Why limit which skills swashbucklers can use to gain panache?

[georgedoors]

This is something I thought of while reading through the playtest document. The swashbuckler can use acrobatics and one other skill to gain panache, with the second skill based on their swashbuckler's style. This feels quite limiting, since you can easily imagine a character that's good at both athletics and intimidation, and who uses both skills with flair and aplomb. But if you build that character, you'll only ever use of those skills in combat, since the other won't give you panache. I think it makes sense to scrap the three styles and let the swashbuckler use any of the listed skills be default.

[BellyBeard]

It's to encourage build and action diversity among different swashbucklers. You can also easily imagine a Druid capable of doing all the druidic things a PF1 Druid could do, but a PF2 Druid now has to choose which of those things they want to focus in (or they can be a generalist, and not be as strong in a given specialty). I would be fine with a feat for a swashbuckler who wants to dip into another style for more versatile panache gain though, but I'd rather it not be the default.

[Ludovicus]

georgedoors wrote:

This is something I thought of while reading through the playtest document. The swashbuckler can use acrobatics and one other skill to gain panache, with the second skill based on their swashbuckler's style. This feels quite limiting, since you can easily imagine a character that's good at both athletics and intimidation, and who uses both skills with flair and aplomb. But if you build that character, you'll only ever use of those skills in combat, since the other won't give you panache. I think it makes sense to scrap the three styles and let the swashbuckler use any of the listed skills be default.

I think this is a great point. The point of the swashbuckler is ostensibly to encourage creative use of non-Strike actions in combat, but this limitation hampers creativity rather than facilitates it. Swashbucklers would feel more spontaneous, and be more interesting, if players were free to figure out whichever skill worked best for a situation. (Players who wanted to specialize in one of these tactics would of course still be free to do so, by taking skills and feats that made them especially good at one.)

BellyBeard wrote:

It's to encourage build and action diversity among different swashbucklers. You can also easily imagine a Druid capable of doing all the druidic things a PF1 Druid could do, but a PF2 Druid now has to choose which of those things they want to focus in (or they can be a generalist, and not be as strong in a given specialty). I would be fine with a feat for a swashbuckler who wants to dip into another style for more versatile panache gain though, but I'd rather it not be the default.

That a given rule is one way to mechanically distinguish characters within a class doesn't entail that it's the only possible way, or a good way. The devs can find something else.

[Lanathar]

I like the idea of a feat similar to what Druids and I believe Bards get to unlock options

[Henro]

I too think this ought to be done with a feat.

Something like "Versatile Style" that let you gain panache off the skill associated with a style you didn't choose. The Druid "Order explorer" feat is a good baseline for this, yes.

[PossibleCabbage]

Isn't there a general "if you do something suitably flashy, impressive, or daring with any skill, at the GM's discretion you gain panache" rule?

Like I don't know what the uses of nature or crafting that can be done with suitable flamboyance to count, but this is the sort of things where I'm happy to let my players figure it out.

[Saedar]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't there a general "if you do something suitably flashy, impressive, or daring with any skill, at the GM's discretion you gain panache" rule?

Like I don't know what the uses of nature or crafting that can be done with suitable flamboyance to count, but this is the sort of things where I'm happy to let my players figure it out.

Cha/Int Swashbuckler: Phoenix Wright.

[Squiggit]

Saedar wrote:

Cha/Int Swashbuckler: Phoenix Wright.

Man, panache would have been really cool on the Investigator (renamed to Inspiration).

[BishopMcQ]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't there a general "if you do something suitably flashy, impressive, or daring with any skill, at the GM's discretion you gain panache" rule?

Like I don't know what the uses of nature or crafting that can be done with suitable flamboyance to count, but this is the sort of things where I'm happy to let my players figure it out.

Could the use of Craft to devise an impromptu see-saw using benches in a feast hall, then cut the rope supporting the chandelier. Chandelier comes down, providing launch for the Swashbuckler's heroic leap onto the second floor.

Swordfighting for sleight of hand would also be great: Classic Musketeers

[BellyBeard]

Ludovicus wrote:

That a given rule is one way to mechanically distinguish characters within a class doesn't entail that it's the only possible way, or a good way. The devs can find something else.

Certainly, but I am interested what other way you have in mind that produces different characters at level 1?

[Martialmasters]

tbh every swashbuckler i make ends up with just 18 dex, 16 str 12 con

even braggart and fencer, i actually end up ignoring deception/intimidation because focusing on them hinders the character in an actual fight.

[Squiggit]

BellyBeard wrote:

Ludovicus wrote:

That a given rule is one way to mechanically distinguish characters within a class doesn't entail that it's the only possible way, or a good way. The devs can find something else.

Certainly, but I am interested what other way you have in mind that produces different characters at level 1?

Not really saying I'm behind the suggestion but one thing that pops into mind is... selectable finishers instead of selectable panache generators.

Finishers are one of your big defining features, but I don't think there are enough of them, especially at lower levels. Having options instead of just everyone getting Confident could be a cool way to diversify the class.

[Martialmasters]

Squiggit wrote:

BellyBeard wrote:

Ludovicus wrote:

That a given rule is one way to mechanically distinguish characters within a class doesn't entail that it's the only possible way, or a good way. The devs can find something else.

Certainly, but I am interested what other way you have in mind that produces different characters at level 1?

Not really saying I'm behind the suggestion but one thing that pops into mind is... selectable finishers instead of selectable panache generators.

Finishers are one of your big defining features, but I don't think there are enough of them, especially at lower levels. Having options instead of just everyone getting Confident could be a cool way to diversify the class.

confident would still be the best one for the same reason exacting strike is the best one for a fighter though

[Squiggit]

Martialmasters wrote:

confident would still be the best one for the same reason exacting strike is the best one for a fighter though

I mean, which one would end up being the best is just a numbers game.

Also, you're thinking certain strike, not exacting strike.

[Martialmasters]

Squiggit wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

confident would still be the best one for the same reason exacting strike is the best one for a fighter though

I mean, which one would end up being the best is just a numbers game.

Also, you're thinking certain strike, not exacting strike.

correct, mb

[Bandw2]

Squiggit wrote:

Saedar wrote:

Cha/Int Swashbuckler: Phoenix Wright.

Man, panache would have been really cool on the Investigator (renamed to Inspiration).

I've had this thought tooooooo many times when thinking of how if fix the investigator.

[Tokageko]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't there a general "if you do something suitably flashy, impressive, or daring with any skill, at the GM's discretion you gain panache" rule?

Like I don't know what the uses of nature or crafting that can be done with suitable flamboyance to count, but this is the sort of things where I'm happy to let my players figure it out.

My swashbuckler's style is probably going to be informed by Chinese martial arts movies. I foresee a lot of jumps and combat maneuvers, courtesy of the athletics skill.