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For casting 4/5 focus spells (though their being focus spells doesn't really matter, it's not like your focus options are notably bad in comparison to your regular spell choices) as you push the limits of your curse.I adore Blazes of Revelation and other heroic sacrifice tactics.
Falling unconscious with no way to recover for a set amount of time for casting a Focus Spell? Not feeling it.
Even looking at as overclocking, which is what it is, is ehhh, especially since it's "fall asleep for a straight 8 hours".
More of a mood kill than climatic.
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More complicated. You are now tracking 2 things instead of one and you have to also remember a scaling amount of spells cast?I can imagine a lot more errors and wonkiness trying to marry the focus pool/point system to a curse system so they work together. It is much cleaner to simply remove and replace the focus pool/points with the curse mechanic, which will lead to fewer errors down the road.And how many wrongs might come out?How many wrongs might come out if they were completely normal focus spells?
The problem with such a nebulous complaint is that it applies to anything. No matter what the final version of the Oracle looks like, there may or may not eventually be some issue that could cause problems down the road.
Would you say the following is more complicated?
You have a Focus Pool, you regain a Focus Point every time you cast an Oracle Spell, and your Curse advances depending on your current amount. Revelation Spells, being Focus Spells, cost 1 Focus to use.
Which you have to do currently, ever Focus Spell you cast raises your Curse, until it knocks you out if you go over, until you Refocus.
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Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
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Yes? (if I'm reading your question right)
It increases for every Oracle spell you cast and decreases for every Focus spell you cast because its tied to your Focus pool.
So every non focus spell you cast as a full caster increases your curse but you can decrease it once per encounter by casting a focus spell? That seems like you are trying to cripple the oracle not help it.
And still this isn't any simpler. You've still got one more thing to track and the flow is counter intuitive.
No, that direction makes sense. The curse does not have to be the price of the revelation spells. Instead, the curse can be the opposite side of the revelation spells.
The PF1 oracle class is strongly defined by its revelations and I like that. I remember my elder daughter's battle oracle in my Rise of the Runelords campaign. She took an 80-hit-point critical hit from an ogre fighter with a critical-x3 ogre hook, used her Surprising Charge revelation to instantly retreat from the fight, and safely healed herself. She was the only character in the party with over 80 hit points, I think she had 84. Her first revelation, of course, was Skill at Arms, and I remember her regularly using War Sight for a better initiative roll.
Amaya Amatatsu, an escorted NPC in my Jade Regent campaign (spoilers at Amaya of Westcrown), was a time oracle. I altered her Knowledge of the Ages revelation so that she could observe her ancestors on the past; for example, while the party was following the route known as the Path of Aganhei, Amaya could lead the caravan while the caravan leader took a break because she could watch her ancestor Aganhei exploring the route. This let me feed information to the party as if she were a prophetic oracle without trying to forecast the future of the game. Some of my players thought she was an ancestors oracle because she spoke so much about her ancestors. Her Time Flicker and Time Hop were incorporated regularly into her combat style.
The style created by the revelations truly made the oracle different from a cleric. The oracle being a spontaneous caster was almost incidentally to the flavor of the class.
I understand Pathfinder 2nd Edition changing the revelations to focus spells. Most PF1 revelations are one-a-day or twice-a-day abilities because they are so powerful. Limited use abilities in PF2 become focus spells in PF2. That simplifies bookkeeping.
But then tying the focus aspect of revelation spells to advancing curse intensity puts a price on the curse. Okay, some people will point out that the curses give a few advantages, so that it could be an evolving style rather than a price, but those curse-based advantages are sufficiently small that curses are mostly a price. And to further complicate matters, Advanced Revelation (oracle feat 6) and Greater Revelation (oracle feat 10) let the oracle cast a revelation spell once or twice per day without increasing the severity of the curse. In other words, they create a pool of free uses without calling it a pool. The bookkeeping becomes complicated again.
The problem with revelation spells at a price is that it discourages the use of the revelation. If my NPC Amaya had to intensify her curse to use Time Flicker, then she wouldn't have used it. If she had to intensify her curse to have used her Knowledge of the Ages, then it would have ruined the prophetic flavor. Do we want to discourage the use of the abilities that most distinguish the oracle from the cleric and the divine sorcerer?
Next, let's look at the regular oracle spells, the ones that use spontaneous spell slots. Where do those spells come from? Not from study like a wizard, not from the gods like a cleric, not from genetic inherent magic like a sorcerer, not from nature like a druid, and not from music like the bard. No, their source is the mystery, the same source as the oracle's revelation spells. So why don't those spells advance the intensity of the curse, too?
The revelation spells are the purest expression of the mystery and the spontaneous slot spells are less pure. Which is more likely to intensify a curse, a pure spell or an impure spell?
Besides, basing the curse on the spontaneous slot spells allows a cute mathematical trick. Instead of having the spell go up or down, how about having it based on the most recent spell level cast. For the three curse intensitiies--minor, moderate, and major--how about casting a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell sets the curse intensity to minor, casting a 4th, 5th, or 6th level spell sets the curse intensity to moderate, and casting a 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th level spell sets the curse to major? If we want more-intense curses showing up before 7th level, we could add lesser curse and greater curse for smaller divisions. For example, 1st levels spells for minor curse, 2nd and 3rd level spells for lesser curse, 4th and 5th level spells for moderate curse, 6th and 7th level spells for greater curse, and 8th, 9th, and 10th level spells for greater curse.
Then the oracle will immediate set his curse to maximum intensity by casting his highest level spells during combat, and after combat cast an unheightened Heal spell after combat to restore the curse to minor intensity. But he can do this only three times a day because he has only three 1st-level spell slots. And the revelation spells can be ordinary focus spells that do not affect curse intensity at all. Cantrips won't affect the curses either.
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My personal recommendation for the Focus/Not Focus discussion is as follows:
Oracle Revelation Spells are Focus Spells. The Oracle has a Focus Pool of 1, and their Refocus activity is the same as lowering their Curse state. An Oracle is always suffering from their Minor Curse downside.
When casting a Focus Spell, they can instead increase their Curse amount following the normal Curse rules. Advanced Revelation and Greater Revelation both increase their Focus Pool by 1, instead of the "don't increase curse effect" bonus. Oracles don't get a feat to refocus more Focus Points, and instead have their Curse strengthen.
This should be functionally identical, except:
1) Always suffer from the minor curse. You could probably finagle it to work such as by doing something weird with starting with a Focus Pool of size 0, but I don't think that's worth the downside. The Minor curse should be balanced around being always on, I think.
2) The system plays better with abilities that use and add to the Focus Pool.
This feels like a good compromise to me, and I think puts less design stress in with a snowflake system. YMMV
I don't think that works out to be functionally identical. Unless oracles can never Refocus to regain a Focus Point?
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I don't think that works out to be functionally identical. Unless oracles can never Refocus to regain a Focus Point?
Xethik's system is not identical. I view it as better than the system in the playtest.
I, too, want an always-on curse. Having a curse entirely disappear due to a good night's sleep is way too convenient.
An oracle's first revelation spell spends a focus point instead of intensifying a curse. Therefore, it avoids intensifying a curse immediately in combat. Then the oracle can use the revelation spell again on the next turn by intensifying the curse. I complained about putting a discouraging additional price on the revelation spells, but I do not mind putting an alternate price on a revelation spell when out of focus points. That is a benefit rather than a penalty.
And a Refocus activity both lowers the curse and restores a focus point. Well, that pretty much means that oracle can cast twice as many revelation spells than other classes can cast their focus spells. I like enabling revelation.
The design is cleaner because the focus pool and its relation to focus spells are unchanged. Instead, a secondary curse mechanic piggybacks on top of the focus spell rules.
I don't think that works out to be functionally identical. Unless oracles can never Refocus to regain a Focus Point?
You're right; my bad. I had originally written it as a Focus Pool size of 0 to start, but then reworked it because I thought that would be just as awkward and broken.
But yes, with my proposed system the Oracle essentially gets two Focus Points at level 1, between the actual one and the Curse-granted one. Perhaps that is too strong, but I think you could pull a functioning system out of that basic idea.
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An oracle's first revelation spell spends a focus point instead of intensifying a curse. Therefore, it avoids intensifying a curse immediately in combat. Then the oracle can use the revelation spell again on the next turn by intensifying the curse. I complained about putting a discouraging additional price on the revelation spells, but I do not mind putting an alternate price on a revelation spell when out of focus points. That is a benefit rather than a penalty.
I think the result of this is that many oracles will only cast one revelation per combat and never interact with higher curse levels.
And a Refocus activity both lowers the curse and restores a focus point. Well, that pretty much means that oracle can cast twice as many revelation spells than other classes can cast their focus spells. I like enabling revelation.
I don't think that will fly with the design team. Oracles can get access to other classes' focus spells. The oracle already gets several bonus castings of revelation spells per day, regularly getting twice as many per combat strains the system.
I do agree that a constant curse effect would be nice. I think you could make a "least" curse severity from each of the curses as a constant curse effect.
Would making it a feat work for those that want to opt in to constant effects? I could see either a minor benefit for a new "least" level of curse, or a stronger benefit for never going below Minor that would compensate an oracle for giving up a daily revelation spell.
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My personal recommendation for the Focus/Not Focus discussion is as follows:
Oracle Revelation Spells are Focus Spells. The Oracle has a Focus Pool of 1, and their Refocus activity is the same as lowering their Curse state. An Oracle is always suffering from their Minor Curse downside.
When casting a Focus Spell, they can instead increase their Curse amount following the normal Curse rules. Advanced Revelation and Greater Revelation both increase their Focus Pool by 1, instead of the "don't increase curse effect" bonus. Oracles don't get a feat to refocus more Focus Points, and instead have their Curse strengthen.This should be functionally identical, except:
1) Always suffer from the minor curse. You could probably finagle it to work such as by doing something weird with starting with a Focus Pool of size 0, but I don't think that's worth the downside. The Minor curse should be balanced around being always on, I think.2) The system plays better with abilities that use and add to the Focus Pool.
This feels like a good compromise to me, and I think puts less design stress in with a snowflake system. YMMV
this feels much more complicated than
1. when you cast a focus spell your curse advances
2. you always refocus to 1 short of your maximum
3. you reset completely on a night's rest.
i personally like the current system, and now i'm aware that the advance and greater revelation feats make it so you can cast 7 focus spells in a row at level 20(mind you only once per day)...
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My personal recommendation for the Focus/Not Focus discussion is as follows:
Oracle Revelation Spells are Focus Spells. The Oracle has a Focus Pool of 1, and their Refocus activity is the same as lowering their Curse state. An Oracle is always suffering from their Minor Curse downside.
When casting a Focus Spell, they can instead increase their Curse amount following the normal Curse rules. Advanced Revelation and Greater Revelation both increase their Focus Pool by 1, instead of the "don't increase curse effect" bonus. Oracles don't get a feat to refocus more Focus Points, and instead have their Curse strengthen.This should be functionally identical, except:
1) Always suffer from the minor curse. You could probably finagle it to work such as by doing something weird with starting with a Focus Pool of size 0, but I don't think that's worth the downside. The Minor curse should be balanced around being always on, I think.2) The system plays better with abilities that use and add to the Focus Pool.
This feels like a good compromise to me, and I think puts less design stress in with a snowflake system. YMMV
this feels much more complicated than
1. when you cast a focus spell your curse advances
2. you always refocus to 1 short of your maximum
3. you reset completely on a night's rest.i personally like this system, and now i'm aware that the advance and mastery revelation feats make it so you can cast 7 focus spells in a row at level 20...
I don't dislike the Curse system in a vacuum. I think it makes plenty sense and it works well. My concern is how it (doesn't) interact with exterior systems. Having the Revelation spell + No Focus Pool system as is means that developers will need to spend word count making new features work with the Oracle (if they even remember to) OR just severely restrict how the Oracle will interact with archetypes/items that modify Focus.
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Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
By having it on a sliding scale.
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Curse
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I don't dislike the Curse system in a vacuum. I think it makes plenty sense and it works well. My concern is how it (doesn't) interact with exterior systems. Having the Revelation spell + No Focus Pool system as is means that developers will need to spend word count making new features work with the Oracle (if they even remember to) OR just severely restrict how the Oracle will interact with archetypes/items that modify Focus.
I think I'm okay if the oracle doesn't qualify for feats/archetypes/items that require a Focus Pool. Not everything needs to work for them.
Advancing your curse, whatever, you knew what I meant. I will admit that Life may be more punitive than it needs to be but I really don't think pushing for infinite focus spells if you can win a dice roll is helpful.
Life has some nasty side effects but gaining the effects of casting an aoe heal when you are casting some other spell is hella strong action economy wise. If you are really going all out on it you would need some consumables to offset the burn which is a decent cost/offset for it. You also have pretty good control over when you are going into self burn mode so it seems not unreasonable.
As you level you seem like you get a reasonable amount of revelations per 10 minute rest and then batches of free usages of it per day for emergencies. I think we will have to see how this works in game but it is some very interesting risk/reward mechanics. The falling asleep if you over cast does not strike me as too crazy. You won't do this by accident and at low levels GMs would just need to remind players of the downside until they learn it. It does give you that option for that one last gasp shot when you are out of spell slots and capped on your curse to try to take out a boss. The only time you are likely to ever see this done is at a pretty clear stopping point of an adventuring day.
I think I'm okay if the oracle doesn't qualify for feats/archetypes/items that require a Focus Pool. Not everything needs to work for them.Not everything needs to work is not the same as nothing working. Currently nothing relating to focus points works with Oracle.
Well, not nothing, obviously. Focus Spells work for an oracle. And those are really the big thing.
Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
By having it on a sliding scale.
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Curse
I will point that literally inverts Focus Points from the way the rest of the game assumes.
What happens in situations where you start at minor, use a revelation spell twice, and then Refocus? By the setup you have, that can only ever go to moderate. Unless you start re-breaking the rules of how it works for that as well, and then you're just shoehorning in 4 different patchwork solutions surrounding a Focus Pool, and lose any benefits you may have gained from using the existing mechanic.
Also remember just because you cant think of how it will happen doesnt mean it cant, Murphy's Law and all that.
On the other hand 'writers can maybe make mistakes' doesn't really seem like an argument in and of itself to kill a mechanic. Especially when, as you've pointed out, even very basic mechanics can be misinterpreted or broken by weird exploits.
Actually you can take that a step further, if anything can break down if a writer screws up, then is it even a valid argument to single out the potential for it in this case?
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Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
By having it on a sliding scale.
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major CurseI will point that literally inverts Focus Points from the way the rest of the game assumes.
What happens in situations where you start at minor, use a revelation spell twice, and then Refocus? By the setup you have, that can only ever go to moderate. Unless you start re-breaking the rules of how it works for that as well, and then you're just shoehorning in 4 different patchwork solutions surrounding a Focus Pool, and lose any benefits you may have gained from using the existing mechanic.
How? You spend Focus Points to use Focus Spells.
You gain Focus by using Oracle Spells.
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Also remember just because you cant think of how it will happen doesnt mean it cant, Murphy's Law and all that.On the other hand 'writers can maybe make mistakes' doesn't really seem like an argument in and of itself to kill a mechanic. Especially when, as you've pointed out, even very basic mechanics can be misinterpreted or broken by weird exploits.
Actually you can take that a step further, if anything can break down if a writer screws up, then is it even a valid argument to single out the potential for it in this case?
I’m pretty sure the designers have a lot of thoughts on how to alter mechanics safely. I’m almost certain this is something Mark thinks about a lot. They know *how* those errors happen better than any of us, and the Oracle is clearly designed to avoid the common causes of weird exploits, misinterpretation, and brokenness. Yes, it adds complexity. But, in the safest way possible that makes it easy for developers to catch mistakes.
It’s not enough to throw up our hands and say new mechanics cause FAQ issues. We need to understand why new things do that and how we can reduce the risk of FAQs.
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I don't like the no focus pool mechanic.
I don't like the 'any focus spell, even those not relating for oracle increase your curse' doesn't feel very connected. Why should 'any' focus spell trigger my curse if the source isn't my mystery? I am bending the universe to do a ki strike so why does it trigger my curse? My training to use a ki strike has nothing to do with my curse.
Better just to have curse effect and revelations as non-focus connected entirely. Its not that much extra to manage a focus pool and the curse level, especially if they are not connected.
To further complicate things we have the feats that allow Oracle's to cast focus spells without trigger their curse 1 per day breaking the whole focus pool paradigm again. Its not really a great solution.
Thematically using revelations and increasing your curse is fine but there no decent argument for linking non-oracle focus spells with the curse.
There is no benefit or simplification to linking revelations/curses to the focus system. The only mechanic that is re-used is the concept of refocusing. Otherwise revelations spells don't use focus, don't cost focus and pretty much have nothing to do with focus so why force focus concepts from all the other classes on to them? Revelations already have an inbuilt balance system with curses, if the powers of them need to be tweaked then do so.
I am also a fan of the idea that their should be an 'always on' part of your curse. It suddenly going completely away cause I slept doesn't work thematically for me. Make a minor always on version of it.
TLDR: Don't link revelations and curses to a focus pool. Have them a separate system. Everyone wins without the mental gymnastics of explaining why ki strike triggers my flame curse. It also removes chances for misalignment of focus dependencies with others later.
PS: I would like more Oracle feats to grant buffs while under the affect of my curse so I can make more tactical choices about going up in curse levels without strictly feeling like its always a punishment.
I don't like the no focus pool mechanic.
I don't like the 'any focus spell, even those not relating for oracle increase your curse' doesn't feel very connected. Why should 'any' focus spell trigger my curse if the source isn't my mystery? I am bending the universe to do a ki strike so why does it trigger my curse? My training to use a ki strike has nothing to do with my curse.
All focus spells intensifying the curse apparently was an early error that was quickly corrected in the document itself, so some of us never saw the error. See the discussion at Overall Initial Thoughts #12. In the version I downloaded, only revelation spells intensify the curse.
EDIT: I was wrong. According to the oracle rules in page 15, all focus spells for an oracle convert into curse-intensifying spells.
Revelation Spells
You can cast revelation spells, which are a type of focus spell. Though it normally costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, as an oracle, you do not have a focus pool and can never gain one by any means, even if you take a feat that would grant you Focus Points or a focus pool. Instead, you cast revelation spells, or other focus spells you learn, by drawing upon the power of your mystery, which incurs the effects of your oracular curse (see below).
Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
By having it on a sliding scale.
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major CurseI will point that literally inverts Focus Points from the way the rest of the game assumes.
What happens in situations where you start at minor, use a revelation spell twice, and then Refocus? By the setup you have, that can only ever go to moderate. Unless you start re-breaking the rules of how it works for that as well, and then you're just shoehorning in 4 different patchwork solutions surrounding a Focus Pool, and lose any benefits you may have gained from using the existing mechanic.
How? You spend Focus Points to use Focus Spells.
You gain Focus by using Oracle Spells.
So then what happens if you use a revelation spell, then a standard focus spell?
You have to lose Focus when you Refocus instead of the other way around.You have to understand the whole fact that your Focus pool reverses.
There's a ton of random extra exceptions that have to be made constantly that just makes it not function.
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No, I believe the language for Revelation Spells implies that all Focus spells you learn become Revelation Spells, regardless of source. I believe the confusion came in from Focus Spells vs Non-Focus Spells, not Revelation vs Focus spells.
That being said, the language on what constitutes a Revelation spell could probably be clarified.
EDIT: This is in response to the focus spells intensifying curse discussion, I forgot to quote
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Yeah, I'm having trouble parsing Rysky's suggestion. How does the curse level depend on the Focus Pool?
Between the two, I'd definitely pick "Every time you cast a focus spell, the severity of your curse increases one step. You can Refocus to reduce the severity to minor."
By having it on a sliding scale.
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major CurseI will point that literally inverts Focus Points from the way the rest of the game assumes.
What happens in situations where you start at minor, use a revelation spell twice, and then Refocus? By the setup you have, that can only ever go to moderate. Unless you start re-breaking the rules of how it works for that as well, and then you're just shoehorning in 4 different patchwork solutions surrounding a Focus Pool, and lose any benefits you may have gained from using the existing mechanic.
How? You spend Focus Points to use Focus Spells.
You gain Focus by using Oracle Spells.
So then what happens if you use a revelation spell, then a standard focus spell?
You have to lose Focus when you Refocus instead of the other way around.
You have to understand the whole fact that your Focus pool reverses.There's a ton of random extra exceptions that have to be made constantly that just makes it not function.
???
Those both cost a Focus Point so you'd be down two Focus Points.
I'm not seeing the reversal.
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No, I believe the language for Revelation Spells implies that all Focus spells you learn become Revelation Spells, regardless of source. I believe the confusion came in from Focus Spells vs Non-Focus Spells, not Revelation vs Focus spells.
That being said, the language on what constitutes a Revelation spell could probably be clarified.
*nods*
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Also remember just because you cant think of how it will happen doesnt mean it cant, Murphy's Law and all that.On the other hand 'writers can maybe make mistakes' doesn't really seem like an argument in and of itself to kill a mechanic. Especially when, as you've pointed out, even very basic mechanics can be misinterpreted or broken by weird exploits.
Actually you can take that a step further, if anything can break down if a writer screws up, then is it even a valid argument to single out the potential for it in this case?
What is more likely than writers making mistakes is players and GMs having misunderstandings.
NEW PLAYER: (reading a rulebook) What is a focus spell?
GM: It is a spell cast with focus points from a focus pool instead of using prepared spells or a spell slot. All focus spells cost exactly one focus point regardless of spell level, and all focus pools start with one focus point that refreshes every morning. Some feats increase the size of the focus pool to two or three points, but it doesn't go more than three. A focus point can also be restored by performing a ten-minute Refocus activity that involves service to the god or principle that provides the power.
NEW PLAYER: What about the curse part?
GM: Curse part? (realizes that the player is reading the Advanced Player's Guide) Oh, that is the oracle's own version of focus spells, called revelation spells. They don't use focus pools, so ignore everything I said about focus pools unless you decided to play a cleric or champion or monk. The curse mechanic is that the oracle can activate a minor curse, or bump a minor curse up to moderate curse, in order to pay for a revelation spell. Except it is written as a consequence rather than a cost, so you can cast the spell and then drop unconscious if you can't bump up the curse any further. At 11th level the oracle can bump up the curse higher to major curse. The ten-minute Refocus activity I mentioned before can bump down the curse, except that a minor curse can be removed only by sleeping for eight hours.
NEW PLAYER: So an oracle spends a focus point and bumps up the curse.
GM: (sigh) No.
Really, my explanations to players are much longer-winded than the above examples and I usually have to repeat the explanation several times. I discovered that prying a wrong idea out of my players' minds is extremely difficult and it warps their understanding of any further explanation.
EDIT: And I myself misunderstand the rules sometimes, as the example below illustrates.
*nods*No, I believe the language for Revelation Spells implies that all Focus spells you learn become Revelation Spells, regardless of source. I believe the confusion came in from Focus Spells vs Non-Focus Spells, not Revelation vs Focus spells.
That being said, the language on what constitutes a Revelation spell could probably be clarified.
Somehow, my attention slipped past the first paragraph under Revelation Spells and I missed this.
Revelation Spells
You can cast revelation spells, which are a type of focus spell. Though it normally costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, as an oracle, you do not have a focus pool and can never gain one by any means, even if you take a feat that would grant you Focus Points or a focus pool. Instead, you cast revelation spells, or other focus spells you learn, by drawing upon the power of your mystery, which incurs the effects of your oracular curse (see below).
I can understand that having two kinds of focus spells with independent ways of paying for them would double the resources for focus spells, and Paizo decided to avoid the doubling. But this solution is terrible.
And what will the Oracle Dedication do to focus spells? Suppose a monk with a focus pool took an Oracle dedication, will it keep its original focus pool or convert to intensifying curses? Will that be different when a fighter without a focus pool takes an Oracle Dedication? Or will the Oracle Dedication simply not grant revelation spells?
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No, I believe the language for Revelation Spells implies that all Focus spells you learn become Revelation Spells, regardless of source. I believe the confusion came in from Focus Spells vs Non-Focus Spells, not Revelation vs Focus spells.
That being said, the language on what constitutes a Revelation spell could probably be clarified.
EDIT: This is in response to the focus spells intensifying curse discussion, I forgot to quote
Again though the idea that all focus spells I learn from other training suddenly being 'revelations' when they have nothing to do thematically with my curse is both a major narrative disconnect and a poor thing to balance around.
Two characters in the same game, Joe a fighter and Sue an Oracle decide to train at the temple of the Iron Lotus and pick up monk dedication and learn the ki strike feat. Joe uses ki strike and suffers no penalty where as Sue suddenly manifests her curse from using the same ability learned in the same way...
Its a silly situation that could be avoided by just keeping focus and revelations as entirely different things. Who cares if a character can use both? They will have had to pay for both with feats. The balance for being able to use revelations is the associated penalty of the curse. The only mechanic which ties them is the refocus activity which could easily both reset curse back to minor while still granting a focus point if applicable. If a player wants to build their character around both I don't see that it will be game breaking given they still only have so many actions per round and the average combat is still designed around 4 rounds.
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Somehow, my attention slipped past the first paragraph under Revelation Spells and I missed this.
Revelation Spells
You can cast revelation spells, which are a type of focus spell. Though it normally costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, as an oracle, you do not have a focus pool and can never gain one by any means, even if you take a feat that would grant you Focus Points or a focus pool. Instead, you cast revelation spells, or other focus spells you learn, by drawing upon the power of your mystery, which incurs the effects of your oracular curse (see below).I can understand that having two kinds of focus spells with independent ways of paying for them would double the resources for focus spells, and Paizo decided to avoid the doubling. But this solution is terrible.
And what will the Oracle Dedication do to focus spells? Suppose a monk with a focus pool took an Oracle dedication, will it keep its original focus pool or convert to intensifying curses? Will that be different when a fighter without a focus pool takes an Oracle Dedication? Or will the Oracle Dedication simply not grant revelation spells?
It would be a lot less confusing to just say their curse increases when using Focus Spells and to not go out of their way to avoid using the F-word.
I don't dislike the Curse system in a vacuum. I think it makes plenty sense and it works well. My concern is how it (doesn't) interact with exterior systems. Having the Revelation spell + No Focus Pool system as is means that developers will need to spend word count making new features work with the Oracle (if they even remember to) OR just severely restrict how the Oracle will interact with archetypes/items that modify Focus.I think I'm okay if the oracle doesn't qualify for feats/archetypes/items that require a Focus Pool. Not everything needs to work for them.Not everything needs to work is not the same as nothing working. Currently nothing relating to focus points works with Oracle.
i mean yeah, the only things that effect a focus pool currently are the max value or how many you have currently. if something does something else more complex, it's in the same boat as the current curse mechanics are in that it'll break pretty much every other item.
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It would be a lot less confusing to just say their curse increases when using Focus Spells and to not go out of their way to avoid using the F-word.
i'm pretty sure that is exactly what they say, though.
You can cast revelation spells, which are a type of focus spell. Though it normally costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, as an oracle, you do not have a focus pool and can never gain one by any means, even if you take a feat that would grant you Focus Points or a focus pool. Instead, you cast revelation spells, or other focus spells you learn, by drawing upon the power of your mystery, which incurs the effects of your oracular curse (see below).
so i don't think that even solves your problems with it.
do people realize that if they just added a focus pool and you used the number of missing focus points to determine your curse level, you'd have no mechanically difference from what you have now? except the player now needs to do subtraction and have a little table ready to figure out what level of their curse.
if your going to say "well they can just count up how many times they've used spells or increment their curse upwards each time", i'd say yes, that's exactly what paizo has implemented, and if that is the case why do you also need to keep track of focus points?
the point is tracking a curse level and focus points simultaneously are sulfurous. there is no added information from also tracking focus points.
likewise locking it out of items makes it so you can make focus spells from class abilities very powerful as you know stuff you write later won't make this ivory tower design again.
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I was referring to the current situation involving your curse rising when using other Focus spells.
The "Instead, you cast Revelation Spells" part is unnecessary. There's not Revelation Spells and Focus Spells, Revelation Spells are a type of Focus Spell. Just say your curse increases when you cast Focus Spells.
I was referring to the current situation involving your curse rising when using other Focus spells.
The "Instead, you cast Revelation Spells" part is unnecessary. There's not Revelation Spells and Focus Spells, Revelation Spells are a type of Focus Spell. Just say your curse increases when you cast Focus Spells.
sure, and just to make sure you don't miss this in the edit, why do i need to track curse and focus pool separately, especially since the 2 systems run entirely locked but in opposition meaning i have to constantly use subtraction to figure one out from the other? (like seriously, i could imagine myself using focus points to figure out how many i have, but at 11th level, i forget i have 3 focus points now for free, and maybe i haven't played in a session or two, so habit kicks in i see i have 1 focus point and only give myself the minor curse effect, even though i'm at 1 out of 3 and should be at moderate.)
sure, it's not going to let you use items or abilities that give you back focus points or trigger when you have a number of focus points(i really can't think of many systems that could interact with just a focus pool very well). but the oracle already gets those for free with their revelation feats. they have so much focus point stuff baked into the class, that just simply couldn't be there if any item could effect it like it was a focus pool.
so what does the added complexity give me? the strongest focus caster in the game currently, with mechanics that make focus casting interesting (except life oracle) and make it something i have to really think about and not just a check i pay to cast a spell in combat. (edit: oh and they're tightly knit and so won't have to deal with potential imbalancing from the creation of new items in the future.)
Are you talking about how it is currently or what I've been suggesting, because these last comments have been about how it currently functions and could function better with just a change of wording rather than a mechanical overhaul.
the former (and later???, there's too many versions floating around for me to know what you mean by "what i've been suggesting"), and the way your proposing is making me track more things that are ultimately superfluous. I don't need a seperate tracker for focus and curse.
AS WELL, limiting to no focus pool means that the oracle can be a self contained beast in relation to focus casting. because items that work generically with a focus pool can silently super buff the oracle. (and thus they'd have to nerf all the free oracle curse abilities that give them an effective massive focus pool for free and free refocusing feats.)
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Are you talking about how it is currently or what I've been suggesting, because these last comments have been about how it currently functions and could function better with just a change of wording rather than a mechanical overhaul.the former (and later???, there's too many versions floating around for me to know what you mean by "what i've been suggesting"), and the way your proposing is making me track more things that are ultimately superfluous. I don't need a seperate tracker for focus and curse.
AS WELL, limiting to no focus pool means that the oracle can be a self contained beast in relation to focus casting. because items that work generically with a focus pool can silently super buff the oracle. (and thus they'd have to nerf all the free oracle curse abilities that give them an effective massive focus pool for free and free refocusing feats.)
(so we are? I guess?)
You wouldn't need a separate tracker for my suggestion, Curse goes on a sliding scale with your Focus Pool, it's not two separate pools.
Are you talking about how it is currently or what I've been suggesting, because these last comments have been about how it currently functions and could function better with just a change of wording rather than a mechanical overhaul.the former (and later???, there's too many versions floating around for me to know what you mean by "what i've been suggesting"), and the way your proposing is making me track more things that are ultimately superfluous. I don't need a seperate tracker for focus and curse.
AS WELL, limiting to no focus pool means that the oracle can be a self contained beast in relation to focus casting. because items that work generically with a focus pool can silently super buff the oracle. (and thus they'd have to nerf all the free oracle curse abilities that give them an effective massive focus pool for free and free refocusing feats.)
(so we are? I guess?)
You wouldn't need a separate tracker for my suggestion, Curse goes on a sliding scale with your Focus Pool, it's not two separate pools.
(i honestly, can't say)
i need to know what level my curse is at, AND how many focus points i have left.
having 1 focus point left at level 1 is different than having 1 focus point left at level 11, my curse will be at a different level.
meaning there isn't a universalis overriding table you can use for focus point value = X then Curse is = Y.
meaning you always have to do max pool - current pool = level.
or, just scrap tracking focus pool entirely, and only track curse.
sure it's more complicated to initially learn, but it's easier to run in play after you've learned it.
Uh,
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Curse
i wake, up, have 2 focus points in my pool and no curse active.
10 levels later, i have 2 focus points in my pool after casting a focus point, i have a minor curse effect.
in neither of those examples is 2 focus points a moderate curse.
also i guess we are getting rid of extreme curse then?
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Uh,
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Cursei wake, up, have 2 focus points in my pool and no curse active.
10 levels later, i have 2 focus points in my pool after casting a focus point, i have a minor curse effect.
in neither of those examples is 2 focus points a moderate curse.
also i guess we are getting rid of extreme curse then?
I don’t understand the examples you’re giving or what it has to do with my theoretical version.
And Extreme Curse would just need to be tweaked, go off an Oracle spell instead of a Revelation Spell I guess on first glance.
Uh,
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Curse
The curse is supposed to increase as you spend points. That's the opposite.
Standard focus pool is you wake up with, say, 2 points. If you spend 2 in one combat, you go down to 0, and Refocusing brings you back up to 1.
Under your system, all of that is so far distorted that it's a focus pool in name only, and is realistically a completely different system.