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So, I have a concept for a vivisectionist alchemist who uses shatter defenses to use sneak attack. Another part of his concept is combining spontaneous healing with the fast healer feat. The latter part requires four feats (Including toughness.), and shatter defenses is three feats. Is there a particular order I should go for regarding these feats? I feel like bee lining for fast healer first leaves me witout offense for a long time.
The earliest you can take shatter defences (+6 BAB) is 9th level. You have 5 feats at this point but humans can get a general bonus feat, or half-orcs can get endurance as a bonus feat for 6 total either way. Toughness is not in fact required for either feat line so you can make a beeline for both, simultaneously.
Edit: for early smackdown take the feral mutagen discovery. 3 attacks with possible sneak attack on each is enough to engender respect at low-mid levels.
If you're willing to dip: 1 level of UNBREAKABLE FIGHTER gets Endurance and Diehard in place of the usual bonus feat. Going Human would let you take Fast Healer and Weapon Focus at level 1, then Dazzling Display at level 3. Your level 5 and 7 feats could go anything you like (Power Attack maybe?), and your level 9 feat is Shatter Defences.
You can of course rearrange most of these feats however you see fit, and you could delay your dip to whenever you like as well (If you take the dip at an odd level then you can get Fast Healer at the same level you get the prerequisites).
Another part of his concept is combining spontaneous healing with the fast healer feat.
This combo does not actually work. Fast Healer only works with HP recovered from resting or from magical healing. The Spontaneous Healing ability isn't resting, and it's an EX ability and thus it isn't magical either. Therefor it does not trigger the feat.
This combo does not actually work. Fast Healer only works with HP recovered from resting or from magical healing. The Spontaneous Healing ability isn't resting, and it's an EX ability and thus it isn't magical either. Therefor it does not trigger the feat.
I think Dasrak is right.
Even if you can do this, it's not very good. You spend 3 feats and with it you get +1hp every time you heal. With Spontaneous healing that's +5hp over the course of a day.
(If you get your CON to 18 it's +2 per heal for +10hp per day).
I think you'd be better off saving the feats. If you really want to spend some feats on these things drop Fast Healer and instead take STALWART (and maybe Combat expertise). This will save you WAY more hp over the course of the day even if it's only a few at a time. It also has the same prerequisites as Fast Healer.
Alternatively ignore the Endurance feat-chain altogether and simply take the "Healing Touch" discovery to double your daily healing from Spontaneous Healing.
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This combo does not actually work. Fast Healer only works with HP recovered from resting or from magical healing. The Spontaneous Healing ability isn't resting, and it's an EX ability and thus it isn't magical either. Therefor it does not trigger the feat.I think Dasrak is right.
Even if you can do this, it's not very good. You spend 3 feats and with it you get +1hp every time you heal. With Spontaneous healing that's +5hp over the course of a day.
(If you get your CON to 18 it's +2 per heal for +10hp per day).I think you'd be better off saving the feats. If you really want to spend some feats on these things drop Fast Healer and instead take STALWART (and maybe Combat expertise). This will save you WAY more hp over the course of the day even if it's only a few at a time. It also has the same prerequisites as Fast Healer.
Alternatively ignore the Endurance feat-chain altogether and simply take the "Healing Touch" discovery to double your daily healing from Spontaneous Healing.
The fast healer combo does technically work, as spontaneous healing works "As fast healing" and fast healing works "Just like natural healing." so I would interpret that as applying to the discovery. My intention would be to temporarily boost Con with enhancement bonuses and bonuses from mutagen, so later levels it could get as high as 26 for a +9 heal per use.
More the issue is if I should spring for it at lower levels, or simply wait until higher levels for it, where the effect is more noticeable, and focus on offense earlier on.
Even if it works, and that's a pretty big "if", it's crap. Three feats is a rather high price to pay, and the effect is very small. Spontaneous Healign is an OK discovery for a non-bomb Alchemist, but not anywhere near good enough to spend three feats to increase the healing by about half on.
What level are you playing to? What do you consider "Later Levels"?
If you're going to level 10 then you'll only get 5 uses of Spontaneous Healing per day, which means that +4hp per heal is only getting you 20hp/day ... for 3 feats. That's with 26 CON at level 10. (I'm sure it'll add more if you use wands, but if you're using wands you're presumably not in combat so it's just saving you a little money.)
P.S. If it's something you want to do, then go nuts, sounds fun. You don't have to listen to a nosey stranger on the internet. I'm just not seeing it =P
So, I have a concept for a vivisectionist alchemist who uses shatter defenses to use sneak attack. Another part of his concept is combining spontaneous healing with the fast healer feat. The latter part requires four feats (Including toughness.)
That is....a really complicated way to build a sneak-attack martial (arguably sub-optimal to a standard halfling TWF uRogue with a dex-rage multiclass and a defensive fighting trait/feat emphasis to dial down in-bound damage; at least he'll be doing respectable weapon damage without sneak-attack gravy).
That is....a really complicated way to build a sneak-attack martial (arguably sub-optimal to a standard halfling TWF uRogue with a dex-rage multiclass and a defensive fighting trait/feat emphasis to dial down in-bound damage; at least he'll be doing respectable weapon damage without sneak-attack gravy).
I'd say a Beastmorph Vivisectionist can waste just about every feat and still come out miles ahead of any Rogue, both in and out of combat.
That is....a really complicated way to build a sneak-attack martial (arguably sub-optimal to a standard halfling TWF uRogue with a dex-rage multiclass and a defensive fighting trait/feat emphasis to dial down in-bound damage; at least he'll be doing respectable weapon damage without sneak-attack gravy).I'd say a Beastmorph Vivisectionist can waste just about every feat and still come out miles ahead of any Rogue, both in and out of combat.
The capability of the class isn't the issue, but the player's desire for front-line melee. --It's fairly easy to build a halfling uRogue/dex-rager that the bad guys need high confirmed crits to hurt. If I want sneak-attack in a martial role on a slow-fort-save chassis, I'll take not getting hit over having forty strength every time.
Er, Alchemist doesn't have a "slow-fort-save chassis". Not that an Alchemist has a problem with getting high AC or anything...
Well, there's high, and then there's ridonculously high. You could knock a half-dozen off this cat's AC (e.g., the silly potion expenses, and the unnecessary Defending enhancement), and a goodly chunk of CR-appropriates would still need back-to-back 20s to hit him.
Mind you, that offensive defence on an unchained rogue is still illegal.
Mind you, that offensive defence on an unchained rogue is still illegal.
We've had this conversation before; it can be done with some minor contortion.