Look, the whole problem lies in the Money = Power paradigm that the game is stuck with. So everything that touches money needs to be as strictly corralled, reigned and fenced in as possible.
Requiring a formula/schematic as physical item is just an abstraction. There are already tons of abstractions in the game. Did anyone ever complain that there are only 'arrows', when in reality you need at least differentiate between long- and shortbows?
Personally, I'd just let the basic formula book contain *all the lv. 0 items*, for the same reason a Fighter can all weapons: In theory this means everything in the multiverse, but in actual practice it will only ever be a handful of items, or one type of melee weapon and one ranged one. No need to blow it out of proportion.
That said, I like the idea of using the Gain Income action to represent making ammunition items like arrows. I mean, enough people already hand-wave arrows and don't actually track them...
As for magic items, the fact that casters could inflate their WBL with crafting feats while muggles couldn't, was just another aspect of CMD. So that was just another proud nail that needed hammering in.
As for selling a formula parchment that you have finished copying, well, how about we simulate finding a buyer with making 'Gain Income' rolls...
But the real problem is that adventure paths usually have just too little downtime to make crafting feasible. If it was a more open-ended campaign, say the party having an adventure, then everbody goes home in fall and levels up over the winter... And comes spring, and thus the next adventuring season... But that requires an entirely home-brewed game. That is not for everyone.
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All this tells me that my party will build the greatest "serviceable raft" of all time. With blackjack and ladies of ill repute.
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I think one of the issues with the Crafting skill is that it is lacking a "mode". As written, you can do these things with Crafting:
* Recall Knowledge about crafting-related things, including constructs.
* Earn Income by working as a crafter.
* Make equipment, which is essentially similar to Gain Income.
* Repair things.
* Identify Alchemy.
What is needed is a "Solve problem" use - the one where you find yourself at a deep but relatively narrow ravine, and build a makeshift bridge to cross it. Or when a ceiling is collapsing but you figure out a way to make a support for it that'll hold until everyone is out. Or when you can't pick the lock on the chest but figure out a way to break open the hinges so you get to open it that way instead of breaking the whole chest open. Basically, MacGyvering stuff.
I think this would be an excellent inclusion for the Advanced Player's Guide, if there's still time to make such a thing.
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OKay I've read through most of the discussion on here and I say
Having a formula makes sense. There are rules for reverse engineering (Studying an item to get a formula) and watching someone is just them giving you the formula verbally and visually.
Now I'm play an alchemist in PFS. And here's what annoys me. There is no point in crafting any consumable objects myself. I'm a bomber. So I thought "Okay, I'll used my advanced Alchemy Reagents for ammunition, and spend my down time craft other items that could come in helpful in edge case scenarios. (I do advanced craft some elixirs of life too, I'm not an idiot) But it is literally cheaper for me to just purchase the items myself, rather than craft them. How does that make any flarking sense?
When you purchase something, you are not only paying for the goods of that item, but also for the effort to make it and for the person to turn a profit. But I have to expend all the gold, or time equivilant to gold meaning I'm not earning income, to craft it as I would to buy it. And the first four days I don't earn any income toward reducing the price of the item so It is litterally more expensive to craft than buy
My job is to be a well prepared support character, but a crap crafting system severely hinders my ability to do that.
OKay I've read through most of the discussion on here and I say
Having a formula makes sense. There are rules for reverse engineering (Studying an item to get a formula) and watching someone is just them giving you the formula verbally and visually.
Now I'm play an alchemist in PFS. And here's what annoys me. There is no point in crafting any consumable objects myself. I'm a bomber. So I thought "Okay, I'll used my advanced Alchemy Reagents for ammunition, and spend my down time craft other items that could come in helpful in edge case scenarios. (I do advanced craft some elixirs of life too, I'm not an idiot) But it is literally cheaper for me to just purchase the items myself, rather than craft them. How does that make any flarking sense?
When you purchase something, you are not only paying for the goods of that item, but also for the effort to make it and for the person to turn a profit. But I have to expend all the gold, or time equivilant to gold meaning I'm not earning income, to craft it as I would to buy it. And the first four days I don't earn any income toward reducing the price of the item so It is litterally more expensive to craft than buy
My job is to be a well prepared support character, but a crap crafting system severely hinders my ability to do that.
If you're in an environment where you CAN purchase the items on a moment's notice, can't you just use Crafting to Earn income towards purchasing those items? I recognize that that feels a different than actually making the items you will use, but the distinction is also almost entirely flavor and therefore easy to reflavor.
The Craft activity is still your only option in environments where you can't just purchase those items, but I guess that's never the case for PFS.
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I had a GM friend who, upon learning of the new crafting rules and how they worked, was very excited for them. Now he wouldn't have to worry about the party doing crazy things like starting a business empire or easily crafting a bunch of fogcutting lenses than cakewalking nearly every published encounter with fog creation spells and effects that only the PCs could see through.
Then he played a 2nd Edition game as a PLAYER and made a crafting specialist rogue. He abandoned the concept entirely before he even finished reaching the next level citing that it was too much trouble, not worth it, and unfun.
Quite interesting to see how his perception essentially 180'd based on his role.
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I had a GM friend who, upon learning of the new crafting rules and how they worked, was very excited for them. Now he wouldn't have to worry about the party doing crazy things like starting a business empire or easily crafting a bunch of fogcutting lenses than cakewalking nearly every published encounter with fog creation spells and effects that only the PCs could see through.
Then he played a 2nd Edition game as a PLAYER and made a crafting specialist rogue. He abandoned the concept entirely before he even finished reaching the next level citing that it was too much trouble, not worth it, and unfun.
Quite interesting to see how his perception essentially 180'd based on his role.
I can't say I entirely get how one would make a Craft focused rogue as a concept, considering it is a downtime activity. Did he actually get downtime before reaching the next level? Because I wouldn't expect him to, and a rogue is still a rogue until then.
It seems like if you want crafting as a central schtick you'd need to pick an alchemist, or maybe a wizard with the right feats and nexuses. Aside from that, Crafting has seemed like a pretty consistently useful adventuring skill.
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I can't say I entirely get how one would make a Craft focused rogue as a concept, considering it is a downtime activity. Did he actually get downtime before reaching the next level? Because I wouldn't expect him to, and a rogue is still a rogue until then.
It seems like if you want crafting as a central schtick you'd need to pick an alchemist, or maybe a wizard with the right feats and nexuses. Aside from that, Crafting has seemed like a pretty consistently useful adventuring skill.
He didn't hold onto to it long enough to be awarded downtime in the first place.
It was a while ago now, so I'm paraphrasing from memory, but he basically said "I'm making a crafter, am investing in the Crafting skill, and will be taking feats like Craft Alchemy and Craft Magical Items."
Then he re-read the crafting rules, and switched everything out. I think he ended up with Hefty Hauler or something because he perceived he'd get more use out of it.
I can't say I entirely get how one would make a Craft focused rogue as a concept, considering it is a downtime activity. Did he actually get downtime before reaching the next level? Because I wouldn't expect him to, and a rogue is still a rogue until then.
It seems like if you want crafting as a central schtick you'd need to pick an alchemist, or maybe a wizard with the right feats and nexuses. Aside from that, Crafting has seemed like a pretty consistently useful adventuring skill.
He didn't hold onto to it long enough to be awarded downtime in the first place.
It was a while ago now, so I'm paraphrasing from memory, but he basically said "I'm making a crafter, am investing in the Crafting skill, and will be taking feats like Craft Alchemy and Craft Magical Items."
Then he re-read the crafting rules, and switched everything out. I think he ended up with Hefty Hauler or something because he perceived he'd get more use out of it.
Yeah, if downtime isn't a thing then downtime skill feats won't be useful. Even then, if you have enough market access they probably still aren't going to be useful. But most skill feats are only good in the right setting. Terrain Stalker is no good in the wrong terrain. Hobnobber does you no good if you don't need to gather info. Bargain Hunter is no good in a game without market access.
It's one of those things where you should use a session zero or a player's guide or something to set expectations before committing to a build.
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Incoming Snark:
- Off we go into the jungle wilds for a long-term exploratory expedition!
- Took craft feats and abilities because there'd be no shops.
- Still can't use them anywhere as there is nowhere to buy crafting supplies/formulas.
:(
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Incoming Snark:
- Off we go into the jungle wilds for a long-term exploratory expedition!
- Took craft feats and abilities because there'd be no shops.
- Still can't use them anywhere as there is nowhere to buy crafting supplies/formulas.:(
Well, considering possession of a basic crafters handbook and artisans tools you can at least take a full 4 days off to craft 10 arrows for your party Ranger! -_-
Exploring the jungle one encounter every 5 days...
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Incoming Snark:
- Off we go into the jungle wilds for a long-term exploratory expedition!
- Took craft feats and abilities because there'd be no shops.
- Still can't use them anywhere as there is nowhere to buy crafting supplies/formulas.:(
I mean, you didn't take the inventor feat? How about reverse engineering formulae of items you find.
The bigger issue in the jungle is you need access to a) crafting materials b) an appropriate workshop/toolsAnd given that a city like Ravounel is level 8, meaning characters in AoA book 3 would be lkmited to guarateed access to level 7 items without crafting.
Sure if a GM ignores settlement rules, you only play low level games and or you have constant easy access to a large metropolis it isn't an issue (until you wish to reverse engineer an uncommon or rare magical item, but hey, crafting sucks because GMs can just give them out free too :p)
Well, considering possession of a basic crafters handbook and artisans tools you can at least take a full 4 days off to craft 10 arrows for your party Ranger! -_-
Exploring the jungle one encounter every 5 days...
40 arrows, arrows are consumable / destroyed on use.
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40 arrows, arrows are consumable / destroyed on use.Well, considering possession of a basic crafters handbook and artisans tools you can at least take a full 4 days off to craft 10 arrows for your party Ranger! -_-
Exploring the jungle one encounter every 5 days...
Alas, ammo is not like other consumables. Instead of 1 to 4 you craft 1 to 10, but that's it.
You also Craft non-magical ammunition in batches, using the quantity listed in Table 6–8: Ranged Weapons (typically 10).
Sure if a GM ignores settlement rules, you only play low level games and or you have constant easy access to a large metropolis it isn't an issue (until you wish to reverse engineer an uncommon or rare magical item, but hey, crafting sucks because GMs can just give them out free too :p)
And this is why many GM's (Myself included) include some form of "Magical Vendor" who just happens to show up with a wide variety of things the party may want or need from time to time.
"What are ya buyin? What are ya Sellin?"
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Sure if a GM ignores settlement rules, you only play low level games and or you have constant easy access to a large metropolis it isn't an issue (until you wish to reverse engineer an uncommon or rare magical item, but hey, crafting sucks because GMs can just give them out free too :p)And this is why many GM's (Myself included) include some form of "Magical Vendor" who just happens to show up with a wide variety of things the party may want or need from time to time.
"What are ya buyin? What are ya Sellin?"
"Welcome to ye olde magic shoppe. Khajiit has wares if you have coin!"
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OKay I've read through most of the discussion on here and I say
Having a formula makes sense. There are rules for reverse engineering (Studying an item to get a formula) and watching someone is just them giving you the formula verbally and visually.
Now I'm play an alchemist in PFS. And here's what annoys me. There is no point in crafting any consumable objects myself. I'm a bomber. So I thought "Okay, I'll used my advanced Alchemy Reagents for ammunition, and spend my down time craft other items that could come in helpful in edge case scenarios. (I do advanced craft some elixirs of life too, I'm not an idiot) But it is literally cheaper for me to just purchase the items myself, rather than craft them. How does that make any flarking sense?
When you purchase something, you are not only paying for the goods of that item, but also for the effort to make it and for the person to turn a profit. But I have to expend all the gold, or time equivilant to gold meaning I'm not earning income, to craft it as I would to buy it. And the first four days I don't earn any income toward reducing the price of the item so It is litterally more expensive to craft than buy
My job is to be a well prepared support character, but a crap crafting system severely hinders my ability to do that.
If you're in an environment where you CAN purchase the items on a moment's notice, can't you just use Crafting to Earn income towards purchasing those items? I recognize that that feels a different than actually making the items you will use, but the distinction is also almost entirely flavor and therefore easy to reflavor.
The Craft activity is still your only option in environments where you can't just purchase those items, but I guess that's never the case for PFS.
SO please justify to me why it costs an Alchemist MORE to craft items, than it would cost to just buy it. This makes no sense for anyone with the crafting skill to pay full price or more to craft an item. Why is crafting an option at all if it costs just as much?! Why not just have a rule that states there are shops in forests and deserts because that makes about as much sense as crafting being as expensive or more than out right buying an item.
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So the justification is that they think a crafting system that is useful is broken? Better get rid of spells that do damage, that's broken. Oh, and stop martial classes from hitting more than once in a turn, that's pretty broken. Oh, get rid of diplomacy and deception checks, that might get pretty broken.
Again, this PUNISHES you for trying to craft items since it costs more to craft than to buy. That is fair to you?
Why is "Crafting" the broken thing? I'm not looking to make Magic armor or anything, I"m looking to make common alchemical items. As an Alchemist it should not cost me more to make than it does to buy!
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Spells, attacks, and skills are all part of the stuff you gain when you level up. You're also supposed to be gaining a certain amount of gear as you level up. This is accounted for in the game. One might argue about particular balance points, but basically an Xth level character is supposed to have Y amount of capability.Allowing a character to "super-charge" this capability via downtime crafting of consumables (or accumulation of wealth, which is basically the same thing) runs the risk of breaking the game. I think the risk of such is probably smaller in PF2 than in PF1, both because of item levels putting a cap on what you supposedly can access and because item costs accelerate much faster than in PF1 (in PF1, a +5 item cost 25 times as much as a +1 item, but in PF1 a +3 item costs 140 to 400 times as much as a +1 item). So the risk in PF2 is more about endurance and versatility than top-level output, but it's still there.
Oh, so no matter what the individual does, the character should never be more or less effective than any other character? Which makes it sound like the player agency is an illusion
As an alchemist, the assumption is that you'll be using your daily reagents for your alchemy needs. Niche items you only need occasionally is what Quick Alchemy is for. Crafting "proper" alchemical items is basically the equivalent of a wizard crafting scrolls.
I've burned through my entirely daily prep without finishing a quest leaving me to resorting to a sling to do anything useful. While a spell caster can say something similar, they have cantrips to fall back on.
Also, the lore of the class is that they are crafters, so why are they such terrible crafters?
This whole thing just smacks of Hostile Design because Paizo doesn't want to be bothered to find a balanced solution, so they want to discourage people from crafting.
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Not exactly.
It seems this has to be repeated and repeated since so many people simply do not get it:
The ONLY money-related benefit of Crafting (or Bargain Hunter etc) is to shield yourself from the misfortune of being stuck in a town with no access to earn income tasks of your level.
This is incorrect. It's not even the main benefit of Crafting or Bargain Hunter, which is that it lets you apply investment in a useful adventuring skill to Earn Income instead of investment in a useless adventuring skill, Lore. (It is possible to get a useful Lore, but generally speaking the usefulness a Lore has for adventuring will be inversely proportional to the likelihood of finding downtime work for it.)
If you put skill increases or item bonuses in the Diplomacy or Crafting already, you will get better returns for your downtime than people who are just trained in a lore. The "start up" period definitely hurts this, but you get higher yield per day and of course are more likely to succeed or critically succeed,
The ONLY benefit is when you can see your friends earn less gold than you do.
That's technically accurate, but a really weird way to look it.
Earning money is about low to trivial amounts to begin with.
If you don't have long long amounts of amounts of downtime, don't bother.
Well, yeah, downtime activities aren't things you do without downtime. In a fast paced adventure I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise? That said, the published material has made a point of emphasizing giving players downtime, so this isn't some weird corner case.
Paizo could have created Crafting abilities (or Bargain Hunter etc) that works intuitively like people expect them to, so you didn't need "a session zero or a player's guide or something" to understand if they would be worthless.
The way Crafting works is definitely not intuitive (even if it can be logically explained) but I think Bargain Hunter basically works as advertised. You spend time hunting for Bargains, you get a better deal.
Also, to be clear, I don't think the Craft activity is perfect, but I do think most of its problems are small and easy to house rule. (And I think people undervalue the skill outside of the Crafting Activity, because that was all it did in PF1 and it does much more now.) The 4 day start up being the chief example. That represents lost income. Lower level items should have stayed faster to craft. If you just had savings start accruing immediately, even if you couldn't actually gain them until the 4th day, that would be pretty fine.
I think the biggest misstep Paizo made was formula availability relative to actual item availability. They didn't release guidance until the GMG which basically set both values at the settlement level. Formula are smaller, cheaper, and easier to mass produce and therefore should be easier to obtain. Bumping Inventor down to Expert proficiency would do a lot for me there.
Also, to be clear, I don't think the Craft activity is perfect, but I do think most of its problems are small and easy to house rule. (And I think people undervalue the skill outside of the Crafting Activity, because that was all it did in PF1 and it does much more now.) The 4 day start up being the chief example. That represents lost income. Lower level items should have stayed faster to craft. If you just had savings start accruing immediately, even if you couldn't actually gain them until the 4th day, that would be pretty fine.Personally I like Starfinder's solution here, letting you shave days off if the item is x number of levels below your own. It's what I plan on using at my tables if I ever get a crafting-focused character, though I may shave time down by lots of 4 rather than 5.
They had a similar rule in the playtest that presumably got cut because the Craft activity was already confusing.
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Thank you for acknowledging what so few other posters are able to see.I find that phrasing it this way is the best way to open the eyes of people believing Crafting is cool, useful or any other positive trait.
In actuality all those rules obscure the simple fact Paizo has written perhaps the most miserly, limited and useless crafting rules I've seen in any rpg product ever.
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About "money equals power".
Let me say: That's technically accurate, but a really weird way to look it. ;)
When item cost is so very exponential, it's not like a 20% discount could buy you something broken anyway. Sure you can purchase 20% more cheap low-level items. But you could already purchase as many low-level items as you like, again because the pricing is so very exponential.
So in the context of PF1, maybe. But not in PF2.
All the insane restrictions on crafting might make sense from a PF1 angle. But not when viewed against the actual PF2 rules.
tl;dr: the PF2 crafting rules could have been vastly simplified and less restrictive and actually generous and it would not have changed a thing (as regards "OMG now its brokenly good")
THANK YOU! It is not broken to let me craft a batch of common alchemical items at a discount, especially if it is possible for me to fail that crafting check. I'm all for The possibilty to fail an attempt to craft an item, and even critically fail, wasting the money you originally put in. But to succeed and still spend more making it than buying it is asinine.
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The ONLY benefit is when you can see your friends earn less gold than you do.That's technically accurate, but a really weird way to look it.
Thank you for acknowledging what so few other posters are able to see.
I find that phrasing it this way is the best way to open the eyes of people believing Crafting is cool, useful or any other positive trait.
That feels like saying "the only benefit of flight is when you can see your melee friends deal less damage." It is better in scenarios where other people struggle. That's a thing.
Also, to be clear, this is only true of the Craft activity. You can still make money as well as anyone else using the Crafting skill as an Earn Income activity. Probably better, in practice, because there's always jobs for someone who is handy or can make things in a way there isn't for all but the most mundane of Lores. And if you're an alchemist you've got good intelligence, and if you've invested in further boosting the Craft skill you're going to be doing much better than the average person who leaves their lore as trained.
And again, I recognize using the Earn Income activity with the Craft skill may not feel as good as Crafting with the Craft skill, but it's also basically a flavor distinction and can be reflavored or house ruled trivially. All you really need to do for parity is let the start up time count towards savings.
And since the Craft skill is basically PF1 Appraise, Knowledge Engineering, and all of the previous Craft skills rolled into one plus identifies constructs and probably mechanical traos, it would still be a good skill even if you never used it for the Craft activity.
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Okay First Flight has tons of uses beyond keeping you out of melee, so that is not an apt comparison.
Second: yeah, we know crafting can make you more as earn income, and that's about it for down time usefulness. And that was his point.
Also, the house-rule patch you suggested only makes it so you aren't punished for attempting to craft an item, You are still paying full price to craft which makes no sense. Like Zapp said, a discount isn't going to break the game. Whether it's 50% or 20%
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Also, the house-rule patch you suggested only makes it so you aren't punished for attempting to craft an item, You are still paying full price to craft which makes no sense. Like Zapp said, a discount isn't going to break the game. Whether it's 50% or 20%
Yeah, I... Don't agree. Crafting should be able to save you money, but I don't see why it should be more money than the bard can make staging a performance or the bar keep can make using alcohol lore. I mean, I see why you'd want that, and I even see the immersion argument that magical or alchemical crafting should be a more valuable skill... But I don't see any sort of balance argument for it.
It would be one thing if the Crafting was a still a useless skill otherwise, but again, it is actually useful in adventures now.
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Because I"m not earning income, I'm devoting my time and my skill to making something specific.
And immersion... you mean based on common sense in world? You mean it doesn't make sense in world that making something costs more than buying it?! Wow!
And to those who want to whine about how it's not an Economics simulator... what If my party wants to run a bar or store? what if we want to do something like that as a base of operations?
In D&D AL they had a subplot for a season about how your party was now running a tavern
I have trouble believing that a system that is so much better (And PF 2E IS better than 5e in my opinion) can't come up with some kind of workable economy.
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Because I"m not earning income, I'm devoting my time and my skill to making something specific.
Yes, and mechanically that is represented as you getting a discount on the item. It just so happens that the discount is the same as what you could make earning income.
And immersion... you mean based on common sense in world? You mean it doesn't make sense in world that making something costs more than buying it?! Wow!
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, since I already noted the immersion issue. Although, in the short term, making a single item can indeed be more expensive than buying it. If you don't already have infrastructure for tools, work space, and materials? It isn't very cost effective. In the case of an alchemist who already supplies and tools with them, not so much, but if you're making a sword? Sure, why not.
And to those who want to whine about how it's not an Economics simulator... what If my party wants to run a bar or store? what if we want to do something like that as a base of operations?
As someone who has run that game, you have 3 options.
1) Just use Earn Income. Those rules are abstract enough to encompass any of those things.
2) Use a bespoke subsystem. Much like they recently published rules for specifically running a circus, similar rules could be developed (by Paizo or fans) for shops or bars. Those rules would be fine an Ultimate Campaign style splatbook, but don't really have any place in the core rules.
3) Just use a different game. I used Stewpot to run mine, and it is built for this exact concept.
I have trouble believing that a system that is so much better (And PF 2E IS better than 5e in my opinion) can't come up with some kind of workable economy.
They could, and probably have, but PCs don't actually intersect with the world's economy beyond dumping large sums of gold into it. There's very little reason to make player facing rules that represent an actual economy.
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Yes, and mechanically that is represented as you getting a discount on the item. It just so happens that the discount is the same as what you could make earning income.
But you don't get a discount, you in fact spend time spend more time/money to craft than to buy.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, since I already noted the immersion issue. Although, in the short term, making a single item can indeed be more expensive than buying it. If you don't already have infrastructure for tools, work space, and materials? It isn't very cost effective. In the case of an alchemist who already supplies and tools with them, not so much, but if you're making a sword? Sure, why not.
This was me being frustratedly sarcastic, so less than helpful.
They could, and probably have, but PCs don't actually intersect with the world's economy beyond dumping large sums of gold into it. There's very little reason to make player facing rules that represent an...
Other than players who want one. Yeah, no reason what so ever.
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There really is no reason to craft other than for uncommon or rare items, and maybe for high level rune transfers if you got settlements lower level than the level of runes you're running.
Even with an AP excuse to craft, it is very underwhelming to craft when an item is already available, and even with the argument of no civilization to craft with, you don't have the tools or materials available to make anything. No metals, no forge, no tools, no magical macguffin, nothing.
It's also stupid expensive and stupid time-consuming compared to just doing a quest in about a few hours for such an item.
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Potatoes - Potatoes
You want it to save you money in excess of what you could make doing other downtime tasks and also to cost you less than buying the item from a market where you could find it normally... just like 3.X where there was never a good reason to purchase anything versus crafting it yourself.
That's not flavor, that's a permanent mechanical edge that puts you above the acceptable norm for equipment and wealth you should have. There was a good reason why most 3.X game GMs had a houserule to prevent crafting with the funds they're given when starting at higher than 1st level and this was it. When the system incentivizes someone to craft their own gear by saving them money they will end up with more numerous, and more powerful magical items than they should have, and the problem ramps up at higher levels exponentially.
That's my take indeed, yes. You're acting like you should be entitled to break the system balance by acquiring more wealth than you should have no matter how you slice it.
THAT ASIDE: I do still have gripes with the actual time investment it takes to craft equipment since PCs won't always have 4+ days to play around in downtime but that's not really a new problem since expensive equipment always took a long time and in many cases it took FAR longer to make a single expensive item in 3.X than it does in PF2.
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Regardless of monitary issues (we don't expect to 'cheat' the wealth system by crafting) our group found the current crafting rules not very explicit and user friendly, at least not for the casual reader, and in some parts even impractical in daily use.
* basic crafters handbook - contents?
* rune transfer - formula needed?
* availability of formula vs availability of actual item?
* 4 days of downtime for 10 arrows vs same downtime for a plate mail?
* etc.
So if the crafting system is not designed to earn / save money it should at least be easy to pick up for all people who are 'just' looking into customizing their equipment or replenishing consumables. You shoudn't have to browse the FAQ and/or forum for answers for something as 'simple' as crafting.
Sure if a GM ignores settlement rules, you only play low level games and or you have constant easy access to a large metropolis it isn't an issue (until you wish to reverse engineer an uncommon or rare magical item, but hey, crafting sucks because GMs can just give them out free too :p)And this is why many GM's (Myself included) include some form of "Magical Vendor" who just happens to show up with a wide variety of things the party may want or need from time to time.
"What are ya buyin? What are ya Sellin?"
Then that is a GM preference or party preference and bordering on a houserule nerf to the usefulness of crafting in PF2e. Not an issue with the benefits of PF2e crafting.
If rules and guidelines are adhered to crafters are incredibly useful to a group. Not because of discounts (although money can be saved in the long run if a game has downtime, and the system has multiple reasons to engage with downtime) but because of flexibility of choice.
If everything can be bought then sure, as I said before, GM and group choice.
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Well, I'm late to the party. As usual, some people don't like a published rule, so they spend their time complaining about it and slamming the Paizo team for publishing rules they don't like.
Sure, in the PF2 crafting rules, there's a lot not to like.
But before slamming them as junk, folks should take a minute and think about their stated goal: to avoid the abuses of the past and create a workable system for crafting high-ticket magic items that won't break the game. And isn't overly complex.
No, it doesn't work right for consumables and other low-ticket items. It *really* doesn't work for mundane items like arrows or improvised crafting like a raft.
So what do you do?
- Just avoid crafting like the plague? That works. Use Earn Icome for any downtime, and pay full price on any items you want to buy.
- Houserule an alternate system? That works. I know for a fact that several of the people posting in this thread have houseruled alternate crafting systems for PF2 that work just fine.
- Adapt existing rules by "reflavoring" them? Like using the Earn Income table straight up to craft an equivalent value of low-ticket mundane items (arrows, etc)? That works too.
But let's all stop slamming the Paizo people who created this wonderful game for our enjoyment. Toxic forum posts don't help anyone, and as I was reading through this thread, I saw a lot of reasonable and thoughtful discussion mixed in with a few toxic and abusive posts. Let's just try to avoid the latter.
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Okay, so I'm trying to take a breath and state something that may not be obvious: I don't understand this logic. I don't understand why Punishing people for crafting is "power balance". That's doesn't mean I'm right, this is me desperate for someone to make this make sense to me.
Why are they willing to have a broken economy in world?
Why allow crafting AT ALL if it is going to come at a penalty?
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Okay, so I'm trying to take a breath and state something that may not be obvious: I don't understand this logic. I don't understand why Punishing people for crafting is "power balance". That's doesn't mean I'm right, this is me desperate for someone to make this make sense to me.
Why are they willing to have a broken economy in world?
Why allow crafting AT ALL if it is going to come at a penalty?
If PF2 were a computer game my (lawful evil) answer would be that you can then claim that your game is sporting a fully functional crafting system. /sarcasm
However the correct answer probably is to enable some kind of item flexibility without breaking *player* economy.
Thats easy enough to understand, however I still don't like how it is implemented, largely due to (supposedly?) logical gaps and/or rule ambiguity.