Maybe I'm blind, but I can't seem to find any spells to animated a horde of undead minions. There doesn't seem to be an "animate dead" spell like in 1e. There's not a Summon Undead spell, even though everything else seems to be summonable. Am I missing something?
About the only way I can find is to cast Ghoulish Cravings to infect someone with Ghoul Fever, wait for them to die, then cast Bind Undead after they rise as a ghoul at midnight.
It was actually moved over to a ritual.
The one place in the book I didn't look! Thank you!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A few things to note:
1) It's uncommon, so access is restricted. You're GM has to choose to allow it.
2) Undead created with it have the minion trait if your successful enough, or don't follow your directions.
2b) Minions do nothing if you don't give them a direct order as at least one action on your turn. These consequently means no undead hordes. You can control 3 undead per turn, maximum.
re: 2b) the lead designer directly addressed undead horde issue, stating they couldn't fit it in Core, but they have different solution planned for future product (could be APG?) which IMHO sounds like swarm/troop type mechanic.
re: 2b) the lead designer directly addressed undead horde issue, stating they couldn't fit it in Core, but they have different solution planned for future product (could be APG?) which IMHO sounds like swarm/troop type mechanic.
That would be excellent, because while I understand the logic of building monsters/npcs separately for ease, fun, and balance, it would feel weird to have an evil necromancer be able to command as many undead as he wants (or well, a lot) because I say he can while the party's evil necromancer cannot simply because he's not one of the DMs funny accents. It can be an uncommon ability, of course, but it would nice to have a balanced frame of reference for: "If it's cool with you for PCs to do this, here's a fun way for them to do it."
Exactly. And it can apply to other things too, a Druid with animal pack etc. Personally, having a ritual to "bind" a pack of animals from the area feels more engaging to me than the "Summon Pokemon" style of Druid casting, so a mechanic for ritual to "bind" a pack/horde seems appealing. I think Undead minion hordes was mechanic that wasn't really thought to be ideal in 1e, but the concept should certainly be possible if adequately implemented.
I can also see the ritual being used for initial creation/replacement of the fallen, but control of the pack/troop being dependent on daily spell or spell slot, so you pay cost in spell slot and don't just gain additional power because you cast a ritual 2 weeks ago. Using an actual spell for that would tend to hurt Spontaneous casters, but perhaps the ritual could have a clause stating you gain further control every day you give up a daily spell slot, so it won't need a "Spell Known"/Repertoire but still impacts daily slots. If you decide you can't spare a high level slot one day and can only spare a lower level slot, then maybe the pack/horde will lose some members who wander off or collectively weaken, to scale down appropriate to that spell level.
I would be fine I think it they represent the horde of undead as "troop" type enemies as they introduced in PF1, but having large numbers of undead under the control of a single necromancer has always been a miserable experience as both a GM and player playing with someone who did it.
The troop type thing can be thematic, without making the creatures too strong or too many.
One of the issues I've noticed is that minions seem to make running NPCs harder, not easier. As a player, you become pretty used to incorporating your minion into your turn routine. As a GM, running an NPC for a single battle makes it much harder to remember how to structure turns around it, especially when you're looking at multiple NPCs and keeping the combat running smooth as a whole. I haven't loved running rangers with animal Companions subsequently, and doubt I'll feel differently about necromancers. So this is one of those things where I'm not gonna sweat monsters and PCs following the same rules, I reckon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of the possible results for the Create Undead ritual is that you can give the undead a single command that it then follows without deviation.
These undead do not have the Minion trait, thus they get all 3 actions and they can act without being directly ordered in battle.
I view that as how many/most of the undead in "the necromancer's castle" are made/controlled. "Attack anybody not bearing this holy symbol" is great. Then you grab the skeleton by the arm and drag it into a specific room and leave it there. It isn't commanded specifically to stay, but it isn't commanded to go either, so it will just shuffle around in the room until it sees somebody not wearing the holy symbol... then it's go time!
And that fits perfectly into what a GM wants most undead creatures to do. They want the PCs to break down a door, see skeletons, and for a fight to happen. Most PCs ALSO want to break down a door, find bad guys, and use their weapons and spells to defeat them, so no questions asked, right?
If a GM is scared that the players may try to have a belt-o-many-holy symbols if they catch on to the necromancer's scheme, they can feel free to mix things up.. maybe the order is "attack anybody who doesn't say woogly-boogly when they enter the room." I would think that such a necromancer wouldn't actually use "woogly-boogly" but would pick some word in an obscure language. How many parties have somebody who can say "apple pie" in Necril? A particularly anxious necromancer would probably go for a language that isn't thematic at all, too... why would anybody assume that their passcode for their undead is the word "thumb" in Fey?
I gotta say,as a long term necromancers player the Animate Object and Inveigle look better and better.
Inveigle could let you control intelligent undead.
A shadow could let you down more shadows, creating a pyramid scheme of undead hord-y-ness.
Animate Object might let you Animate and control a totally customized corpse.
Honestly, being a necromancer that controls undead minions is less attractive when other minions are easier to find/create and control.
Inveigle for example could work on an animal, humanoid or monster.
The 6th level version works off the contagion principle of magic, so all that is needed is some hair, or scales, etc.
It doesn't last as long,only a week or a month but you can invite your new friend to participate in a second ritual in person, and that should last a full year.
I gotta say,as a long term necromancers player the Animate Object and Inveigle look better and better.
Inveigle could let you control intelligent undead.
A shadow could let you down more shadows, creating a pyramid scheme of undead hord-y-ness.
Animate Object might let you Animate and control a totally customized corpse.Honestly, being a necromancer that controls undead minions is less attractive when other minions are easier to find/create and control.
Inveigle for example could work on an animal, humanoid or monster.
The 6th level version works off the contagion principle of magic, so all that is needed is some hair, or scales, etc.
It doesn't last as long,only a week or a month but you can invite your new friend to participate in a second ritual in person, and that should last a full year.
I think you're overestimating how easy it will be to cast Inveigle on something. You used a Shadow as an example, which doesn't have body pieces to use for the high level version. For the low level version, how do you restrain an incorporeal creature for 24 hours while you cast the spell? You pretty much need to already have landed a long duration enchantment for a critical failure.
Other creatures can be potentially restrained... But you have to put significant effort into it and frankly have some luck on your side if you want to catch anything of relevant level.
Animate Object makes for a much worse guard dog on a success than Create Undead does.
You have a great point about the shadow.
The higher level version could let you control creature without restraining it first, unless it's like the shadow.
I hadn't considered the idea of looking for level relevant minions.
I think of them as transport, porters, shield bearers, massed archery,trap springers and of course cannon fodder.
Of course catching one big bodyguard would be nice.
I've always gravitated toward undead because they were cheap and easy to come by.
Now the process seems fraught and complicated compared to the other options.
The examples of undead and constructs at each level seem fairly equivalent, undead probably have the edge, but the greater social acceptance of contructs is a bonus.
Back to the thread topic.
To make undead servants , I might take an domestic animal,tie it down,infect it with ghoul fever and let it die.
When it rises as a ghoul, then I would attempt to cast Inveigle on it.
Ghoulish Cravings targets a creature, but doesn't specify a humanoid, so animal targets could be fair game.