The downtime rules seem like an interesting take on the non-adventuring bits.. how to adult in Golarion 2.0.
That said, it also appears to be more or less optional. A campaign might have zero downtime, rushing from one encounter to the next, or it could be laden with it, with significant breaks between adventures.
The Alchemist is, as far as I can tell, the only class with a class feat, Efficient Alchemy (Feat 4), that depends on use of Downtime, enabling the Alchemist in question to create two batches of consumables at a time (8 instead of 4) when using the Craft skill during Downtime. This could allow creation of additional non-infused copies of various items to augment the infused versions during Encounter mode.
If, however, an Alchemist takes this feat at level 4, the campaign may very well evolve into something that lacks Downtime to take advantage of. Of course, you can attempt to retrain (though again that requires Downtime) but it really feels like a feat that comes with not a lot of upside and a great deal of ambiguity regarding potential usefulness in the future. This differs from most other class feats across all classes in that the abilities they open up stay generally applicable in most scenarios.
What are you plans for using Downtime in your campaigns? Do you feel it is something you should try to work in more? Are you planning not to plan for it (i.e. no real change, just take it as it comes in the campaign)? Would you feel obligated to include it if someone's character was built to make use of it (i.e. Alchemist or just generally a Crafter)?
It will depend a lot on the campaign and the kind of story that's being told. Usually, if I notice my players express interest in downtime activities (either them discussing those options, or saying privately or publicly they're planning to make use of them), I will try to provide them with opportunities to put those in use, or talk to them before they invest in character options if I can't find a way to make the story I've got planned fit their expectations.
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even in scenarios with a lot of downtime, Efficient Alchemy is worthless.
The feat basically reads: "IF you have downtime, and IF you craft potions in downtime, and IF you make at least 2 batches of consumables, save 4 days of downtime (worth like a few gp...)"
it only reduces the initial time to "4 days for 2 batches" but the actual benefits of crafting (i.e. gold saved) are still calculated like every other character.
so, a character that spents 10 days crafting, will save the exact same amount of money with and without said feat.
Since you save nothing on the second batch, it means that you can simply buy the potions (which doesn't take time) and be at exactly the same spot.
as an example:
efficient alchemy:
alchemist spends 10 days, 4 initial and gets 6 days worth of crafting discount and 2 batches of potions.
net profit: 2 batches of consumables+6 days worth of downtime earnings
without efficient alchemy:
alchemist spends 10 days, 4 initial and gets 6 days worth of crafting discount and 1 batch of potions, he buys the other batch from a shop.
net profit: 2 batches of consumables+6 days worth of downtime earnings
The ONLY use of the feat is very strict "survival type" campaigns without access to shops AND simultaneously needing a lot of consumables. And even then, it only saves you 4 days of downtime per downtime session. If you stop for a month, as an example, it saves you 4 days in that month (since you can always craft a full batch at the exact same price that the feat gives you in 4 days)... yay?
It's basically a skill feat at best, not even a high level one, i'd say "expert craft" levels of skill feat and you wouldn't pick it even then.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
You're assuming that you can "simply buy" such items anywhere.
This said, I agree that crafting seems like a waste of time now. In PF1 it was way too fast, and too easy, but I can't help feeling that in PF2 they've gone too far the other way.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber
The Fall of Plaguestone has no alchemy shops for plot reasons.
For prewritten I think chapter/level is a good time to stop for downtime. 4 days is just a long weekend.
It's also nice for crafting those Uncommon formulas that you found in the evil alchemist's lair, since you know being uncommon you can't "just buy" them.
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Wheldrake wrote: You're assuming that you can "simply buy" such items anywhere.
This said, I agree that crafting seems like a waste of time now. In PF1 it was way too fast, and too easy, but I can't help feeling that in PF2 they've gone too far the other way.
i do not assume anything.
i even said that even if you can't buy them, the feat only gives you 4 days of downtime earnings for each downtime session. At level 10 as an example, it saves you a whole 24gp!"
24 gp is nothing at level 10.
if you have downtime for a month, you get 4 extra days of "income". That'a handful of gp.
I think it maths out that "for each 7-10 downtime sessions (not days, whole sessions) you get a batch of consumables"
it's literally trash even IF you can't buy anything.
Kelseus wrote: It's also nice for crafting those Uncommon formulas that you found in the evil alchemist's lair, since you know being uncommon you can't "just buy" them. again.
changes nothing.
you can craft them normally.
the only thing the feat gives you is 1 free batch for every 7-10 sessions of downtime.
Aside the fact that 10 sessions is incredibly long, even then, the reward is extremely terrible for the cost of a whole Class Feat.
From my look over of this feat (Efficient Alchemy) it does look bad if you are just considering money made and saved. However if you are making things that you can not purchase and are willing to pay full price for them it literally doubles the speed you make them at.
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Apophenia wrote: From my look over of this feat (Efficient Alchemy) it does look bad if you are just considering money made and saved. However if you are making things that you can not purchase and are willing to pay full price for them it literally doubles the speed you make them at. It doesn't though, unless you're making things way below your level.
If you are making 8 of something it takes you 4 less days, that's all, because the total cost is the same.
I'd be hard pressed to find a worse class feat but I can't say so definitively because I haven't read them all. Maybe another alchemist feat.
Edit: I misread your post, you are correct, it does double your craft speed if you pay full price. So all we need are consumables that are worth the cost and we're set. That's another thread though :)
shroudb wrote: Things You're ignoring the fact that a party with limited downtime with said Alch will end up having TWICE as many Alchemical Items at their disposal than otherwise possible.
Sure that's not a big win if you only ever play games where you have Ye Olde' Alchemist/Magic Item/Enchanter Shop on every corner but frankly, I'm not sure I see anything in any of the core material that suggests that kind of thing should even exist at ALL outside of the nations Capital Cities and Absalom itself.
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Themetricsystem wrote: shroudb wrote: Things You're ignoring the fact that a party with limited downtime with said Alch will end up having TWICE as many Alchemical Items at their disposal than otherwise possible.
Sure that's not a big win if you only ever play games where you have Ye Olde' Alchemist/Magic Item/Enchanter Shop on every corner but frankly, I'm not sure I see anything in any of the core material that suggests that kind of thing should even exist at ALL outside of the nations Capital Cities and Absalom itself. STOP STRAWMANING: again, no one said anything about magic shops. You keep trying to say that this is the only reason the feat sucks. No the feat sucks even without them. The ONLY mention of magic shops was that: the single magic shop makes it 100% obsolete.
For the rest:
It would need a really specialized hardcore survival setting that you need to be using so many consumables that you need to be making 8 of them every 4 days just to keep up.
So, ok, if you go dune hunting every day in Dark Sun, it may be usable.
As an example of how absurd a setting is:
if you make just a single "double batch" you are basically 2 items of your level lower than you could have been. As a comparison, you only have ONE item of your level on average.
So yeah, again, it's easily the WORST class feat in the book by MILES.
The only time it does ANYTHING (i don't consider 24gp at level 10 to be anything) is if:
a)you play in a setting without alchemical shops (not magic, shops. Alchemy shops)
AND
b)you are only getting downtime in 4 days spans. Not 10 days, not 1 month. ONLY 4 days breaks for no reason at all.
AND
c)you are going against WAY over your challenge rating constantly (only reason to spam consumables) and never against normal challenge ratings
AND
d)you are time constraints to actually do so
If all 4 of those situations happen simultaneously in your campaign.
Then yes, it's usable.
"great feat"
Math Incoming
Lets say you are a level 4 Alchemist who just bought this feat. You and your team have some downtime before heading out into a desert and you want to craft 8 Lesser Salamander Elixirs (which seem useful to you).
If you have Efficient Alchemy you can work on all eight simultaneously. You spend 4 days and 60 gold pieces preparing and then you start your work. You are level 4 and are expert in crafting so you progress at 8 silver pieces per day. It would take you 75 days to finish paying off the rest of the crafting for a total time of 79 days to finish.
If you do not Efficient Alchemy you can only work on four simultaneously. You spend 4 days and 30 gold pieces preparing the first batch and then you start your work. You are level 4 and are expert in crafting so you progress at 8 silver pieces per day. It would take you 38 (37.5 rounds up to 38) days to finish paying off the rest of the crafting. You do this twice for a total time of 84 days.
There is a difference of 5 days of work between the two (or about 40 silver).
Another Example:
You are in a remote desert town with no access to an alchemy shop. You need to head out into the desert as quick as possible save the world but really need 16 Lesser Salamander Elixers before heading out.
The Efficient Alchemist takes 4 days and 120 gold pieces to make 8 Lesser Salamander Elixers. They do this twice for a total time of 8 days.
The normal Alchemist takes 4 days and 60 gold pieces to make 4 Lesser Salamander Elixers. They do this four times for a total time of 16 days.
TLDR; If you are using downtime crafting to make money this feat does not help a lot. If you regularly do not have alchemy shops and need to quickly craft alchemical items it does double the speed.
I believe the math here is right. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Apophenia wrote: Math Incoming
Lets say you are a level 4 Alchemist who just bought this feat. You and your team have some downtime before heading out into a desert and you want to craft 8 Lesser Salamander Elixirs (which seem useful to you).
If you have Efficient Alchemy you can work on all eight simultaneously. You spend 4 days and 60 gold pieces preparing and then you start your work. You are level 4 and are expert in crafting so you progress at 8 silver pieces per day. It would take you 75 days to finish paying off the rest of the crafting for a total time of 79 days to finish.
If you do not Efficient Alchemy you can only work on four simultaneously. You spend 4 days and 30 gold pieces preparing the first batch and then you start your work. You are level 4 and are expert in crafting so you progress at 8 silver pieces per day. It would take you 38 (37.5 rounds up to 38) days to finish paying off the rest of the crafting. You do this twice for a total time of 84 days.
There is a difference of 5 days of work between the two (or about 40 silver).
Another Example:
You are in a remote desert town with no access to an alchemy shop. You need to head out into the desert as quick as possible save the world but really need 16 Lesser Salamander Elixers before heading out.
The Efficient Alchemist takes 4 days and 120 gold pieces to make 8 Lesser Salamander Elixers. They do this twice for a total time of 8 days.
The normal Alchemist takes 4 days and 60 gold pieces to make 4 Lesser Salamander Elixers. They do this four times for a total time of 16 days.
TLDR; If you are using downtime crafting to make money this feat does not help a lot. If you regularly do not have alchemy shops and need to quickly craft alchemical items it does double the speed.
I believe the math here is right. Please correct me if I am wrong.
in your first example:
you just craft one batch at normal price (0 refund) and you have exactly 4 days less income on the second batch (since you used those 4 days on the 1st batch).
so, you effectively "won" 32 silver pieces. A feat is worth way more than 3gp/level....
On the second example, no, the math is indeed correct, but it's the 4x situations happenning all at once, that i described earlier.
a)no shop
b)very tight on time (8 days is fine but 16 is too much?)
c)specific downtime limits (if you were in the desert, why didn't you craft some before, and etc)
d)constantly going over your challenge rating (or else it's a feat usable once in the campaign)
also, it's purely unrealistic because:
if you are in such tight time constraints that 8 days more are too much. Then why don't you use your actually daily resources, as an alchemist, to get over the desert with 0 days spent instead of the 8 you have to spend a feat as well for?
The feat has nothing to do with saving on money Shroudb. It never was supposed to really do that, the WBL guidelines are in place to ensure that things don't get out of hand.
The feat is to help a player create more useful items for their adventure, but I'm afraid I think we're talking past one another here.
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Themetricsystem wrote: The feat has nothing to do with saving on money Shroudb. It never was supposed to really do that, the WBL guidelines are in place to ensure that things don't get out of hand.
The feat is to help a player create more useful items for their adventure, but I'm afraid I think we're talking past one another here.
but it doesn't let them create more useful items.
they create the exact same things with or without the feat.
the only thing it saves them is 4 days od downtime for each downtime session.
if the downtime session is like 20 days, it saves them 4 days off that.
That's hardly called a class feat. Again, i can see it as an "expert at craft" skill feat, but that's about it.
you do NOT have the wbl to "spam" crafting in 4 days intervals to "double production".
That's hard coded as a big no in the system.
each "batch of items" is worth about a single permanent item, so "spamming" 4 days crafts is really just demolishing your WBL to the point of making your character unplayable.
People here still think of old wbl where "potions and consumables" were common and affordable.
they are not anymore.
Each batch is equally precious to an equal level permanent item.
So, unless you're playing in a setting that one can produce a permanent item every 4 days, you won't be spamming craft every 4 days either.
In a campaign with minimal downtime, I'd probably adjust the retraining rules. I'd either make it something that can happen in the evening (like foraging for food) or just something that can be done for free when the character levels up. If the player chose a feat that's literally doing nothing at all because of how the campaign runs, I'd probably even just let them reselect the feat right away. Depending on the circumstances, I might try to find some other minor cost to attach to this retraining.
I understand the motivations for putting a safety valve on retraining, but I consider the ability to adjust a character something that's too useful for maximizing everybody's enjoyment to limit it to campaigns that happen to feature substantial stretches of downtime (or the use of a fifth-level spell to which the party is very unlikely to have access.)
I like the feat a fair bit. But.
I wish this was one of the feats that was built into the class, instead of being a feat. (The Int splash two feats are the other feats I wish were class abilities).
because if you can use it, I like it a lot, but quite often you can not use it. And taking it directly impacts in game combat and exploration contributions that you could have picked up with said feat instead.
(also I just feel like alch class abilities don't tie together much)
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I find myself wishing, greatly, that this was a Skill Feat or that it had a special line that stated that the Alchemist could pick up the feat via a skill feat instead of a class feat. As a special case.
I would give consideration to picking it up as a skill feat. but I can't justify it as a class feat really. Class feats shouldn't be something you can only use once in a long while or possibly not at all.
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