@temperans
Yeah, why not picking Fireball and Lightning Bolt...
I think is hard to argue with that, all your arguments are things that obviously we have in mind (melee for a weak character, lack of slots) and still find it worth it. Not overly strong, but definitely worth it.
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You mean, the basic attacks of a non-martial class are not as good as the basic attacks of the dedicated damage-dealers? Next you tell me it gets dark at night... :p
Or more to the point: You have offered no justification whatsoever for why they should be in the first place.
I actually, factually, in the sentence you are responding to, said the phrase "I don't think they need to rival the damage a fighter does". I don't want wizard cantrips to hit like a broadsword, I just also would like to feel like I'm participating!
Because you come off as someone who sulks because he does not get to end all encounters, every day, with his awesome spell power.
Oh, look. Words I have literally never said.
Can't you accept that other classes can end encounters with THEIR class features too?
I just said other classes can do things while wizards cast spells. Characters can all have cool abilities. Are even reading what I'm saying?
And that no, the Wizard is not required to 'carry' the party through the day with their spells.
Oh, look. More words I have literally never said.
Casters have abilities outside of spells! Good ones! Effective ones! Utility ones! You are pretending that casters just don't have abilities or powers once out of spell slots when they all do.
There, fixed that for you. :p
DO THEY NOW? Let's you an I take a quick peak into wizard feats.
COUNTERSPEL: Requires a prepared spell slot.
ESCHEW MATERIALS: Augments a prepared spell slot.
FAMILIAR: Found one!
HAND OF THE APPRENTICE: This one let's you hit someone with your stick once an encounter.
REACH SPELL: Augments a prepared spell slot.
WIDEN SPELL: Augments a prepared spell slot.
CANTRIP EXPANSION: More bad cantrips.
CONCEAL SPELL: Augments a prepared spell slot.
ENHANCED FAMILIAR: Improves the familiar, possibly the only non-spell focused archetype enabled for wizards, and it specifically avoids spells.
BESPELL WEAPON: This one let's you hit someone with your FLAMING stick once an encounter.
LINKED FOCUS: This one let's you regain some focus, so that you can continue not having much to do with it.
SILENT SPELL: Augments a prepared spell slot.
SPELL PENETRATION: Augments a prepared spell slot.
STEADY SPELLCASTING: Augments a prepared spell slot.
Wow, by level 6 I can have a familiar or I can hit people with a magic stick, if I refuse to take any other class feats, but at least I can do SOMETHING when all my slots are gone. Much fun.
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Oh and lets not forget the huge joke that a Fighter at high level can get Invisibility and Fly multiple times a day by spending just 4-5 feats on Wizard multiclassing and they keep their great attack. Reaching Master and 8th level casting (level 15 ability).
*Ahem* Just for the record:
2 is more then 1, true, so I suppose that counts as 'multiple', even if it is just a tad disingenuous to put it that way.
And Master Spellcasting is not available before lv. 18, and you don't get an 8th lev. spell slot before lv. 20.
And you need to be 12th level for a 4th level spell slot. And 16th level before getting a second one.
So, 'multiple' uses of Fly and Invisibility (worth a damn) starting at lv. 16, when Wizards got the privilege at lv. 7 for free.
You have a strange sense of humour...
@Donovan; he is inferring not paraphrasing
@Temperans (Max 96 plus 12 from Force Bolt) Just clarifying the numbers, I know you don't agree. Its fine
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The fact that wizard feats interact with spells is very much the point of the class. But many of them do interact well with cantrips as well as spell slots and give you more spell slots than other casters.
Wizard is the wrong class for anyone who is more interested in all day class features than casting spells.
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The fact that wizard feats interact with spells is very much the point of the class. But many of them do interact well with cantrips as well as spell slots and give you more spell slots than other casters.
Wizard is the wrong class for anyone who is more interested in all day class features than casting spells.
I want to focus on spells, I like spells. I also like having feats that interact with my spells, and I like spells being a limited resource.
With all that said, if your entire class is based around the limited resource of spells, those spells need to be worth it to cast.
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I actually, factually, in the sentence you are responding to, said the phrase "I don't think they need to rival the damage a fighter does". I don't want wizard cantrips to hit like a broadsword, I just also would like to feel like I'm participating!
Then where is your threshold for 'I am participating'?
Because if it is between where casters are now and 'I don't need to rival Fighters', there is only a small band to aim for. Care to specify?
Because you come off as someone who sulks because he does not get to end all encounters, every day, with his awesome spell power.Oh, look. Words I have literally never said.
Didn't need to, managed to telegraph your feelings just fine.
Casters have abilities outside of spells! Good ones! Effective ones! Utility ones! You are pretending that casters just don't have abilities or powers once out of spell slots when they all do.
There, fixed that for you. :p
DO THEY NOW? Let's you an I take a quick peak into wizard feats.
*snip*
Okay, now you are just being wilfully obtuse. :(
All these things, Wizards have for themselves, and ONLY for themselves.
But the things you accuse martials of having outside of 'hit things with other things' are things EVERY class has, INCLUDING Wizards. And what's sauce for the goose...
You can't have it both ways. Either spell slots come at a premium, and every ability outside of spells is worthless, then non-casters have no ability worth a damn whatsoever, because according to you, dealing damage is worthless. OR, dealing damage and skills are worthwhile abilities and casters are JUST AS GOOD at skills then everybody but the Rogue, and not being as good at damage as the striker classes is the price you pay for having spells.
Which one is it.
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Okay, now you are just being wilfully obtuse. :(
All these things, Wizards have for themselves, and ONLY for themselves.
But the things you accuse martials of having outside of 'hit things with other things' are things EVERY class has, INCLUDING Wizards. And what's sauce for the goose...
I don't know what you arn't understanding about this, but other classes have feats that wizards can't have. These feats are good, some of them even mimic the effects of spells, and most can be done an infinite number of times per day.
Martial classes have abilities, they have utility, and it's utility that wizards don't have access to. Wizards don't just own all of the utility in the game, and you can't just keep saying "Wizards have utility so they don't get to be decent at combat."
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Lets all assume that the people continuing this conversation are trying to help figure out how players can have more fun playing wizards.
For some people, the accuracy of spell attack roll spells seems to be a major sticking point for the effectiveness of this class.
The good news for these people is that those spells have ways to be improved,
and they are not really necessary for anyone to play a wizard, or even an exclusive blaster wizard.
Might we see some future mechanic improving that accuracy futher? Possibly, but the fact that there are existing ways to significantly boost those spells, and those spells happen to have some of the highest damage potential in the game, means it is a good idea not to get too focused on seeing any kind of major bonuses being handed out for these spells, especially not ones that are always active and easy to get a hold of.
What other issues are worth continuing to ask?
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Because if it is between where casters are now and 'I don't need to rival Fighters', there is only a small band to aim for. Care to specify?
Cantrips high as the secondary Meless expending 2 actions. He said something like that
@Unicore; Thanks for being the voice of reason
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I'd just like to point out that these "white room" math calculations very often seem to ignore that Wizards get to consistently do good damage at RANGED intervals, whereas fighters have a "limited resource" in that they tend to get hit a lot more often if they're in melee range and just double slicing, for example.
In reality, Wizards are very strong right now IMO. all classes seem to be other than mutagenist.
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In reality, Wizards are very strong right now IMO. all classes seem to be other than mutagenist.
Agree, thats the only class I would dare to call weak
I'd just like to point out that these "white room" math calculations very often seem to ignore that Wizards get to consistently do good damage at RANGED intervals, whereas fighters have a "limited resource" in that they tend to get hit a lot more often if they're in melee range and just double slicing, for example.
In reality, Wizards are very strong right now IMO. all classes seem to be other than mutagenist.
There's a lot of DPR calcs out there where the martials grab bows too. I think Cantrip being about as good as 1 single-action ranged attack from martial TOPS (Not even fighter, but like Ranger/barb?) would be ok. They cost 2 actions but it'll even out if you're spending slots on blasts. Plus martials won't be attacking 2x every time either.
EDIT: Also, nobody is arguing that Wizard should be able to do other things besides spells, they're fine being spell-only! This does mean that their fun ends with their slots, though. And for Evokers, it ends with their max level slots + second to max level ones.
How about we build a blasting focused Evocation Wizard spell list at 7? I think we can all agree that the one Temperans posted was made to show that it's not simple rather than suggesting a real build:
1st - True Strike x3, Magic Missile.
2nd - Invisibility x3. Hydraulic Push.
3rd - Shocking Grasp x4.
4th - Fly x2. Shocking Grasp.
I think Fly and Invisibility(4) are great spells, but they don't belong at the top of our blasting focused list. Those spells will be great when we get to level 11 and they aren't in our biggest output slots; I think that's the point Temperans was trying to make anyway.
First, I'd concentrate on the top slot. If at all possible, we'll want a blasting spell targeting each defense we have access to here in order to target the weak save for maximum damage. Since we want to do damage, Phantasmal Killer is clearly our choice for our will save spell. We don't have a good one that targets Fort and we only have 3 slots anyway. For one that targets Reflex, we have a host of options. I'd go for Fireball in this slot since it has the capacity to wreck and entire fight. Next we have a spell targeting AC. I like Acid Arrow, personally, so I'll choose that one. To support Acid Arrow, you need 2 true strikes in case you want to use your bonded item to cast it twice, so we need to prepare 2 true strikes in our spell slots or have access to a staff of divination. If we wanted to do Shocking Grasp instead, we'd have to make room for a spectral hand on our list for the flexibility that offers.
For the next level down, I'd also focus on output in order to really fulfill our damage role. Single target reflex is the one we ignored at 4, so I'd probably go for Flaming Sphere as one of our 3rd level slots. Level 3 is a good one for heightened magic missiles, so I'd probably go for 1 of those here. Another option is to buy a wand of manifold missiles to fill in for our magic missile duty versus any enemy that doesn't have a weak save or is just too elite to care. Our focus spell helps us fill in here as well. I'd grab another AOE here; lightning bolt seems good. For our last level 3 slot, I'd grab a fort targetting debuff since we don't have access to a blast to target fort. Slow is a really good one at level 3.
At level 2, we have a lot of room to do whatever we want now that our blasting duties are fulfilled. I'd pick up a couple defensive slots for combat here to discourage enemies from targeting us. Mirror Image wrecks bosses with their low number of attacks, so I'd pick up one of those. For fights with more enemies, you'd want Blur instead, so pick up one of those. Glitterdust is a nice utility spell we can actually pick up with our evocation slot; evocation really shows it's weakness with the slot we have to use on lower level spells when there isn't a nice utility spell like Glitterdust to pick up. Telekinetic Maneuver is another nice one that we could have gone for. For our last level 2 slot, I'd go ahead and pick up some utility. Spider Climb gets us over some challenges, and it fills in for fly at this level to enable our melees to engage some more enemies.
At level 1, we have 2 true strikes prepared already; we can use one of those on a cantrip if we don't Acid Arrow twice. For our Evocation slot, I'd go with Gust of Wind to help out with flying enemies or Hydraulic Push to push things off ledges opportunistically. We'll just take both.
That leaves this spell list:
1st - True Strike x2, Gust of Wind, Hydraulic Push.
2nd - Glitterdust, Spider Climb, Blur, Mirror Image.
3rd - Flaming Sphere, Magic Missile, Slow, Lightning Bolt.
4th - Phantasmal Killer, Acid Arrow, Fireball.
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Martials do have ranged attacks, and most of them do similar amount of damage to melee attacks. Of course its not d10s or d12s, but the values do run from d4s to d8s consintently.
Cantrips still tend to average about half of ranged martial attacks. Which also tend to move less similar to ranged casters; But ranged msrtial attacks are more likely to get extra or more accurate (smaller MAP) attacks.
Not accounting for accuracy, because I don't have enough time at the moment to account for that, a level 5 fighter will deal an average of 16 points of damage over two attacks with a striking composite shortbow and a +2/+3 strength. A level 5 wizard will deal an average of 14.5 damage with Telekinetic Projectile. So only 1.5 points less and the wizard doesn't have to invest in two stats.
Cantrips seem on par with ranged weapons to me.
Yes thats my point Queaux, you cant just go spouting out potential spells because a blasting Wizard focusing on single target has vastly different needs. One of those needs, in my opinion, happens to be hitting better to compensate the fact AoE spell targetting saves are vastly better (if only for the effect on failure).
@Salamileg
You do realize that you are comparing a 1 action 60 ft range 1d6 weapon (average for a ranged weapon) vs a 2 action 30 ft range 1d6 weapon (high damage for cantrip). Aka this two are about equal on two attacks looking at only damage. But you and I are ignoring the to hit, which makes it much more in favor of the martial weapon due to getting up to a +3 (ignoring which class is using it).
Ignoring the fact that level 5 is possibly the best spot for fighter in comparisons, we have +16 to hit from fighter (4 dex, 5 level, 6 proficiency, 1 weapon), 2d6+1 damage. Wizard has +11 (4 int, 5 level, 2 proficiency), 3d6+4 damage.
All calculations will be made against moderate AC level 5, or 21 AC.Fighter: 10.45 on first shot, 5.045 on second shot for average of 15.525.
Fighter Double Shot: 8.3 on both shots, average of 16.6.
Wizard: 10.33 on telekinetic projectile.
I seem to see them doing equivalent damage to the fighter's first attack with a cantrip.
That shows me a 2 action cantrip is less than a 1 action attack by a fighter.
Or that a 2 action cantrip is less than 2 1 action attacks by any other martial.
This is probably okay for a cantrip, of all things.
But are those calculations considering the crit chance and crit damage? That's where that +16 Shortbow is gonna shine.
Yes thats my point Queaux, you cant just go spouting out potential spells because a blasting Wizard focusing on single target has vastly different needs. One of those needs, in my opinion, happens to be hitting better to compensate the fact AoE spell targetting saves are vastly better (if only for the effect on failure).
@Salamileg
You do realize that you are comparing a 1 action 60 ft range 1d6 weapon (average for a ranged weapon) vs a 2 action 30 ft range 1d6 weapon (high damage for cantrip). Aka this two are about equal on two attacks looking at only damage. But you and I are ignoring the to hit, which makes it much more in favor of the martial weapon due to getting up to a +3 (ignoring which class is using it).Ignoring the fact that level 5 is possibly the best spot for fighter in comparisons, we have +16 to hit from fighter (4 dex, 5 level, 6 proficiency, 1 weapon), 2d6+1 damage. Wizard has +11 (4 int, 5 level, 2 proficiency), 3d6+4 damage.
All calculations will be made against moderate AC level 5, or 21 AC.Fighter: 10.45 on first shot, 5.045 on second shot for average of 15.525.
Fighter Double Shot: 8.3 on both shots, average of 16.6.
Wizard: 10.33 on telekinetic projectile.I seem to see them doing equivalent damage to the fighter's first attack with a cantrip.
If you look at Electric Arc versus 2 targets, the situation gets a lot better. Moderate Save at 5 is +12 versus the 21 DC of the caster at level 5. That means a 9 is a success. That makes 1 die result a crit fail, 7 results a fail, and 10 a success. That means damage per creature is multiplied by (2*1/20 + 1*7/20 + 1/2*10/20) = .70. Average damage of 3d4 + 4 is 11.5 on the dice. Multiply by 0.7 for 8.05 per target. If you have 2 targets, you do 16.1 ,0.5 less damage than the fighter, overall.
That's in a wizard proficiency valley. The numbers actually get better for the wizard versus tougher opponents because the Save and AC scale the same near that level and the wizard loses less because of his results on successful saves and his less dependence on crits.
Ranged Martials are very good characters and PF2 did not nerf them nearly as hard as people have accused it of. But it does take specialization to be a martial and be top tier with ranged weapons. Composite Longbows are not weapons most martial characters will benefit from because that Volley trait is brutal. A fighter with point blank range isn't better off with a longbow that a short bow before they get a +2 weapon.
Yes switch hitting is a thing, but keeping up 2 or more striking weapons is incredibly expensive. And lastly, The ranged martial is trouble when the enemy takes cover and has a high AC. The blaster just targets the character's saving throws (one reason why Daze is a great cantrip choice for all casters, its the only one that targets will).
So using your two or three times a day, would you be fine with fighters only being able to double strike four to six times a day and then needing to using single attack actions and other abilities (utilities and cantrips) for the rest of the day?In this scenario, do the fighters get to fly and turn invisible?
Fighters can if they bought potions...
So yes Fighters have access to utility through consumables much like wizards are supposed to have access to the right spells though buying them and wizards are supposed to broaden the number of spells they have through spending on scrolls and wands and staves. I would add that fighters or any martial class can for a couple of wizard dedication feats (not even many) get access to buffs. Hell for 5 class feats I can prepare half the number of buff spells as a wizard up to level 8 with master proficiency while still being one of the highest damage dealers and having heavy armour and amazing weapon proficiency. There in lies a problem.
Sorry I am really sick of the utility argument when potions and magic items exist that can do many of those things.
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I think this is especially punishing for an Evoker or blaster caster, because attack spells are not good if they are not targeting weak saves, weaknesses and bypassing resistances.
And therein in your own words lies the problem. If the stars all align the blaster wizard can be good. Most other classes do not have this as a core feature of their design.
So its highly dependent on circumstances that a wizard can be good which isn't a good trade off. 1 per 10 encounters might feel great for your group but has been a terrible experience for the group I run.
In the situations you describe, I think a Buff/debuff caster has a massive advantage and the issues that you are bringing up make perfect sense. They are also not the only situations that players will find themselves in and I think Wizards probably do get better and better the more they are able to focus in on the larger objective of an extended campaign.
And this is where a lot of the problem lies with comments like 'but I see wizards as support or wizards are good because I like playing support diviners.' That does help people who decided to play a wizard for firepower. To be honest if I wanted to play a support caster I would have played a bard or cleric, as would my players.
Right now there is little in the way of feat or item support for the fire power wizard fantasy. People who want to play firepower don't have the spell slots to prepare all the utility spells. Sure they can get consumables to do that but so can others in the form or potions skills and Trick Magic Item so these aren't really good balance points to make.
Being balanced around True Strike is terrible. I am all for nerfing True Strike to just ignore concealment etc and remove the extra roll so wizards can get item or feat support. Right now True Strike feels almost mandatory and that is a terrible design corner to be painted into.
Maybe rather than saying wizards are fine because they work for the fantasy that you like playing, it might be more constructive to look at the fantasies that aren't well supported and understand the gaps people are feeling.
Being balanced around True Strike is terrible.
My players and I love the new True Strike :3
The Wizard could have more feat support for those who only want to do damage.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Wizard could have more feat support for those who only want to do damage.
Have any suggestions on how that might be accomplished without breaking game balance?
Honestly, while I do think the wizard as a whole is weaker than other casters, I think it's purely because many of the school focus spells are lacklustre. For example, I'm playing with an abjuration wizard right now, and she's doing great when compared to the martial characters and other casters I've played with. If all of the wizard's focus spells were as good as abjuration's, the wizard would be in a perfectly fine spot.
I also think blasting is a perfectly viable playstyle, but the wizard doesn't offer that at the moment. For that you're better off looking at sorcerer, druid, or cleric in some campaigns. I think the evocation wizard's school spell should have been either a powerful, flashy blast akin to the storm druid's or something that gave a temporary buff to evocations akin to the elemental sorcerer's blood magic.
Also, +X focuses might be a good idea, still on the fence about that myself.
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Being balanced around True Strike is terrible. I am all for nerfing True Strike to just ignore concealment etc and remove the extra roll so wizards can get item or feat support. Right now True Strike feels almost mandatory and that is a terrible design corner to be painted into.
Maybe rather than saying wizards are fine because they work for the fantasy that you like playing, it might be more constructive to look at the fantasies that aren't well supported and understand the gaps people are feeling.
Do you think a 7th level caster with the following list will be an ineffective damage dealer?
Cantrip - Electric Arc, Shield, TK Projectile
1st - True Strike x2, Gust of Wind, Hydraulic Push.
2nd - Glitterdust, Spider Climb, Blur, Mirror Image.
3rd - Flaming Sphere, Magic Missile, Slow, Lightning Bolt.
4th - Phantasmal Killer, Acid Arrow, Fireball
Martials and Skill Monkeys having abilities they can use 'all day long for infinity', while casters only have limited resources is one of the greatest lies in the history of D&D.
Why? Because that claim is *technically* true. Except, while a Fighter never runs out of sword, he can only 'cast sword' as many times a day as there are combat rounds (also, casters can do cantrips/orisions all day long for infinity, but whatever).
Please remember that iterative attacks are merely how martials were supposed to get scaling damage, because a +x (max +5) weapon does do jack for damage compared to getting +1d6 damage on damage spells every level for free. Yes, free. A PF 1 10th level fireball does 10d6 damage out of a 3rd level slot. Just *another* way casters were OP.
And how many combat rounds are there in a day? Well, seeing that everybody and their dog used '4 encounters per day' as their benchmark, we will go with that. And how many rounds are in a combat? 2-3 in rocket tag territory? Maybe 4-5 if we are stretching that, getting us to 20 rounds of combat in the D20 system. Let's use that, such a nice, round number.
So, does a martial type get to make 60 attacks per day? Of course not. Moving is a thing. Raising your shield is a thing. Many combat actions require two actions to perform, even if they may include multiple attack rolls. But again, more attacks is how martials scale their damage, as all they ever get is a +3 damage dice from runes and +8 static damage bonus from class features.
On top of that, outside of the lowest of levels 'casters can't cast all day long' was a dirty, rotten lie too, even without cantrips being at will. At 7th level, an INT 18 Wizard could cast 20 spells per day. Even if we take into account that daily boost spells like Mage Armour should not be counted against that number, the 'one spell per round of combat a day' thing would hold true from level 9 onward.
Sure, low-level spells only really matter for utility, and thus out-of-combat purposes, but that still...
And never forget the 5 Minute Work Day. The ultimate robbery of Gygax's intended spotlight ratio.
Personally I'd have changed the daily fire and forget spell system into a charge and fire big blast every few rounds at-will kind to both give magic its awe factor and a firm purpose for those non-Wuxia gritty martials, but oh well, the common complaint of No Spell Slots, No D20(censored) made me back away...
That shows me a 2 action cantrip is less than a 1 action attack by a fighter.
Or that a 2 action cantrip is less than 2 1 action attacks by any other martial.
This is probably okay for a cantrip, of all things.
But are those calculations considering the crit chance and crit damage? That's where that +16 Shortbow is gonna shine.
Yes, it is. The first attack gains a LOT out of that crit. (Just checking for exact numbers, 6.45 of the expected damage from the first attack is a result of the crit.)
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That shows me a 2 action cantrip is less than a 1 action attack by a fighter.
Or that a 2 action cantrip is less than 2 1 action attacks by any other martial.
It's a shame the wizard doesn't have spell slots while the fighter literally cannot do anything else.
And it's being compared at the worst possible time for the wizard.
By reading this thread sometime it feels like Wizard = Evoker and that's it...
Also I've read if you want to play a support caster play a Bard or Divine Caster, well in that case you want to be a blaster, Sorcerer especially Elemental will do the trick.
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Out of curiosity, I also decided to do the math for a level 3 acid arrow in the same situation. Unfortunately, there's no pure damage spell that would fit, so some adaptations had to be made. The standard calculations suggest that 2 rounds is a solid average time for persistent damage, so that's what I'm going with (~50% chance that it's extinguished after those two rounds).
Damage is 5d8 for 22.5 average, and persistent damage of 2d6 under the above notes averages at 14 damage.
With true strike/hero point, we average out at a 9.75% crit chance, 70% hit chance for 31.3 average damage.
Without either of those, we average out at 21.2 average damage.
The average without true strike is actually higher than I would have anticipated. Obviously you want that reroll, but it's still quite dangerous on a hit.
The Wizard could have more feat support for those who only want to do damage.Have any suggestions on how that might be accomplished without breaking game balance?
Maybe expend Spell slots to up the damage of the cantrips up to the damage of the second tier melees (Champion/Rogue/Ranger) So you can always do your blasty thingy. (Like adding some d6 or whatever)
I would not touch the spells though, they do fine on their own (Fireball, Flaming Sphere, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp are all awesome)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Out of curiosity, I also decided to do the math for a level 3 acid arrow in the same situation. Unfortunately, there's no pure damage spell that would fit, so some adaptations had to be made. The standard calculations suggest that 2 rounds is a solid average time for persistent damage, so that's what I'm going with (~50% chance that it's extinguished after those two rounds).
Damage is 5d8 for 22.5 average, and persistent damage of 2d6 under the above notes averages at 14 damage.With true strike/hero point, we average out at a 9.75% crit chance, 70% hit chance for 31.3 average damage.
Without either of those, we average out at 21.2 average damage.The average without true strike is actually higher than I would have anticipated. Obviously you want that reroll, but it's still quite dangerous on a hit.
Just a point of clarity. 2 is the median amount of turns for persistent damage. The average is just above 3 turns against any sort of tough/boss monster because of their durability allowing for additional ticks if the damage effect keeps persisting. It's also harder for the boss to remove the persistent damage because it's giving up more valuable actions to make the attempts. I would say your estimate is correct for the type of on level enemy you are describing, but the intended target of that sort of combination should be a Level+1 or Level+2 enemy if you can manage it.
Edit: bosses give up more valuable actions to try to remove persistent damage.
Out of curiosity, I also decided to do the math for a level 3 acid arrow in the same situation.
With true strike/hero point, we average out at a 9.75% crit chance, 70% hit chance for 31.3 average damage.
Without either of those, we average out at 21.2 average damage.
It has to be level 4, the Heightening of AArrow is +2. Either way, that is good damage I think. I love that the hero points are super available and you can use them on actual attacks/skills, instead of saving it for the Life saver (Of PF1)
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It has to be level 4, the Heightening of AArrow is +2. Either way, that is good damage I think. I love that the hero points are super available and you can use them on actual attacks/skills, instead of saving it for the Life saver (Of PF1)Out of curiosity, I also decided to do the math for a level 3 acid arrow in the same situation.
With true strike/hero point, we average out at a 9.75% crit chance, 70% hit chance for 31.3 average damage.
Without either of those, we average out at 21.2 average damage.
Bleh, you're right. Unfortunate, because there's literally no other ranged spell attack on the arcane list for a good while.
I'm actually going to test out another comparison I was curious about - vs a level 7 monster, AC 24.
Assuming level 2 acid arrow, then...averages 13.5 on hit, plus (thanks Queaux) 3 rounds of persistent for 10.5 damage. With true strike/hero point, wizard has a 54.25% chance to hit, 9.75% chance to crit. Fighter cannot double shot against the same target.
With reroll: 16.67625 average
Without reroll: 10.275 average
Fighter with shortbow: 6.425 first + 3.425 second = 9.85 average
At level 7 you get Aerial form as well, so you can fight in Melee if you want (I think 1-2 attack less than the rangers/champions). Man, all this talking down to the wizard has made me investigate it a lot, and now I want to play a Wizard...
Weirdly the same, except that I am left to running games. Some day, Marvelous the Mage, illusionist with zero personality and a pessimist who copes with enchantments and illusion, will have his time to shine.
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It has to be level 4, the Heightening of AArrow is +2. Either way, that is good damage I think. I love that the hero points are super available and you can use them on actual attacks/skills, instead of saving it for the Life saver (Of PF1)Out of curiosity, I also decided to do the math for a level 3 acid arrow in the same situation.
With true strike/hero point, we average out at a 9.75% crit chance, 70% hit chance for 31.3 average damage.
Without either of those, we average out at 21.2 average damage.
Bleh, you're right. Unfortunate, because there's literally no other ranged spell attack on the arcane list for a good while.
I'm actually going to test out another comparison I was curious about - vs a level 7 monster, AC 24.
Assuming level 2 acid arrow, then...averages 13.5 on hit, plus (thanks Queaux) 3 rounds of persistent for 10.5 damage. With true strike/hero point, wizard has a 54.25% chance to hit, 9.75% chance to crit. Fighter cannot double shot against the same target.With reroll: 16.67625 average
Without reroll: 10.275 average
Fighter with shortbow: 6.425 first + 3.425 second = 9.85 average
I do want to extend this example further. My case is level 7 characters fighting a boss; level 9 with high AC. The enemy AC will be 28.
A double slice fighter moves up and makes 2 attacks at +18. The first attack does 2d8+7 +1d6 persistent through wounding, 26.5. A crit only does slightly less than double at 51.5. The second attack does 2d6+7 assuming he is using the gloves to copy fundamental runes rather than paying for a full second weapon with a wounding property rune. A hit does 14. A crit does 28. Each attack has a 50% chance to hit and a 5% chance to crit. The full damage is (26.5*.5)+(51.5*.05)+(14*.5)+(28*.05)= 24.225 average.
A wizard has an attack bonus of +15 at level 7. A level 4 acid arrow does 5d8 + 2d6 persistent on a hit, 43.5. A crit does 10d8 + 2d6 persistent, 66. Without truestrike, there are 7 results that hit and 1 result that crits. You would deal (43.5*0.35)+(66*0.05)= 18.525 average. With true strike, there's a 39/400 chance you get a crit and a (37+35+33+31+29+27+25)/400 chance to hit. That leads to damage of (43.5*(217/400))+(66*39/400) = (23.60)+(6.435) = 30.03 average
The wizard does about 25% more single target damage than the best single target damage dealer in the game in this situation.
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And therein in your own words lies the problem. If the stars all align the blaster wizard can be good. Most other classes do not have this as a core feature of their design.So its highly dependent on circumstances that a wizard can be good which isn't a good trade off. 1 per 10 encounters might feel great for your group but has been a terrible experience for the group I run.
In the situations you describe, I think a Buff/debuff caster has a massive advantage and the issues that you are bringing up make perfect sense. They are also not the only situations that players will find themselves in and I think Wizards probably do get better and better the more they are able to focus in on the larger objective of an extended campaign.And this is where a lot of the problem lies with comments like 'but I see wizards as support or wizards are good because I like playing support diviners.' That does help people who decided to play a wizard for firepower. To be honest if I wanted to play a support caster I would have played a bard or cleric, as would my players.
Right now there is little in the way of feat or item support for the fire power wizard fantasy. People who want to play firepower don't have the spell slots to prepare all the utility spells. Sure they can get consumables to do that but so can others in the form or potions skills and Trick Magic Item so these aren't really good balance points to make.
Being balanced around True Strike is terrible. I am all for nerfing True Strike to just ignore concealment etc and remove the extra roll so wizards can get item or feat support. Right now True Strike feels almost mandatory and that is a terrible design corner to be painted into.
Maybe rather than saying wizards are fine because they work for the fantasy that...
Cyder, is your experience also focused around PFS?
It is possible that we have found a major point of contention between these two sides.
PFS wizards who want to blast run up against the problem of not getting to get a feel for the campaign and what kind of spells will be good to use in the upcoming adeventures.
That is a much more focused issue to resolve than wizards are generally terrible.
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In any case the True Strike shouldnt be required for Blasters any more than a Martial isn't required to use a specific feat.
Whatever you want man, let's say True Strike is mandatory, I personally don't have any problem with that, if it lets me surpass the best attacker in the game. Remember as well, that the wizard can do that combo at 120ft...
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It is okay and expected for wizards to spend money on consumables, but a martial characters doing so is bad? Am I misunderstanding something?
Queaux, the Acid Arrow without True Strike is ~76% of the martial's attack (18.525/24.225).
True Strike increases it to 124% (30.03/24.225) by expending an extra action and using up another spell.So if True Strike is going to be added than it should be compared to a ranged martial spending 3 action to attack.
In any case the True Strike shouldnt be required for Blasters any more than a Martial isnt required to use a specific feat.
Sure, the third fighter attack is a -8 so it hits 2/20 and crits 1/20. (14*.1)+(28*.05) = 2.8, bringing the total up to 27. I actually don't think that's the right comparison, though, since the fighter has to not move to get that in melee and the wizard can do his from 120 feet away ignoring concealment.
True Strike is probably a worse design than the caster spell attack accuracy buff could be, but you really should use it for spell attacks since it exists.
Okay, now you are just being wilfully obtuse. :(
All these things, Wizards have for themselves, and ONLY for themselves.
But the things you accuse martials of having outside of 'hit things with other things' are things EVERY class has, INCLUDING Wizards. And what's sauce for the goose...
I don't know what you arn't understanding about this, but other classes have feats that wizards can't have. These feats are good, some of them even mimic the effects of spells, and most can be done an infinite number of times per day.
Martial classes have abilities, they have utility, and it's utility that wizards don't have access to. Wizards don't just own all of the utility in the game, and you can't just keep saying "Wizards have utility so they don't get to be decent at combat."
We are talking about class feats here presumably?
All right, I'll bite. List 3.
I messed the list up. Vampiric Touch is actually quite a good Fort Save targetting blasting spell with the additional Temporary HP added, so you could take it in place of Slow at 3 for maximum damage dealing. You probably also want Spectral Hand at 2 if you do that. Since Vamp touch is mildly defensive, you can replace blur with it. Shocking Grasp is a lot more attractive with that swapping it out for acid arrow and swapping the levels of those spells gets you a maximum damage Fort Save option on your list. Acid Arrow, as shown, is obviously a good spell, but so is Shocking Grasp and Shocking Grasp is better on the odd level slots. There is some consideration into moving Flaming Sphere to 4th and Fireball down to 3 to have your 3 primary save targetting single target spells all at the top of your list. With a better single target focused outlay, I think the better AOE of Fireball over lightning bolt then makes sense. That makes the list look like this.
1st - True Strike x2, Gust of Wind, Hydraulic Push.
2nd - Glitterdust, Spider Climb, Spectral Hand, Mirror Image.
3rd - Fireballx2, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp
4th - Phantasmal Killer, Vampiric Touch, Flaming Sphere