Wild Shaped Monk Druid shenanigans.

[aadu]

Ok let's say I'm a level 4+ Monk that's taken the druid dedication, wild order, and wild shape feat.

For the rest of the game I would get to use the wild shape spell. What I'm wondering is would I be able to use my monk stats for unarmored defence, unarmed attacks (like wolf stance jaws), and Ki spells like quivering palm all while in wild shape?

5e stops a lot of these shenanigans but it seems fairly balanced in Pathfinder. I'm imagining myself as a Huge Ape at lvl 10 with 20 temp hp and 15 foot reach flurrying all my blows!

Can I do this or is there some optimization I'm missing?

Cheers!

[NielsenE]

Are you talking about wild shape or wild morph, the two act very differently.

In wild morph parts of your body change, but you generally are still using your own stats -- so I think a monk might get some use out of the wild morph claws/bite options (assuming they scale better/differently than your native monk stuff).

Under wild shape however your stat's become the polymorphed creatures stats. There is one exception for letting you use your own attack bonus in place of the polymorphed bonus (with a bonus if you are wild order), but your AC is what the spell says, not what you had before.

You can't use class abilities, spells, focus points, etc while in your wild shape.

[aadu]

NielsenE wrote:

Are you talking about wild shape or wild morph, the two act very differently.

In wild morph parts of your body change, but you generally are still using your own stats -- so I think a monk might get some use out of the wild morph claws/bite options (assuming they scale better/differently than your native monk stuff).

Under wild shape however your stat's become the polymorphed creatures stats. There is one exception for letting you use your own attack bonus in place of the polymorphed bonus (with a bonus if you are wild order), but your AC is what the spell says, not what you had before.

You can't use class abilities, spells, focus points, etc while in your wild shape.

Gotcha, yeah I'm specifically talking about wild shape. So no quivering palm while in Ape form. The form is still useful for turning into birds and stuff I guess.

[aadu]

Actually now that I'm looking at the polymorph trait. "Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. "

I believe that this leaves me to be able to use unarmed attack sequences like flurry of blows and any monk abilities that aren't spell based, right?

[Cellion]

You can use flurry of blows while polymorphed as far as I can tell. You can use your own unarmed attack bonus, and your own athletics bonus, but have to use the exact damage and ACs given by the spell. As mentioned above, you can't use any of your focus spells, because you're not allowed to cast spells while polymorphed. Unfortunately, you also can't use the Strikes that your stances grant, because spells like animal form explicitly restrict which strikes you can use.

Relevant Text in the Polymorph trait description:

Polymorph; Pg 301 wrote:

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the

special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses,
status bonuses, and penalties. Unless otherwise noted, the
battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and
using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s
doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)
Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your
gear still function, but you can’t activate any items.

Animal Form Strike restriction:

Animal Form; pg 317 wrote:

One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the

battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you
can use. You’re trained with them. Your attack modifier
is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks
are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled
condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus
is higher, you can use it instead.

Note that some stances, like Crane stance, explicitly say that you can ONLY make crane strike attacks, and no other strikes. Not sure how that's supposed to interact with the form spells that block all other strike types...

[Cellion]

This seems like an OK multiclass until about level 12 or so. The status bonus to attack rolls from wild shape means that your accuracy with your natural attacks gets to be on-par with an unbuffed Fighter. The damage rolls for the animal forms are about on par with what your unarmed stance strikes would be doing.

The benefits are primarily:

Temp HP!

Better movement modes.

+2 on attack rolls

Improved reach

The downsides are:

Locks you out of your focus spells

Slightly lower AC than when you're not transformed. (about 1 lower below 12th level, scaling to up to 4 lower at 20th)

Animal form stops heightening at 9th level. Unlocking additional forms is impractical because of the restrictions on picking up druid feats when multiclassing (you have to be 16th level to pick up your dino form, for example).

[aadu]

Okay so I'm looking at this power at lvl 10:

Heightened (5th) Your battle form is Huge and your attacks have 15-foot reach. You must have enough space to expand into or the spell is lost. You instead gain 20 temporary HP, AC = 18 + your level, attack modifier +18, damage bonus +7 and double the number of damage dice, and Athletics +20.

I'm looking at using Ape:

Ape Speed 25 feet, climb Speed 20 feet; Melee Single Action fist, Damage 2d6 bludgeoning.

I feel like as an Ape you'd be able to use as many martial abilities as possible.

So at level 10 as a monk You can use the ape wild shape with AC 28, your normal unarmed attack bonus, 4d6 damage dice (double 2d6 from Ape). You can run around and flurry of blows at 15 foot reach and use your own athletics modifier as well.

Question: Can you use your own unarmed attack bonus or is it just the damage? Either way you get to add 2 from the druid feat.

>" If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead."

^^^ That's the quote, so can I use my own attack modifier and damage bonus?

[Cellion]

You can use your own attack modifier for unarmed strikes, but you have to use the damage dice and flat damage provided by the form spell.

So for example, a strength based monk at 10th level can get

Melee Single Action fist +23, Damage 4d6+7 bludgeoning

Your attack bonus here is +14 for expert in unarmed, +2 status bonus from the wild shape spell, +5 Strength, and +2 item bonus from the appropriate handwraps.

[aadu]

Seems Pretty damn good to me! That seems to be amazing damage and if I'm reading this right you would retain benefits from consistent buffs like those from gear (handwraps).

[Cellion]

Its very good damage at 9th through 11th levels in particular, since most weapon-users still don't have their greater striking runes. Unfortunately, while handwraps do help with attack rolls, any striking runes you put on them are wasted since they aren't applying a status or circumstance bonus to your damage.

[prototype00]

I’m glad to see one of my favourite concepts prosper. I’ll have more to weigh in on the subject when I get my book tomorrow, of course but a couple of questions, apologies for ignorance:

1. Can you Druid multi into monk for this or is it not possible due to flurry requirements?

2. How does it scale vs non multi monk past level 12?

[Atalius]

prototype00 wrote:

I’m glad to see one of my favourite concepts prosper. I’ll have more to weigh in on the subject when I get my book tomorrow, of course but a couple of questions, apologies for ignorance:

1. Can you Druid multi into monk for this or is it not possible due to flurry requirements?

2. How does it scale vs non multi monk past level 12?

Monktopus?

[prototype00]

Atalius wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

I’m glad to see one of my favourite concepts prosper. I’ll have more to weigh in on the subject when I get my book tomorrow, of course but a couple of questions, apologies for ignorance:

1. Can you Druid multi into monk for this or is it not possible due to flurry requirements?

2. How does it scale vs non multi monk past level 12?

Monktopus?

Way of the Angry Bear was what I claim responsibility for, lol.

[Atalius]

prototype00 wrote:

Atalius wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

I’m glad to see one of my favourite concepts prosper. I’ll have more to weigh in on the subject when I get my book tomorrow, of course but a couple of questions, apologies for ignorance:

1. Can you Druid multi into monk for this or is it not possible due to flurry requirements?

2. How does it scale vs non multi monk past level 12?

Monktopus?

Way of the Angry Bear was what I claim responsibility for, lol.

Ahh yes, I remember reading that brilliant piece of literature. Can't wait for your next masterpiece.

[aadu]

prototype00 wrote:

I’m glad to see one of my favourite concepts prosper. I’ll have more to weigh in on the subject when I get my book tomorrow, of course but a couple of questions, apologies for ignorance:

1. Can you Druid multi into monk for this or is it not possible due to flurry requirements?

2. How does it scale vs non multi monk past level 12?

Been wanting to do this for a while in 5e but wizards really gimped the multiclass. This should work fairly well as Monk/Druid or Druid/Monk.

Monk main will get you better out of combat melee prowess while main druid will get you better shapes earlier and a higher peak for power in wild shape and tons of spells.