Been on a Pathfinder Hiatus, and I used to play Alchemist and Magus before. Someone suggested I try Occultist, going for a bit more martial angle via trappings of the warrior, probably half-elf with the bonus mental points favoured bonus.
Are there things you wish you knew when you started, but after having played a while?
DEX is a trap attribute
DEX is a trap attribute
How so? I mean, I don't mind but I always heard dex was the go to stat outside 2-hander builds.
DEX is a trap attribute
Ugh. This again. Can't you just back up your opinions with arguments from the start instead of baiting replies?
How so? I mean, I don't mind but I always heard dex was the go to stat outside 2-hander builds.
You'll be fighting with a shield because of the Trappings but that doesn't mean you can't go 2-handed.
Shield Brace would allow you to use a Polearm/Spear with your shield, which is pretty great since the Transmutation implement favors single-weapon builds anyway. It would require two more feats than a simple Sword-n-Shield build, but grants you reach and all the other damage benefits of a two-handed weapon.If you spend 1,500 GP on a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone you gain proficiency with the Elven Branched Spear which is a finessable reach weapon, allowing you to be Dex-based while benefiting from 1.5x Power Attack.
A comparable Strength build could use the 18-20 reach polearm (the Fauchard), have slightly more damage from Strength, and benefit from Enlarge Person.
I always heard dex was the go to stat outside 2-hander builds.
That's at best a gross oversimplification. It's something to consider for many builds, but there are plenty of non-twohanded builds that make strength work well.
People think having a single ability score apply to a lot of things is automatically great, but that's not really the case. Therre's a cost that has to be considered, and one should take a close look at what the gain actually is. People often think that dex-builds have higher AC, but unless you have a limitation that forces you to wear light armor, that is generally not the case - a mithral shirt with 22 dex has the same net AC as a full-plate with 12 dex. You won't have the latter at 1st level, but then again, you won't have the former, either.
What you gain from going dex-based is touch-AC, Reflex save, and initiative.
What you lose is at least one feat, either a weapon enchantment or another feat, flatfooted-AC, the ability to two-hand a weapon, and a greater selection of weapons.
Now, both are perfectly playable; in general, dex-based build are a bit more rounded, while doing less damage. Dex-builds often favor high-crit weapons, especially one-handed builds, but contrary to popular believe, that is not an upside in itself (often a weapon with higher base damage would be stronger), although it can be if you have other abilities that rely or greatly profit from crits, like Swashbuckler and Magus do.
Occultist especially has the issue that the Transmutation Implement's Size Alteration ability is much better on a strength-based character, and, of course, they have no issue with wearing armor (and come with medium armor proficiency).
For my Occultist I looked at the list of Focus Powers (and spells) and realised I was probably going to use a fair number of Standard Actions. For this reason I went with a reach build, so I can cast on my turn and make AoOs on someone else's turn. This isn't strictly necessary, but you'd want to choose your Focus Powers more carefully if you aren't going this route.
The other thing I've found is that Trappings really isn't necessary to keep your damage up. I don't have Trappings, and the only combat feat I have is Combat Reflexes and I've kept up so far (I'm fairly reliant on Legacy Weapon for Bane, so if I fail my knowledge checks I'm a lot less effective). I'm only 7th level, so this might not hold true for ever, but at least in theory it holds till level 12 or so. This isn't to say you shouldn't take Trappings, just that you can focus some of your energy on defence/utility, rather than focusing everything on offence.
The other thing is to ask what other implements you're planning on taking? You've got Abjuration, Transmutation and Trappings of the Warrior. I'm assuming you're going to at least level 10, so you should have two other implements to choose (also for the record I'd take Trappings at level 6, you don't really need it at level 2).
To be fair taking trappings isn’t exactly not focusing on defence. Given it calls for abjuration, the focus powers. For example mind barrier and energy shield are very cool and potentially powerful abilities.
DEX is a trap attribute
Not for Archery Trappings Occultists, just use a buckler for your abjuration implement and just shoot people with a bow. Half-Elves can get hornbow proficiency from an alternate racial feature.
Sure, you don't have bonus feats and multishot comes on late, but the rest of the class makes up for it.
To be fair taking trappings isn’t exactly not focusing on defence. Given it calls for abjuration, the focus powers. For example mind barrier and energy shield are very cool and potentially powerful abilities.
Won't they drain a lot of points?
For my Occultist I looked at the list of Focus Powers (and spells) and realised I was probably going to use a fair number of Standard Actions. For this reason I went with a reach build, so I can cast on my turn and make AoOs on someone else's turn. This isn't strictly necessary, but you'd want to choose your Focus Powers more carefully if you aren't going this route.
The other thing I've found is that Trappings really isn't necessary to keep your damage up. I don't have Trappings, and the only combat feat I have is Combat Reflexes and I've kept up so far (I'm fairly reliant on Legacy Weapon for Bane, so if I fail my knowledge checks I'm a lot less effective). I'm only 7th level, so this might not hold true for ever, but at least in theory it holds till level 12 or so. This isn't to say you shouldn't take Trappings, just that you can focus some of your energy on defence/utility, rather than focusing everything on offence.
The other thing is to ask what other implements you're planning on taking? You've got Abjuration, Transmutation and Trappings of the Warrior. I'm assuming you're going to at least level 10, so you should have two other implements to choose (also for the record I'd take Trappings at level 6, you don't really need it at level 2).
I was considering Enchantment for the Charisma resonant buff, allowing me to play Face now and then Illusion for Shadow Beast and the utility.
If it goes past 10, I might test mortal usher prc?
To be fair taking trappings isn’t exactly not focusing on defence. Given it calls for abjuration, the focus powers. For example mind barrier and energy shield are very cool and potentially powerful abilities.Won't they drain a lot of points?
@Chromantic Durgon <3 - You're right. My point wasn't that you need more defence, just that you probably don't really need to focus offence. Sorry off that wasn't clear.
@Corvo Spiritwind - The way Panoplies work is that you count the points already invested in the relevant implements (Transmutation & Abjuration) toward your panoply (Trappings of the Warrior).
Let's say you have 10 Mental Focus points. If you put 6 points in Transmutation and 4 points in Abjuration you'd get all the benefits of both those implements PLUS the benefits of having 10 points invested in Trappings of the Warrior. This means you're effectively getting to double dip for resonant powers for each of the relevant implements.
Let's say you're a level 10 Occultist with Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation implements, and the panoplies Saint's Holy Regalia and Trappings of the Warrior. Now every point in Transmutation and Abjuration counts toward Trappings, and every point in Abjuration and and Conjuration counts towards Saint's Holy Regalia. This would mean you're getting double value from Conjuration and Transmutation, and tripple value from Abjuration.
Note also that you spend points from the implements in orde et to activat the Panoply powers, and if one implement runs out you'd lose the benefit of the panoply, eg. If our 10th level occultist used his last point from Abjuration then you'd lose the resonant powers from Abjuration, Saint's Holy Regalia and Trappings of the Warrior all at the same time.
To be fair taking trappings isn’t exactly not focusing on defence. Given it calls for abjuration, the focus powers. For example mind barrier and energy shield are very cool and potentially powerful abilities.Won't they drain a lot of points?
For my Occultist I looked at the list of Focus Powers (and spells) and realised I was probably going to use a fair number of Standard Actions. For this reason I went with a reach build, so I can cast on my turn and make AoOs on someone else's turn. This isn't strictly necessary, but you'd want to choose your Focus Powers more carefully if you aren't going this route.
The other thing I've found is that Trappings really isn't necessary to keep your damage up. I don't have Trappings, and the only combat feat I have is Combat Reflexes and I've kept up so far (I'm fairly reliant on Legacy Weapon for Bane, so if I fail my knowledge checks I'm a lot less effective). I'm only 7th level, so this might not hold true for ever, but at least in theory it holds till level 12 or so. This isn't to say you shouldn't take Trappings, just that you can focus some of your energy on defence/utility, rather than focusing everything on offence.
The other thing is to ask what other implements you're planning on taking? You've got Abjuration, Transmutation and Trappings of the Warrior. I'm assuming you're going to at least level 10, so you should have two other implements to choose (also for the record I'd take Trappings at level 6, you don't really need it at level 2).
I was considering Enchantment for the Charisma resonant buff, allowing me to play Face now and then Illusion for Shadow Beast and the utility.
If it goes past 10, I might test mortal usher prc?
Resonant bonuses are based on how many points you put in at the start, not how many are in at any given time. Your expected to use the points throughout the day. As long as you leave at least 1 in there.
Let's say you're a level 10 Occultist with Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation implements, and the panoplies Saint's Holy Regalia and Trappings of the Warrior. Now every point in Transmutation and Abjuration counts toward Trappings, and every point in Abjuration and and Conjuration counts towards Saint's Holy Regalia. This would mean you're getting double value from Conjuration and Transmutation, and tripple value from Abjuration.
The other stuff was handy, but this one caught my eye. Wouldn't trappings require that you put points in Abjuration (Shield) while the Saint's would require Abjuration (holy symbol), so you'd have to split the points between the two implements, getting full points to abjuration, but separate towards trapping and saint's?
Oh, yes it would =P
You could get a reliquary shield though. Would that work? What are people's thoughts?
(I think you're right, you wouldn't get both)
EDIT: Even if it does work (which - now that you mention it - I don't think it does) I don't think you need to do this. Having one Panoply lets you get the mostresonant powers from your Mental focus, but you really don't need two. I'd just take the implements that you want.