Crafting is very, VERY tedious...


Rules Discussion

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rysky wrote:

No?

What Raft Formula is being ignored?

Are you saying that because there is no raft in the Equipment sections in any of the books, that I don't need a formula to make one?

Guess I'll run off and make a nuke now before taking on the Big Bad.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

One could read the serviceable raft rule weirdly. It takes the party (typically 4 pcs) a day, meaning 4 days worth of downtime. I'm sure that's not the intent or even how most would read it. But some could if it better supported their argument.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Rysky wrote:

No?

What Raft Formula is being ignored?

Are you saying that because there is no raft in the Equipment sections in any of the books, that I don't need a formula to make one?

Guess I'll run off and make a nuke now before taking on the Big Bad.

See, here's the thing. Common sense applying is hard coded into the game.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Rysky wrote:

No?

What Raft Formula is being ignored?

Are you saying that because there is no raft in the Equipment sections in any of the books, that I don't need a formula to make one?

Guess I'll run off and make a nuke now before taking on the Big Bad.

See, here's the thing. Common sense applying is hard coded into the game.

You forget that Ravingdork postulated that all NPCs walk around naked in PF2 because their statblock doesn't mention clothes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Malk_Content wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Rysky wrote:

No?

What Raft Formula is being ignored?

Are you saying that because there is no raft in the Equipment sections in any of the books, that I don't need a formula to make one?

Guess I'll run off and make a nuke now before taking on the Big Bad.

See, here's the thing. Common sense applying is hard coded into the game.
You forget that Ravingdork postulated that all NPCs walk around naked in PF2 because their statblock doesn't mention clothes.

;P


Look, the whole problem lies in the Money = Power paradigm that the game is stuck with. So everything that touches money needs to be as strictly corralled, reigned and fenced in as possible.

Requiring a formula/schematic as physical item is just an abstraction. There are already tons of abstractions in the game. Did anyone ever complain that there are only 'arrows', when in reality you need at least differentiate between long- and shortbows?

Personally, I'd just let the basic formula book contain *all the lv. 0 items*, for the same reason a Fighter can all weapons: In theory this means everything in the multiverse, but in actual practice it will only ever be a handful of items, or one type of melee weapon and one ranged one. No need to blow it out of proportion.

That said, I like the idea of using the Gain Income action to represent making ammunition items like arrows. I mean, enough people already hand-wave arrows and don't actually track them...

As for magic items, the fact that casters could inflate their WBL with crafting feats while muggles couldn't, was just another aspect of CMD. So that was just another proud nail that needed hammering in.

As for selling a formula parchment that you have finished copying, well, how about we simulate finding a buyer with making 'Gain Income' rolls...

But the real problem is that adventure paths usually have just too little downtime to make crafting feasible. If it was a more open-ended campaign, say the party having an adventure, then everbody goes home in fall and levels up over the winter... And comes spring, and thus the next adventuring season... But that requires an entirely home-brewed game. That is not for everyone.


All this tells me that my party will build the greatest "serviceable raft" of all time. With blackjack and ladies of ill repute.


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I think one of the issues with the Crafting skill is that it is lacking a "mode". As written, you can do these things with Crafting:

* Recall Knowledge about crafting-related things, including constructs.

* Earn Income by working as a crafter.

* Make equipment, which is essentially similar to Gain Income.

* Repair things.

* Identify Alchemy.

What is needed is a "Solve problem" use - the one where you find yourself at a deep but relatively narrow ravine, and build a makeshift bridge to cross it. Or when a ceiling is collapsing but you figure out a way to make a support for it that'll hold until everyone is out. Or when you can't pick the lock on the chest but figure out a way to break open the hinges so you get to open it that way instead of breaking the whole chest open. Basically, MacGyvering stuff.


To me it seems obvious, and in no need for protracted discussion.

Per the RAW crafting plays a very minor role in the game. None at all if you have magic shoppes readily available.

If you don't like that in your game.... change it.

It's still better than the opposite.

Imagine if crafting was the powergamer's go-to routine to get hold of cool powerful stuff faster than the game would otherwise give it.

For those of you that love crafting, cool.

But for everyone else, that would be a most unwelcome intrusion in the supposed focus of the game (adventuring), that would force us to houserule the game.

Ergo: it's much better that crafting is truly optional than it being mandatory, since far from every group wants to engage with those rules or bother even a little bit.

What I can agree to is this:

The game should definitely have had the following sentence included in the CRB: "Crafting is intentionally made optional, and therefore no profit can be gained. Rules variants for those wanting a stronger focus on crafting will be forthcoming in the [insert GMG or APG or whatever here]".

Personally, I feel it was a bad decision to include it at all in the CRB. Nobody is served by a rule that allows some activity, but makes sure it's crappy enough nobody feels compelled to ever do it... It would have been much better to hold off til a non-core book, where you could include it as BOTH optional (simply by virtue of not being in the CRB) AND reasonably strong (better than "very very tedious") at the same time.


A raft is an improvised boat. It is slower, heavier, less maneuverable, and probably less durable than a properly-made boat. Its resale value is very low.

So all the PFS adventure really shows is that, with the GM's permission, players can craft cheap, inferior, junky items without a formula.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Staffan Johansson wrote:

I think one of the issues with the Crafting skill is that it is lacking a "mode". As written, you can do these things with Crafting:

* Recall Knowledge about crafting-related things, including constructs.

* Earn Income by working as a crafter.

* Make equipment, which is essentially similar to Gain Income.

* Repair things.

* Identify Alchemy.

What is needed is a "Solve problem" use - the one where you find yourself at a deep but relatively narrow ravine, and build a makeshift bridge to cross it. Or when a ceiling is collapsing but you figure out a way to make a support for it that'll hold until everyone is out. Or when you can't pick the lock on the chest but figure out a way to break open the hinges so you get to open it that way instead of breaking the whole chest open. Basically, MacGyvering stuff.

I think this would be an excellent inclusion for the Advanced Player's Guide, if there's still time to make such a thing.

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