that.
I contend that the first part of the feat is only really useful in conjunction with the second. That has been my point this entire time.
Say have 30 speed and want to leap 90 feet. You would have to make a DC 30 check, pretty easy by the time you are legendary in athletics all things considered. But in order to make that leap you would, under my interpretation, also have to spend all three of your actions. Which is entirely fair imho for the benefits you gain therein.
Just leaping your speed is practically an auto pass without Cloud Jump by level 15, since your Athletics skill increases every level while your speed stays pretty constant throughout a campaign. Cloud Jump trivializes the check further for a simple leap up to your speed, but also gives you access to the ability to leap up to 3 times your speed by spending actions.
The two halves of the feat are linked, the second half is not merely a little useless cherry on top.
So either Cloud Jump can net a character the ability to move over 100 feet around (conservatively) and avoid difficult terrain--clearly too strong... Or that first part of Cloud Jump is virtually just complete redundant (basically saying nothing more than "you will succeed on your long jump" and "your high jump is directly equivalent to your long jump, just with a mildly tougher DC). Unless you have a move speed of 40 or greater, you literally can't fail even without Assurance (DC 12 tripled, and even rolling a 1 with a +23 just bumps you to a success). With assurance, it doesn't even matter what your move speed is, you succeed. So why is it written the way it is?
I think while lowering the DC isn't very relevant when you consider the first paragraph on its own, it has two main applications:
1) There are characters with incredible movement speeds. An elf monk can hit 85 feet at level 15, which they'd never be able to actually leap if that DC wasn't reduced.
2) The first paragraph actually allows you to use the second paragraph. Even a 20 speed character couldn't actually hit DC 60.
Which, to me, is part of why I think the conservative ruling is the right one. The two paragraphs work together to let you do something you could never do before, even with feats like Sudden Leap.
Meanwhile, on the more generous readig, the second paragraph can become irrelevant pretty easily because jumping 5x your speed can be impossible even with diving the DC by 3. You only need a speed of 35 feet before That becomes a DC 58.
I don't know that the second part is useless in that interpretation. Going from a two-action base perspective, it goes from 3 moves for two actions to 4 moves for three, which in the context of long or high jumping has uses. So if you have 30 speed, you can jump 90 in two actions or 120 in three, 150 in four--all just off the DC for a normal long jump. The value of the additional distance does go way down with Quick Jump in the mix.
But I think the two halves are not that intrinsically linked, just based on the "can also" language.
Anyways. That's all my two cents. I just thought it was really funny to read this skill as being pretty poor or over the top good, but without writing Quick Jump out of the math, it doesn't seem to have any sort of middle ground.
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I still think the conservative reading is pretty dang good, especially if you're playing a character without access to "jump good" class feats. The high jump portion of the feat alone is amazing, even if it is redundant with the class feats, and the long jump portion makes sure those class feats more useful. This would be a high priority get on many melee characters even without tripling your movement speed.
I don't know that the second part is useless in that interpretation. Going from a two-action base perspective, it goes from 3 moves for two actions to 4 moves for three, which in the context of long or high jumping has uses. So if you have 30 speed, you can jump 90 in two actions or 120 in three, 150 in four--all just off the DC for a normal long jump. The value of the additional distance does go way down with Quick Jump in the mix.
But I think the two halves are not that intrinsically linked, just based on the "can also" language.
Anyways. That's all my two cents. I just thought it was really funny to read this skill as being pretty poor or over the top good, but without writing Quick Jump out of the math, it doesn't seem to have any sort of middle ground.
I see what you are saying, but I will say that assuming a character goes Legendary Athletics, it's a pretty safe bet that they will, at some point, take Quick Jump, whether as a standalone Skill Feat, or being granted it by your background.
While it is possible to take Cloud Jump without it, it's just not that likely imho.
And I do believe the two are intrinsically linked, I struggle to think of a single feat that provides 2 divorced benefits. Usually if there are multiple parts to a feat they compliment each other unless they occur in different "modes" of the game, like Legendary Sneak allowing you to make a second exploration tactic while while avoiding notice on top of it's encounter mode benefits.
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A skill feat, albeit Legendary, effectively tripling your movement speed while letting you avoid gaps, difficult terrain and possible AoOs in the way, is really too much. And not only for its power, but because it invalidates so much other stuff.
So I go with the other interpretation, that it lets you jump further without additional difficulty, but spending additional actions.
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A skill feat, albeit Legendary, effectively tripling your movement speed while letting you avoid gaps, difficult terrain and possible AoOs in the way, is really too much. And not only for its power, but because it invalidates so much other stuff.
So I go with the other interpretation, that it lets you jump further without additional difficulty, but spending additional actions.
Yeah, let's not lose sight of that bold bit. One reading invalidates a bunch of feats you probably took while leveling up if you're into jumping and rendered one particular feat into an insanely powerful one. The other reading enhances most of those feats but keeps them as relevant.
Which seems more likely to be the intent?
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A skill feat, albeit Legendary, effectively tripling your movement speed while letting you avoid gaps, difficult terrain and possible AoOs in the way, is really too much. And not only for its power, but because it invalidates so much other stuff.
So I go with the other interpretation, that it lets you jump further without additional difficulty, but spending additional actions.
Stride and Leap, the 2 components of a Long Jump, both have the Movement Trait, and trigger AoOs. There is no reading where Cloud Jump would bypass that.
Any reading of Cloud Jump allows you to avoid difficult terrain and gaps. Even with the more conservative reading, there is no reason to ever Stride. The only difference to be debated is the distance.
Doubling your move distance is something that a 1st Level Class Feat can do (Sudden Charge lets you Stride twice and Attack for a total cost of 2 Actions, effectively doubling your speed), so I don't think it's unreasonable that a 15th Level Legendary Skill Feat could triple it.
Lots of things essentially invalidate things below them.
Both Fly and Wind Jump invalidate any Jumping Feats you took before them.
Legendary Sneak invalidates Very Sneaky and Very, Very Sneaky.
Intimidating Prowess (mostly) invalidates Intimidating Glare.
Legendary Survivalist invalidates Planar Survival and Environmental Grace.
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"Invalidates a bunch of stuff" sounds more like a feature than a bug to me. It's a legendary skill feat, available fairly deep into a campaign, long after a whole bunch of other 'invalidates stuff' options have come online.
Furthermore, I feel like the conservative interpretation doesn't really line up with the text either.
Saying "Triple the distance you jump" doesn't really make sense if what you're actually trying to say is not to increase the distance at all but instead to decrease the DC. Using an example that's impossible for most characters to perform doesn't make a lot of sense either.
That's not to say that I can't see where people making that interpretation are coming from, but... frankly if that was the intent of the text I don't know how they could have worded the feat to be any more misleading.
I feel like even if you ascribe to the conservative interpretation, it's easy to see why "triple, but not really" and "add, but don't actually add" are... pretty poor choices of wording if that was really the end goal.
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At the same time, triple the distance doesnt mean that you ignore any previous restriction on the distance you can jump, does it?
In PF2 generally speaking, if a feat allows you to ignore a limitation, it says so clearly.
Pickpocket allows you to steal closely guarded items without suffering the normal penalty for attempting to do so, and it states that pretty clearly.
I can agree that perhaps the feat could do with a bit better wording, obviously this is the case, as despite what some may think, I understand the logic that supports the triple the distance interpretation.
However, I think this is the perfect example of an ambiguous rule. It can be read to mean multiple things, which in this case are drastically different. And so if nothing else, that rule should apply.
A single feat (when paired with Quick Jump anyway), even a legendary 15th level one, should not allow a speed 30 character to reliably move 270 feet in a round ignoring difficult terrain.
If that is not too good to be true, then I dont think any interpretation of any feat is.
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Where are you getting 270?
If someone with a 30 foot speed triples their maximum long jump, that's 90.
If they then spend 2 additional actions per the second paragraph, that adds 30 each time, turning 90 into 150.
Or instead, they can simply jump again for 1 action. Another 90 feet. 90 X3, last time I checked is 270.
Or instead, they can simply jump again for 1 action. Another 90 feet. 90 X3, last time I checked is 270.Where are you getting 270?
If someone with a 30 foot speed triples their maximum long jump, that's 90.
If they then spend 2 additional actions per the second paragraph, that adds 30 each time, turning 90 into 150.
Right, to reiterate an earlier point, that's why Quick Jump seems like a bigger problem than Cloud Jump's wording. Quick Jump on its own is cool. Cloud Jump on its own is cool even if you're not taking the highly conservative interpretation. Put them together and it's a definite mess.
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On the bright side, there are very, very few occasions where a player might need to cover much more than a hundred feet in one turn...