I got bored and so I challenged myself to build a purely mundane Barbarian (no magic items whatsoever) that is somewhat viable. It doesn't have to be as good as a normal build, but Mr. Muscle should be able to survive and dish out some significant damage.
So far I came up with a Vital Strike build:
Human Unchained Barbarian with Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait.
One Level in Titan Fighter and the rest in UBarbarian.
Trait: Surprise Weapon
Feats:
Bonus Feat: Catch Off-Guard
1: Shikigami Style
3: Shikigami Mimicry
5: Shikigami Manipulation
7: Vital Strike
9: Furious Finish
11: Improved Vital Strike
13: Painful Blow
15/16: Greater Vital Strike
Weapon: Large Sledge (8d6 damage with Shikigami Style)
That means a Greater Vital Strike with Furious Finish will hit for some 192 damage. You can craft it out of cryptstone so you can also damage ghosts.
Armor: Noqual full plate (+2 resistance on all saves)
For Rage Cycling, you can pop a pill of Allnight to cycle for the next 8 hours. You can then remove the exhausted condition by using Heart of the Fields. Since it's a drug, you're probably going to get somewhat addicted, so make sure to RP that appropriately.
So far I still have some problems with this build: It lacks a means of flight which it will need in late game to not get outclassed. It is damn feat-starved (I can't even pick Power Attack). And I'd really like to get Throw Anything on top of that since you can use it to throw stuff at people when you can't reach them.
I hope you have some cool ideas to improve on that build. Please share them!
I was just looking at Titan Fighter and Shikigami Style, and I'm impressed.
It does strike me though, that a Butchering Axe does 3d6, and a Titan Fighter could wield a Large Butchering Axe for 4d6, and you don'thave to spend 3 Feats on Shikigami Style Feats.
It also occurs to me that Shikigami Maniupulation requires the use of a Magic Item. A Sledge Hammer is an item you make attack rolls with: it's made for smashing unattended items. You could just put Enhancement Bonuses on your Sledge and save yourself a Feat.
When you said "Painful Blow," did you mean Devastating Strike?
I'd have you take Great Cleave, so you have a good answer against multiple opponents: Great Cleave vs.Multiple Opponents; Vital Strike single opponents.
I see Furious Focus, but I don't see Power Attack.
To your first reply: I also thought about going for multiple attacks but I wasn't sure if it would be more effective. See, you don't get any enhancement Bonus from your weapon to hit and you can't buy a strength belt, which equates to a -8 compared to a normal Barbarian. Also you get a -2 from Titan Fighter. So I figured in the long run it might deal more damage if I go for one big hit at full BAB. That would also leave your move action available every round, so you have little problems with combat mobility. Also, I try to avoid (Su) abilities as much as possible. What do you think will work out better?
To your second reply: The size increase benefit for the Shikigami chain comes from the base feat, Shikigami Style, so it applies to all improvised weapons. A sledge is an equipment item that counts as an improvised Earth breaker and thus deals 2d6 damage. It's not on d20pfsrd, only on aonprd. Same with Painful Blow. You can only find that feat on aonprd. It makes damage from Vital Strike feats count as continuous damage for the purpose of concentration checks. It's great for shutting down enemy spellcasters at high levels since they have to make a ~DC100 concentration check after you hit them if you deal that much damage on Vital Strikes.
Generally the idea behind this whole concept is, that you do not RELY on magic gear to be effective. For example, you can level up Use Magic Device as one of you skills and then in late game get some scrolls of Antimagic field for boss fights, so every (Sp) or (Su) ability from an enemy fails while you are still at full power because you built mundane from the beginning. You could still carry a wand of enlarge person for normal encounters to dish out 12d6x4 per Greater Vital Strike.
Or maybe an Amulet of Quaking Strikes (only aonprd) which would allow you to Vital Strike bomb a whole group of enemies two or three times as day.
I'm sure this is doable, but your defences are going to suffer immensely. AC doesn't scale, so the average PC ends up with +15AC from magical armour/ring/amulet. All your saves end up with +5 from your cloak.
I'd 100% take INVULNERABLE RAGER and try to get (IMPROVED) STALWART. The easiest way to take advantage of it is probably COMBAT EXPERTISE plus RECKLESS ABANDON, so you trade AC for DR (which is fine because your AC already sucks).
Also you'll want SUPERSTION etc for saves, I assume that's pretty standard but can go into it more if needed.
The stats aren't as good, and of course you lose a feat, but being a strix would give you non-magic flight. Being a closet troll is embarrassing even if it never actually gets you killed.
@MisterCharisma: The UBarbarian had better DR than the normal Barbarian. So if you take the Increased DR rage power 3 times you could get the same DR as Invulnerable Rager much earlier. Superstition is an absolute no-brainer. It would be a crime not to pick it. I also read through (improved stalwart) but the problem is that you not only need two feats for it, but also DieHard and Endurance as feat taxes. For a build that is already feat-starved, I just don't see where to fit it in (although it's great).
@Scott Wilhelm: let me walk you through the math with shikigami feats and size increases real quick. First of all, Shikigami Style says
"While in this style, you deal damage with improvised weapons as if they were one size category larger. For every style feat you have that lists Shikigami Style as a prerequisite, treat the improvised weapon as an additional size category larger, to a maximum of three sizes larger than its actual size."
That means that every Shikigami feat gives you an additional effective size increase.
If you increase a weapon's size and have at least 3d6 for damage the weapon deals twice the damage from two sizes ago. That means a large Sledge deals 3d6. With shikigami style 4d6. With Shikigami Mimicry 6d6 and with Shikigami Manipulation 8d6. That means size increases get more powerful the more dice you already have. The increase of the sledge to large size only gives you one extra d6 while the next size increase after 8d6 (for example via a wand of enlarge person) would give you 4 extra d6. And since Vital Strike multiplies dice by a factor, the more size increases you get, the (much) larger the benefit will be. If I use furious finish with GVS this gives 192 damage from vital Strike alone. If I use a wand of enlarge person and then do the same, I'd deal 288 damage.
So while the immediate benefit of Shikigami Manipulation is useless, the size increase it grants by its interaction with Shikigami Style grants us 2d6 bonus damage which become 8d6 with GVS and 48 with Furious Finish. I thought one feat for 48 damage might be worth it.
@avr: Then I would still need another way to remove fatigue/exhaustion
once per day since Heart of the fields is human only. But yeah, racial flight speed would be the easiest way to go.
@MisterCharisma: The UBarbarian had better DR than the normal Barbarian. So if you take the Increased DR rage power 3 times you could get the same DR as Invulnerable Rager much earlier. Superstition is an absolute no-brainer. It would be a crime not to pick it. I also read through (improved stalwart) but the problem is that you not only need two feats for it, but also DieHard and Endurance as feat taxes. For a build that is already feat-starved, I just don't see where to fit it in (although it's great).
If you're willing to dip, one level of UNBREAKABLE FIGHTER gets you the prerequisites for Stalwart.
I thought of this for an unkillable Paladin, but if you can get around Monk/Barbarian alignment issues you could do this:
I put 3 ranks into Acrobatics (defensive fighting = -4 attack / +4 AC).
I at level 3 I dip 1 level of Unchained Monk, take Dodge as my Bonus feat from Monk, and take CRANE STYLE as my level 3 feat (defensive fighting = -2 attack / +5AC)
At level 5 I take a level of Unbreakable Fighter and take Stalwart (defensive fighting = -2 attack / +5 DR)
AT LEVEL 11 I take Improved Stalwart (defensive figting = -2 attack / +10 DR).
Now you don't have to do all the Crane Style stuff if you don't want to (you may not be able to), but if you were able to put that on a Barbarian with Reckless abandon and an already impressive DR (which specifically says it stacks) you have a decent defence without relying on Armour ... because your Armour is going to suck.
I put those dips in because they save a ton of feats for a feat-starved class. You don't have to go unarmoured to get the benefit, you don't care about flurry etc, you're just here fir the bonus feats (again you don't have to go this route, but there are options for feat prereauisites).
@ Scott Wilhelm: going for a trip build seems a good idea though I am not quite sure how to make a build out of it. The Sledge really only makes sense for a Vital Strike build and if you drop the Shikigami feats to make space for trip feats you lose the reason why you wanted them in the first place. As for sleeping in heavy armor: No, I'd not sleep in heavy armor. While it may be mechanically possible I think we can agree that no one in their right mind would do that in real life if they were a knight. Of course, you are more vulnerable if you get ambushed at night, but I guess that's just a risk you have to take.
Heart of the Fields is used to cancel the exhaustion from the drug "Allnight" which lets you ignore all effects of fatigue for 8 hours and then makes you exhausted. For level 1 I would choose scale mail, because it's just the best bang for your buck I think. For midgame to lategame I would choose a noqual full plate. Noqual is a skymetal which has the same effect as mithral plus it gives you a mundane +2 resistance bonus on all saves at the cost of a flat 20% spell failure chance. But since we don't cast that won't really matter.
@MrCharisma: I see the benefit in going for a super defensive build, but that way, you won't really deal much damage. If you go for Unchained Barbarian and pick the Increased DR rage power 3 times instead, you sit at 10 DR/- at level 16. The temporary HP from rage should make you a little more beefy as well. That being said, I would find it more Barbarian-like to focus more on offense than on defense. Of course your AC won't be too good (With noqual full plate and 16 DEX, you will sit at around 22 AC), but you will send everybot flying with your Vital Strikes of doom. On a side note, the reason I'd like to focus on a VS build is, that there is no mundane means of getting pounce. And since most targets will be moving around quite a bit, why not just focus on standard action attacks. This way, you always have a move action to spare for battlefield movement.
@both: I just noticed the Feral Gnasher Barbarian. You could spend your human bonus feat on Racial Heritage (Goblin) and in return this archetype gives you SO MUCH cool stuff. Catch off-guard and throw anything plus Improvised weapon mastery plus increased damage with improvised weapons plus a bite with grab. This is so awesome! If people want to run from you, you just make your aoo as a bite, grab them so they can't run, and hit them with your massive hammer as soon as it's your turn. Grab the Body Bludgeon rage power, so that you can smash people with other people while still dealing ginormous amount of damage.
I see two problems:
Greater Vital Strike with Furious Finish
Furious Finish only works with "the Vital Strike feat", and thus not with Improved/Greater VS.
For Rage Cycling, you can pop a pill of Allnight to cycle for the next 8 hours.
Allnight "eliminates the effects of fatigue", it does not prevent you from having the condition; meaning it doesn't help with rage cycling at all.
I see two problems:
Greater Vital Strike with Furious FinishFurious Finish only works with "the Vital Strike feat", and thus not with Improved/Greater VS.
For Rage Cycling, you can pop a pill of Allnight to cycle for the next 8 hours.Allnight "eliminates the effects of fatigue", it does not prevent you from having the condition; meaning it doesn't help with rage cycling at all.
@ your first statement see here.
I'd agree with Michael Sayre's position here even though he is 'only' an organized play dev. There was a similar debate on the greatsword battler feat from weapon master's handbook. In that case, Vital Strike meant just the benefit of the normal vital strike because the author called out the improved and greater versions explicitly in the advanced benefit. This isn't the case here and it's probably a different author than the one from Greatsword Battler. Thus I see no reason to believe you can't use IVS and GVS.@ your second statement: depending on one's interpretation, being unable to rage is an effect (note: unlike hobgoblin war draught, all-night does NOT state that it removes the penalties) of being fatigued and thus is removed by the drug. That being said, I also think that you could not get exhausted by getting fatigued a second time while under the effects of the drug . But that is just my interpretation and it's certainly up to the GM. It's the same as with the super-ambigous "effects that augment an unarmed strike"-phrase from Ascetic Style that everyone interprets differently which is why it's banned in PFS.
You can remove fatigue via lesser resto, but it won't allow you to ragecycle (which means round 1: start rage, move, furious finish vital strike, round 2:same)
As for the hammer, it is not a weapon (it's a piece of equipment used as an improvised weapon) and thus wouldn't be eligible for Ascetic Style. You wouldn't be able to get weapon focus with improvised weapons as well, but WF is a prerequisite for ascetic style.
I'm envisioning a Fighter/Monk Master of Many Styles using Ascetic-Skikigami-Snake Style! Getting an Attack of Opportunity every time they are attacked and missed!
It wouldn't work with Weapon Mods, and you'd need 8 levels of MoMS since no "multiple style feats" gimmick stacks with others AFAIK.
But a Hinyasi Brawler with one level in MoMS could pull it off. Hinyasi treats improvised weapons as part of the Close Weapon Group, so they can use the Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training (Unarmed Strike)) trick I've mentioned before to use Snake Style with improvised weapons and (Edited) Shikigami Style.
You mention mechanical reasons for not using SU or SP abilities or using magic items, but I assume it's still largely a matter of personal preference and flavor?
If not, why not use magic items but be prepared for when they all get shut off. It's not like having a belt, cloak, amulet, rings and armor will make you less viable when you use a scroll of antimagic; you'll still be way more effective than most of your opponents. You'll just also be less vulnerable when you don't have the scroll up.
You mention mechanical reasons for not using SU or SP abilities or using magic items, but I assume it's still largely a matter of personal preference and flavor?
If not, why not use magic items but be prepared for when they all get shut off. It's not like having a belt, cloak, amulet, rings and armor will make you less viable when you use a scroll of antimagic; you'll still be way more effective than most of your opponents. You'll just also be less vulnerable when you don't have the scroll up.
It all started out as an idea for a Barbarian who finds all magic highly suspicious and thus only uses mundane gear. Expanding on that, I decided to not use any supernatural abilities, since I actually liked the thought of someone that is actually strong and resilient by himself without any supernatural help.
While it is quite manageable with a solid build, I realized there would be big problems in boss fights because enemies can control you so easily with their suggestions and whatever other spells. Thus I figured one could use antimagic field scrolls if sh*t really hits the fan. That triggered my inner power gamer and I immediately thought about getting wands of enlarge person for more damage and other magic stuff. But your post actually reminded me that it all started out for RP reasons, so thank you for that. Maybe I should just accept the risk of being the aim of fancy spells so that I can keep the integrity of my character.
Thus I see no reason to believe you can't use IVS and GVS.
You mean apart from what the feat says? "the Vital Strike feat". Improved and Greater VS do not modify VS, they're completely seperate. They make no mention of Vital Strike whatsoever in their benefits sections.
For comparison, Devastating Strike, from the same book, says "Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike". Notice any difference?Improved Devastating Strike, Mythic Vital Strike, All-Consuming Swing, Blooded Arcane Strike, Faerie's Strike, Grasping Strike, Winter's Strike, Startoss Comet, Startoss Shower, Painful Blow, Cloak And Dagger Tactics, and Cerberus Crush all also call out all three VS feats, and Soulblade and Diabolic Judgment say "any Vital Strike feat". The only feats that only call out VS itself are Furious Finish, Deep Toxin, Staggering Blow, Savage Critical, and Giant's Crush, with the last three being intended for monsters and not PCs.
Quite frankly, Michael Sayre's argumentation makes absolutely no sense (and was promptly dissected by the people in that thread). Indeed, his argumentation discplays a fundamental lack of understanding how these feats work. Not that forum posts had any rule power to begin with.
depending on one's interpretation, being unable to rage is an effect (...) of being fatigued and thus is removed by the drug.
That's not part of fatigue, but rather a limitation build into Rage.
"" CRB pg. 567
That's the effects of fatigue. Do you see Rage mentioned? Because I don't.
(note: unlike hobgoblin war draught, all-night does NOT state that it removes the penalties)
"" CRB pg. 12 To highlight the differences, being unable to charge is an "effect" of fatigue that's removed by Allnight, but not by Hobgoblin War Draught.
Rage checks for the condition, not its effects. Allnight does remove the effects, not the condition.
But a Hinyasi Brawler with one level in MoMS could pull it off.
Sadly, that archetype is incompatible with Shikigami Style - "[The brawler] deals damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon." This is like a Warpriest's Sacred Weapon in that it overrides the weapon damage, so any increase from the style (and from having a large weapon) gets ignored.
For comparison, Devastating Strike, from the same book, says "Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike". Notice any difference?
Improved Devastating Strike, Mythic Vital Strike, All-Consuming Swing, Blooded Arcane Strike, Faerie's Strike, Grasping Strike, Winter's Strike, Startoss Comet, Startoss Shower, Painful Blow, Cloak And Dagger Tactics, and Cerberus Crush all also call out all three VS feats, and Soulblade and Diabolic Judgment say "any Vital Strike feat". The only feats that only call out VS itself are Furious Finish, Deep Toxin, Staggering Blow, Savage Critical, and Giant's Crush, with the last three being intended for monsters and not PCs."" CRB pg. 567
That's the effects of fatigue. Do you see Rage mentioned? Because I don't....
Thanks for the expansive reply. Well I guess that's a no-no for Rage Cycling and Furious Finish then (although this makes FF a really bad feat). But without furious finish and any other once-per-rage powers, I won't need rage cycling anyways. Time to get myself 48 d6 dice lol.
Eh, it's not necessarily a "No", it's a "talk to your GM".
It looks to me like the kind if feat that would usually specify if it doesn't work with Improved/Greater-X, so it's an anomaly either way. Derklord is correct only because the default is to assume you can't unless it specifically says you can. By not specifying, it accidently specified, but if it HAD specified it could have gone either way.
Show the details to your GM, as the decision is reaply up to them. I'd allow it, especially on a character designed to ignore the most powerful aspects of the game.
Also if you want to make your own shikigami build, the best bang for your buck "weapon" I've been able to find are minor metamagic rods of Mercy or any of the other 0 level metamagic rods. For a cost of 1,500gp with Shikigami Manipulation they become an improvised +4 light mace. For a medium sized creature with 3 shikigami feats that is 4d6+4 base damage.
That's actually pretty amazing. With Improvised Weapon mastery, this gets a 19-20/x2 range. Then use gloves of improvised might with keen +1 and you can two-weapon fight with two of those suckers who now crit on a 17. While the enhancement bonuses from both sources won't stack, the special abilities still do. Enlarge Person will make this 6d6+4 for even more damage. As a light mace, the gloves could even grant them agile so that you can make it a Dex build.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Thanks for the expansive reply.
I think I've argued with stubborn people more interested in winning an argument then with the truth so much that your reply actually surprises me. Therefore I apologize for the snippy parts of my last post!
For a cost of 1,500gp with Shikigami Manipulation they become an improvised +4 light mace. For a medium sized creature with 3 shikigami feats that is 4d6+4 base damage.
Correction: 3d6 (starting at 1d6 makes the first increase just one step). Pretty low for a Shikigami build, actually, although having a +4 weapon for a lower price then a regular +1 weapon obvious has upsides.
Well then, Warpriests don't have to use their Sacred Weapon Damage. A Level 1 Warpriest with Weapon Focus Greatsword does 2d6 with the Greatsword, not 1d6, not unless they want to do the lesser Damage.
I mentioned Warpriest's Sacred Weapon as an easy explanation how it works. What part of that makes you think that the abilities must be exactly 100% identical?
The same is true of Flurry of Blows.
They had to FAQ it, and then afterwards still went on and errata'd is, because as written it didn't work that way. You're actually making my case, here.
Class abilities are not meant to be curses.
Oracles literally get a curse from one of their class features (aptly named "Oracle's Curse"). Monks, Druids, and Shifters have limitations on what they can wear. Paladins have limitations on what they can do. Wizards can take specialization that makes it harder for them to prepare a large number of spells. Mutagens impose a penalty, and the upgrades even increase those.
So no, not every class feature is supposted to be an upgrade in all situations, some are deliberately crafted to be a trade-off. Yes, a Hinyasi deals less damage with a sledge hammer, but they can flurry with it, increasing the total damage in a full attack.