Seeking help for a Wizard build


Advice


Hi All,

I'd like to receive your comments and recommendations on the wizard build below that I'm playing in the Age of Ashes AP. Only Core Rulebook is allowed as surce.

I believe that the class feats advancement is quite optimal, while I think not all the General, Skill or Ancetry feats are the best options.

I'd like to play a Wizard that is the wise man in the group (I'll be Legendary in 6 out of 8 skills for Recall Knowledge and Trained in 1. I'd like to find place for Clever Improviser so that I can Recall KNowledge in all the Lores) and the one able to craft what the party could need.

Class: Wizard
Ancestry: Human
Background: Tinker -> Specialty Crafting (specialty ???)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 14 | CON 12 | INT 18 | WIS 16 | CHA 8

Level 1
Ancestry: General Training -> Canny Acumen -> Perception
Heritage: Versatile Heritage -> Incredible Initiative
Class: Reach Spell
Arcane School: Universalist
Arcane Thesis: Improved Familiar Attunement
Arcane Bond
Drain Bonded Item

Level 2
Class: Alchemist Dedication -> Alchemical Crafting
Skill: Recognize Spell
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Expert

Level 3
General: Magical Shorthand

Level 4
Skill: Trick Magic Item
Class: Enhanced Familiar

Level 5
Ancestry: Natural Ambition -> Widen spell
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Expert
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 16 | CON 14 | INT 19 | WIS 18 | CHA 8

Level 6
Skill: Magical Crafting
Class: Expert Alchemy

Level 7
General: Quick Recognition
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Master

Level 8
Skill: Quick Identification
Class: Bond Conservation

Level 9
Ancestry: Multitalented -> Rogue Dedication -> Inventor
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Master

Level 10
Class: Scroll Savant
Skill: Impeccable Crafter (still missing the specialty from Specialty Crafting)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 18 | CON 16 | INT 20 | WIS 19 | CHA 8

Level 11
General: Assurance -> Crafting
Skill Increase: Society -> Expert

Level 12
Skill: Multilingual
Class: Master Alchemy

Level 13
Ancestry -> General Training -> Toughness
Skill Increase: Society -> Master

Level 14
Skill: Natural Medicine
Class: Superior Bond

Level 15
General: Unified Theory
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Legendary
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 19 | CON 18 | INT 21 | WIS 20 | CHA 8

Level 16
Skill: Dubious Knowledge
Class: Effortless Concentration

Level 17
Ancestry: General Training -> Diehard
Skill Increase: Crefting -> Legendary

Level 18
Class: Reprepare Spell
Skill: Craft Anything

Level 19
General: Legendary Linguistic
Skill Increase: Society -> Legendary

Level 20
Class: Archwizard's Might
Skill: Legendary Codebreaker
Abilities: STR 10 | DEX 20 | CON 18 | INT 22 | WIS 20 | CHA 10


In the meantime I made a second thought on the build and changed some feats: I have now place for Clever Improviser but I have now freed levels 16 and 17 considering I removed Toughness and Diehard.

Class: Wizard
Ancestry: Human
Background: Tinker -> Specialty Crafting (specialty ???)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 14 | CON 12 | INT 18 | WIS 16 | CHA 8

Level 1
Ancestry: General Training -> Canny Acumen -> Perception
Heritage: Versatile Heritage -> Incredible Initiative
Class: Reach Spell
Arcane School: Universalist
Arcane Thesis: Improved Familiar Attunement
Arcane Bond
Drain Bonded Item

Level 2
Class: Alchemist Dedication -> Alchemical Crafting
Skill: Recognize Spell
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Expert

Level 3
General: Magical Shorthand

Level 4
Skill: Trick Magic Item
Class: Enhanced Familiar

Level 5
Ancestry: Natural Ambition -> Widen spell
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Expert
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 16 | CON 14 | INT 19 | WIS 18 | CHA 8

Level 6
Skill: Magical Crafting
Class: Expert Alchemy

Level 7
General: Quick Recognition
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Master

Level 8
Skill: Quick Identification Assurance -> Crafting
Class: Bond Conservation

Level 9
Ancestry: Multitalented -> Rogue Dedication -> Inventor
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Master

Level 10
Class: Scroll Savant
Skill: Impeccable Crafter (still missing the specialty from Specialty Crafting)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 18 | CON 16 | INT 20 | WIS 19 | CHA 8

Level 11
General: Assurance -> Crafting Multilingual
Skill Increase: Society -> Expert

Level 12
Skill: Multilingual Dubious Knowledge
Class: Master Alchemy

Level 13
Ancestry: General Training -> Toughness Clever Improviser -> Untrained Improvisation
Skill Increase: Society -> Master

Level 14
Skill: Natural Medicine Quick Identification
Class: Superior Bond

Level 15
General: Unified Theory
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Legendary
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 19 | CON 18 | INT 21 | WIS 20 | CHA 8

Level 16
Skill: Dubious Knowledge
Class: Effortless Concentration

Level 17
Ancestry: General Training -> Diehard
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Legendary

Level 18
Class: Reprepare Spell
Skill: Craft Anything

Level 19
General: Legendary Linguistic
Skill Increase: Society -> Legendary

Level 20
Class: Archwizard's Might
Skill: Legendary Codebreaker
Abilities: STR 10 | DEX 20 | CON 18 | INT 22 | WIS 20 | CHA 10

Thank you all for your time!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Your stat array is confusing me here.

Why do you have two stats at 8 on a Human?


Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Your stat array is confusing me here.

Why do you have two stats at 8 on a Human?

I took two voluntary flaws so to have a third free boost (DEX+INT+WIS)


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Unified Theory doesn't make you Legendary in three skills. It's only for checks related to traditions. Spell recognition and magic items identification, mostly. But you'll still be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion.


SuperBidi wrote:
Unified Theory doesn't make you Legendary in three skills. It's only for checks related to traditions. Spell recognition and magic items identification, mostly. But you'll still be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion.

I'll be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion, but I can use Arcana, where I'll be Legendary, in place if any of the three.

Scarab Sages

Hi, I also play a wizard - in PFS! First of many comments: For Specialty Crafting, I recommend Stonemasonry. The Player's Guide makes clear you can rebuild Citadel Altaerein, which is made of stone. For a later skill feat, perhaps Specialty Crafting in Woodworking, which could possibly come in handy for constructing wooden buildings.


b8620271 wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Unified Theory doesn't make you Legendary in three skills. It's only for checks related to traditions. Spell recognition and magic items identification, mostly. But you'll still be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion.
I'll be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion, but I can use Arcana, where I'll be Legendary, in place if any of the three.

"Whenever you use an action or a skill feat that requires a Nature, Occultism, or Religion check, depending on the magic tradition, you can use Arcana instead."

As stated, only for checks asking for a Nature, Occultims or Religion check depending on the magic tradition. So, if you have to recognize a spell, it's a check depending on the magic tradition, and you can roll Arcana. If you want to recognize an undead, it's a Religion check and you'll roll Religion.

Scarab Sages

SuperBidi wrote:
b8620271 wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Unified Theory doesn't make you Legendary in three skills. It's only for checks related to traditions. Spell recognition and magic items identification, mostly. But you'll still be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion.
I'll be Trained in Nature, Occultism and Religion, but I can use Arcana, where I'll be Legendary, in place if any of the three.

"Whenever you use an action or a skill feat that requires a Nature, Occultism, or Religion check, depending on the magic tradition, you can use Arcana instead."

As stated, only for checks asking for a Nature, Occultims or Religion check depending on the magic tradition. So, if you have to recognize a spell, it's a check depending on the magic tradition, and you can roll Arcana. If you want to recognize an undead, it's a Religion check and you'll roll Religion.

I think what SuperBidi descibes is likely RAI, but the Unified Theory feat is so poorly-worded that I think the OP's interpretation is RAW.

For OP's wizard's second-level skill feat, Specialty Crafting in Alchemy is a better choice than Recognize Spell, since it makes the check to Craft alchemical items more likely to suceed at low levels and/or make the process cheaper.


It’s not poorly worded, it is specifically worded. SuperBidi is correct to make the distinction.

Scarab Sages

Your class feat selection is good for a crafting-focused wizard, but I suggest taking Metamagic Mastery instead of Archwizard's Might for your 20th-level feat. Metamagic Mastery will help you get the most out of Reach Spell and especially Bond Conservation.

Also, your 14th-level feat choice Superior Bond only grants you a single additional lower-level spell each day. A better choice would be a second rogue multiclass feat. I personally like Evasiveness, but could choose any rogue multiclass feat you like.

Finally, instead of using selecting the ancestry feat Natural Ambition to get Widen Spell, select General Training to acquire Toughness and forget Widen Spell entirely. It's too situational and only works for a relatively small number of spells, but Toughness will keep your wizard alive.

Those are my thoughts on the class feats you chose. Ancestry options and General/Skill feats are a different story.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
For OP's wizard's second-level skill feat, Specialty Crafting in Alchemy is a better choice than Recognize Spell, since it makes the check to Craft alchemical items more likely to suceed at low levels and/or make the process cheaper.

I already have Specialty Crafting from the Tinker background, but it seems to me that the feat give you a bonus on the check only when crafting and not when trying to identify an alchemical item.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Your class feat selection is good for a crafting-focused wizard, but I suggest taking Metamagic Mastery instead of Archwizard's Might for your 20th-level feat. Metamagic Mastery will help you get the most out of Reach Spell and especially Bond Conservation.

I see MM a little limited in my build, with not so many metamagic feats and the, ending with only a 10th level spell, give me the impression that I'm giving up on something.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Also, your 14th-level feat choice Superior Bond only grants you a single additional lower-level spell each day. A better choice would be a second rogue multiclass feat. I personally like Evasiveness, but could choose any rogue multiclass feat you like.

It's a single lower level spell, but it's one more spell for the universalist, that has less spells compared to a specialist. I'll think on it: I like Skill Mastery.

NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Finally, instead of using selecting the ancestry feat Natural Ambition to get Widen Spell, select General Training to acquire Toughness and forget Widen Spell entirely. It's too situational and only works for a relatively small number of spells, but Toughness will keep your wizard alive.

I'm already thinking to change Natural Ambition for Genera Training to acquire Adopted Ancestry Elf and later select Nimble Elf and Ageless Patience.

Scarab Sages

I think you would get use out of Metamagic Mastery since you already have both metamagic feats that are worth having.

Reach Spell keeps your character out of melee combat, which means you could focus less on Dexterity. With Metamagic Mastery, you could spend your third action moving, using Recall Knowledge or using Demoralize (although using a Demoralize as a wizard is another discussion.)

The reason Metamagic Mastery is better than Archwizard's Might, in my opinion, is how it interacts with Bond Conservation. MM makes "cascade casting" highly practical, which increases your number of spells per day dramatically and renders Superior Bond completely irrelevant. Old_Man_Robot analyzed this in his wizard class guide.

You can click on his profile above to find it (no idea how to post links on this site). It's worth reading if you have the time, btw.

Verdant Wheel

You pick up Rogue Dedication at 9.

Would you be willing to trade some high level Wizard feats for Skill Mastery to get some back-end skill proficiency boosts?


rainzax wrote:

You pick up Rogue Dedication at 9.

Would you be willing to trade some high level Wizard feats for Skill Mastery to get some back-end skill proficiency boosts?

I took Rogue Dedication because is the same as Natural Skill (Trained in 2 skills) plus a skill feat, and allows me to anticipate Inventor from level 10.

I like the Skill Mastery feat but I believe that the wizard feats are better in this case. Anyway as wrote few post above, I could think to replace Superior Bond.

Scarab Sages

b8620271 wrote:
I already have Specialty Crafting from the Tinker background, but it seems to me that the feat give you a bonus on the check only when crafting and not when trying to identify an alchemical item.

That’s true. In that case, you should probably keep Recognize Spell as your second-level skill feat unless you want Specialty Crafting for two kinds of items, like Alchemy AND Stonemasonry.

It is worthwhile to select Specialty Crafting (Alchemy) as your background skill feat, but remember you won’t be able to actually Craft alchemical items until you receive Alchemical Crafting at 2nd level. Normally I’d recommend this outright, but repairing Citadel Altaerein sounds so cool to me.

How you plan to spend Downtime? If you want to repair Citadel Altaerein more than Craft alchemical items, then consider choosing Specialty Crafting (Stonemasonry) for you backgrounds skill and ask your GM if the bonus it grants you will apply to repairing the castle. If you would rather Craft alchemical items in your Downtime, then Specialty Crafting (Alchemy) makes the most sense.

You could select both variations of Specialty Crafting at the cost of a precious skill feat. The problem is one of diminishing returns: pursuing both alchemy and castle repair means each project receives fewer downtime days devoted to it than if you just chose one.

Remember that you do not need either variation of the Specialty Crafting feat in order to Craft alchemical items or to repair Citadel Altaerein, but the feat means your limited number of Downtime days are less likely to be wasted.

Scarab Sages

b8620271 wrote:
I'm already thinking to change Natural Ambition for Genera Training to acquire Adopted Ancestry Elf and later select Nimble Elf and Ageless Patience.

As for your ancestry options, I recommend you stay with Versatile Human or play a Halfling

The two Elf feats you wanted are not worth the price. Nimble Elf is just Fleet, so you’re spending a general feat and an ancestry feat to get the equivalent of one general feat. Also, the circumstance bonus Ageless Patience provides to skill checks won’t stack with the circumstance bonus to Craft checks provided by Specialty Crafting, it eats up Downtime besides and is too situational for what it costs. In my opinion, very few ancestries have feats that are better than a human’s for your build that relies so much on general feats.

I know this is out of left field, but with a halfling you could still have your ancestry boots to DEX, INT, and WIS without dumping CHA. CHA is useful for a wizard if you intend to use Intimidation to Demoralize in combat (an option I recommend) and if your party does not have a trained negotiator. Halflings have interesting Heritages and several of their ancestry feats are suited for rogue-like characters like yours.The key is to take Cultural Adaptability at 5th level to get access to human ancestry feats, get General Training, then choose human ancestry feats from that point on. Although, Ceaseless Shadows looks fun at higher levels.

It all depends on what your party composition is.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
b8620271 wrote:
I'm already thinking to change Natural Ambition for Genera Training to acquire Adopted Ancestry Elf and later select Nimble Elf and Ageless Patience.
As for your ancestry options, I recommend you stay with Versatile Human or play a Halfling

I was referring to Natural Ambition at level 5. I will stay with Versatile Human for Incredile Initiative, that paired with Canny Acumen Perception will increase my chances to start earlier iduring the encounters.

Actually I'm at this point:

Class: Wizard
Ancestry: Human
Background: Tinker -> Specialty Crafting (specialty ???)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 14 | CON 12 | INT 18 | WIS 16 | CHA 8

Level 1
Ancestry: General Training -> Canny Acumen -> Perception
Heritage: Versatile Heritage -> Incredible Initiative
Class: Reach Spell
Arcane School: Universalist
Arcane Thesis: Improved Familiar Attunement
Arcane Bond
Drain Bonded Item

Level 2
Class: Alchemist Dedication -> Alchemical Crafting
Skill: Recognize Spell
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Expert

Level 3
General: Magical Shorthand

Level 4
Skill: Trick Magic Item
Class: Enhanced Familiar

Level 5
Ancestry: ???
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Expert
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 16 | CON 14 | INT 19 | WIS 18 | CHA 8

Level 6
Skill: Magical Crafting
Class: Expert Alchemy

Level 7
General: Quick Recognition
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Master

Level 8
Skill: Assurance -> Crafting
Class: Bond Conservation

Level 9
Ancestry: Multitalented -> Rogue Dedication -> Inventor
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Master

Level 10
Class: Scroll Savant
Skill: Impeccable Crafter (specialty ???)
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 18 | CON 16 | INT 20 | WIS 19 | CHA 8

Level 11
General: ???
Skill Increase: Society -> Expert

Level 12
Skill: ???
Class: Master Alchemy

Level 13
Ancestry: General Training -> Multilingual
Skill Increase: Society -> Master

Level 14
Skill: ???
Class: Superior Bond

Level 15
General: Unified Theory
Skill Increase: Arcana -> Legendary
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 19 | CON 18 | INT 21 | WIS 20 | CHA 8

Level 16
Skill: ???
Class: Effortless Concentration

Level 17
Ancestry: ???
Skill Increase: Crafting -> Legendary

Level 18
Class: Reprepare Spell
Skill: Craft Anything

Level 19
General: Legendary Linguistic
Skill Increase: Society -> Legendary

Level 20
Class: Archwizard's Might
Skill: ???
Abilities: STR 10 | DEX 20 | CON 18 | INT 22 | WIS 20 | CHA 10

I tried to take the feats at soon as I met the prerequisites (Magical Shorthand, Inventor, Unified Theory) or obtained an increse (Multilingual).

Any suggestion on the missing feats?

Scarab Sages

Here are my quick suggestions for missing feats:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Toughness
Level 11 General Feat: Fleet
Level 12 Skill Feat: Arcane Sense
Level 14 Skill Feat: Streetwise
Level 16 Skill Feat: Quick Identification
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: Clever Improviser
Level 20 Skill Feat: Multilingual


NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Here are my quick suggestions for missing feats:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Toughness
Level 11 General Feat: Fleet
Level 12 Skill Feat: Arcane Sense
Level 14 Skill Feat: Streetwise
Level 16 Skill Feat: Quick Identification
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: Clever Improviser
Level 20 Skill Feat: Multilingual

Thank you NECR0G1ANT, my comments on your suggestions:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Toughness | was thinking the same
Level 11 General Feat: Fleet | yes, or maybe Fast Recovery?
Level 12 Skill Feat: Arcane Sense | really don't like this here, as cantrip I can already heightened it to 4th level
Level 14 Skill Feat: Streetwise | I don't see this fitting in the concept of my wizard. Maybe Hefty Hauler as 12 or 14 feat?!
Level 16 Skill Feat: Quick Identification | surely a feat I'd like to have
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: Clever Improviser | by level 20 I'll have only 2 skills not trained, probably Deception and Intimidation, I was thinking about another General Training - Diehard
Level 20 Skill Feat: Multilingual | a second time? If anything better, I was thinking about Legendary Codebreaker, I am legendary in Society after all...

Or, I was thinking to something like this:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Adopted Anchestry - Dwarf
Level 11 General Feat: Toughness
Level 12 Skill Feat: Hefty Hauler
Level 14 Skill Feat: Quick Identificatione
Level 16 Skill Feat: ???
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: Mountain's Stoutness
Level 20 Skill Feat: Legendary Codebreaker

Scarab Sages

Arcane Sense frees up a valuable cantrip slot, since you no longer have to prepare Detect Magic.
Streetwise makes you great at Gather Information, which I reckon will come in handy during Age of Ashes.
Both are fine choices for your Level 16 Skill Feat

Adopted Ancestry is a bad choice unless you take multiple feats from the new ancestry. You're only taking one - Mountain's Stoutness. Also, it's odd to spend a fifth-level feat to access dwarf ancestry feats, but not actually take any until Level 17. I recommend General Training, then taking your choice of Toughness, Fleet, Feather Step or Fast Recovery.

Otherwise, your general feats look fine.


NECR0G1ANT wrote:

Streetwise makes you great at Gather Information, which I reckon will come in handy during Age of Ashes.

Both are fine choices for your Level 16 Skill Feat

At level 16 doesn’t come in play too late in the progression, both of character and of AoA, to prove itself useful?

With so few skills that will increase from training the other pick that could take advantage of your skill selection is the Courtly Grace - Connections chain


NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Arcane Sense frees up a valuable cantrip slot, since you no longer have to prepare Detect Magic.

I already have an additional cantrip via Cantrip Connection and then I'm planning to use Inventor to obtain the Staff of Divination, and so Detect Magic.

Scarab Sages

b8620271 wrote:
NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Arcane Sense frees up a valuable cantrip slot, since you no longer have to prepare Detect Magic.
I already have an additional cantrip via Cantrip Connection and then I'm planning to use Inventor to obtain the Staff of Divination, and so Detect Magic.

Ah, Arcane Sense won't help you then. Then choose a 1st-level skill feat from one of the skills you're only Trained in.


So I'm thinking to complete my wizard as follow:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Toughness
Level 11 General Feat: Fast Recovery
Level 12 Skill Feat: Hefty Hauler
Level 14 Skill Feat: Quick Identification
Level 16 Skill Feat: Doubious Knowledge
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Diehard
Level 20 Skill Feat: Legendary Codebreaker

Any additional suggestion?

Scarab Sages

b8620271 wrote:

So I'm thinking to complete my wizard as follow:

Level 5 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Toughness
Level 11 General Feat: Fast Recovery
Level 12 Skill Feat: Hefty Hauler
Level 14 Skill Feat: Quick Identification
Level 16 Skill Feat: Doubious Knowledge
Level 17 Ancestry Feat: General Training - Diehard
Level 20 Skill Feat: Legendary Codebreaker

Any additional suggestion?

Looks good to me. Enjoy Age of Ashes!


I'm curious why such a high wisdom modifier? Is it a prereq to one of the abilities you are running, feeds well off of something you have in there or is it just because you want to roleplay the group wiseman?

I ask because usually, I run with 6 - 10 wisdom in my wizard builds. There isn't much benefit to high wisdom in a wizard as a general rule.

Also, my fiance is currently running a mystic theurge so if you did throw something in that build the scales well because of wisdom, it might be useful for her current build.


Initiative is always welcome on a spellcaster.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Innkeeper: Again, this is Second Edition. Initiative is in general a Perception check, so Wisdom typically goes with Initiative, instead of Dexterity.


As others already pointed out, act first is good for a spellcaster, and in PF2 initiative is most of the time a Perception check, and so Wisdom is the ability to riase.

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