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Here is a thread for your reactions to Avengers: Endgame after you have seen the movie.
For ease of discussion, I will declare in all of my non-authority that you do not need to spoiler tag posts about the movie in this thread.
If you do not want spoilers and or want protected discussion, please go to Baron's spoiler-free review thread or the old trailer discussion. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
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SPOILER
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QUESTIONS
1. If younger/still bad guy Nebula came back using her last Pym Particle, how did she bring Thanos Flagship to present day?
2. Does Loki have the Tesseract? He fled with it. Yaaay!
3. Did you guys get the Boromir feels as Thor wanted to take the Gauntlet when they had all the stones?
Also notice how Cap. had Mjolnir when he took the stones back? Otherwise what Hammer would Thor use during Ragnarök if our Thor took Mjolnir? Good part on show runners to think of that.
Captian America moment that puts the final scene in Endgame into perspective.
Captain America moment that makes the final scene a bit naughty.
Did you guys catch Joe Russo, Ken Jeong and Howard the Duck’s cameos?
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As for me, I thought it was overall very well made, especially considering all the moving pieces. At the same time, for me, I felt largely exhilarated through the movie, like an adrenaline rush, but with the euphoria off, I feel more just overwhelmed and relieved these 10 years of buildup are over.
I am still assembling my thoughts. But for now, to get the ball rolling --
The good overall was especially just how production wise, they managed so many characters and moving elements of the plot so deftly. This could have been giant clusterf%@& but it wasn't. I liked that most characters, especially the core Avengers got a lot of screentime. There were a lot of shout-out-loud moments of badassery (the audience's reaction when Cap picked up Mjollnir (I wasn't kidding about spoilers).... man). Of course the production values were excellent as expected, performances were excellent, soundtrack great. Iron Man's journey through the film was very well executed particularly, with a very sad but excellent send off with good closure.
Weirdly or not, I feel like the next MVP was Ant-Man, who had both a crucial role and a good story.
At the same time even though I know they edited the crap out of this, I felt like there was some fat could have been trimmed, and yet other scenes we should have seen. I could have seen less Thor, and would have liked to have seen Bruce or Tony see Natasha in the soul stone, the way Thanos did Gamora, especially since otherwise I felt her send off was utterly lacking to the point of disrespect for her character, especially when in the movie they seemed to be setting her up as the new leader, the glue who keeps everyone together and then--poof, gone. I know other opinions are different, but I personally feel like she had a lot of buildup with not enough payoff and no closure.
I also feel like Hulk's development felt too sudden and shoehorned, with not enough explanation or development. Though I enjoyed the role that he played.
I cheered, along with the rest of my local audience, to Captain Marvel whupping ass but of course she had very little character development because they actually hadn't begun filming her movie yet. That was a bit... awkward.
Cap I found the most disappointing by far. He felt like he has never grown or changed through any of his movie arcs, and his ending was deeply unsatisfying, and disrespectful to Peggy--a character who had prior to this escaped being the emotional-man-crutch role so many Marvel women used to be forced into via Agent Carter, only to be shoved right back into it, no agency at all for herself. But moreover it bothered me because Natasha died to keep her family together, and then Cap, from his point of view, then without a second thought just abandoned that same family, who have spent YEARS with him and bent over backwards for him, many of whom broke the law and went to F!@*ING prison FOR HIM, to go be with someone he knew for a month or so and kissed once. Bear in mind with the time jump, it has now been 12 years since he was thawed out--TWELVE YEARS to grow, change, improve, build new relationships). He is a worthless friend and the most pathetic human being in the Marvel universe. As written,he is such a f$&%ing useless awful worthless jerk of a wimp who has not one iota of gratitude in his body for the people who have spent most of his adulthood with him. No, it doesn't matter that for them, he was never gone. He decided for all they did for him, he never need to be with them for 70 years, he wouldn't miss them at all and didn't need them because he once knew a lady back in the 40s who had nice big titties. F+$* CAPTAIN AMERICA. </rant>
I also honestly thought Cap, who once I thought of, as of his first and second films only, a decent fellow who is willing to make sacrifices, was probably going to trade himself for Natasha's return when he went to return the soul stone. But I forgot he is now a terrible human being who doesn't care about or appreciate what other people do for him.
(I appreciate that many others surely feel differently and will argue, but please do not be surprised if I don't respond. I'm just throwing this stuff out there to get it out.)
If I could change my own history/memory (sadly impossible by the rules set forth by the movie) I'd forget the last five minutes of the movie. Can somebody use the mindstone to wipe my mind?
On a less bitter note about Captain America, I feel like there was 15 minutes more of movie we needed to see with him returning the stones. I'd like to know how that worked--especially since it was clearly so difficult to get them in the first place. AND HOW WERE WE DEPRIVED OF HIM SEEING THE RED SKULL AGAIN? WTF? Not fair, not fair at all.
Back to positive stuff: Even if I don't like how we got there, I love Falcon taking the new mantle of Cap. All of the time heist capers were great. Very tense, very interesting. When Nebula shorted out, I was like, "Oh nooo...." great tension. And damn, her story was good too. She's up there with Tony and Scott.
That final battle. Just everything was plotted perfectly. "On your left." All the people coming back. The theater was shouting "Yibambe!" along with the Wakandans. WANDA. That was nearly some House of M Wanda going on. And yes, the A-Force moment was hokey as F&!@ and it was still wonderful anyway, and everybody in the audience cheered. If you didn't like it, it was three seconds, so get over it, losers. (Yes, you can say the same thing to me about Captain America, feel free.)
AND OMG JARVIS! We finally had our first TV-only character show up in the movie! YES!!! And I am SO glad it was James D'Arcy. (If you don't know what I am talking about, James D'Arcy played Edwin Jarvis, Stark's butler, on Agent Carter. You see him with Howard in the 1970s scene.)
I also loved that the Pyms showed up to Tony's funeral. Hank hated Howard so much so it was a real show of growth that he was letting go of that grudge to memorialize "a Stark."
Lots of great stuff in this movie. Still, overall I mainly feel relieved. It's done. I can rest now. ((Don't take that too far.))
And even if you disagree with me on any of this, I still love you 3000.
SPOILER
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QUESTIONS
1. If younger/still bad guy Nebula came back using her last Pym Particle, how did she bring Thanos Flagship to present day?
That is a good question. Perhaps Thanos, with superior tech, was able to recreate more?
2. Does Loki have the Tesseract? He fled with it. Yaaay!
Possibly, in an alternate timeline that, per Banner's rules, would not affect "MCU-Prime" as it were. (You can't change your own history, you just create alternate universes by traveling through time and changing events.) Given there is a Loki series, I wonder if it will involve this.
Also notice how Cap. had Mjolnir when he took the stones back? Otherwise what Hammer would Thor use during Ragnarök if our Thor took Mjolnir? Good part on show runners to think of that.
Yes, although it actually makes some of the ramifications of what I just said above confusing. But Mjollnir is special and unique like the time stones so probably best to be on the safe side.
Did you guys catch Joe Russo, Ken Jeong and Howard the Duck’s cameos?
Also Yvette Nicole Brown. (Shirley from "Community.")
I missed Howard (heard about it later) but saw the others.
So to kick things off, what do folks think this means for Phase 4?
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So to kick things off, what do folks think this means for Phase 4?
Before we get to that let’s enjoy some Avengers Ice Cream!
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many perceptive comments, much wisdom
Yeah, I hated the resolution to Cap's arc. I know Peggy was his Great Love, but giving up on Bucky and all those Hydra hurt & killed just for a life with Peggy seems massively out of character or a massive flaw in his character. I could accept a short detour where he stopped off to have that one last dance with her, but a whole life where he sits on his hands and does nothing to stop Evil? I can't accept it. It breaks the very thing for which Dr. Erskine chose Rogers over all the other candidates. It breaks the reason we all fell in love with Cap in the MCU.
I hated Nat's resolution to her arc even more, but not for her choices. I totally believe she would sacrifice herself, not only in a final attempt to reconcile the red from her ledger, but because it was the right thing to do. She's still pragmatic and ruthless when need be, but she had worked hard for redemption. She busted her ass the keep the Avengers going when Hawkhole crawled up his own ass to become Killy von Manpain, and Stark just going "F!ck you, got mine." But the writers and Russos not looking/finding another way beyond having her die by the Endgame Soul Stone trial, especially after Thanos fridged Gamora for the Soul Stone in Infinity War? No. Worse, after her sacrifice, she doesn't even get a wreath or any kind of memorial at the end, even though without her sacrifice neither Banner nor Stark would have been able to bring back everyone or Snap Thanos & the gang. A quiet line exchanged between Hawkguy and Wanda doesn't f!cking cut it. At all.
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I feel like Hulka Hulka Burning Fudge should have some cayenne stirred into the fudge swirl.
So to kick things off, what do folks think this means for Phase 4?
I honestly have very little idea. I think they will issue a few more solo/new group films before we have another Avengers or Avengers-esque teamup. We know Spider-Man is up, and then GotG 3 (which appears based on what we last saw Starlord doing, will be "GotG: the Search for Gamora." Rumors have abounded about the Eternals, and Black Panther and Dr. Strange will also have sequels; so will Carol and her rad haircut, probably costarring adult Monica Rambeau. Eternals is widely rumored to be the next new big team, and as Josh Brolin has a 3-movie contract (or so I've heard), Thanos will probably appear there in a flashback.
Then there are the rumors about the Black Widow movie. Obviously with what happened and what was declared, the future for that is unclear. On one hand, it could always have been just rumors, or even false leaks to prevent spoilers (although I think that would have been a horribly cruel thing to do to Scarlett Johannson: "BTDubs, Scar, we're gonna spread rumors you're getting a solo film, but we're actually killing you off, so f&!* you, thanks for 9 years!). Interviews with the Avengers cast seem to suggest they also believe it is happening if you read between the lines, but repeat "it hasn't been announced yet" to avoid further comment (emphasis on "yet"). Many of course are speculating the most obvious possibility: it will be a prequel (which also matches some rumors). My issue with that is will people be invested in an origin story of a character we know is dead and will never come back? Especially while she has her rabid fans, there are also those who have never liked her (same could be said for many of the Avengers). It's still the easiest solution of course. Alternatives are the following -- when Thanos destroys the stones for good (remember that thing that happened way at the beginning of the movie?), all those in the Soulworld are released--but who knows where. It could be an odyssey of her trying to get home. (This could also be how Gamora returns.) Or they are doing something along the lines of the recent-ish "Tales of Suspense starring the Winter Soldier and Hawkeye" comic book where they are on the tail of a seeming imposter of Natasha (who was murdered by Hydra-Cap in Secret Empire). Then it turns out to be Natasha after all--rather, a clone of her who has all of her memories thanks to a psychic. The gist is a newer version of the Red Room keeps clones of its most capable agents and just boots up a new one when she gets killed. I think the clone option is unlikely, but if they do use it, Bridget Regan better f+%!ing be in the clone tank with Scarlett, or I am going to haunt Kevin Feige's nightmares for the rest of his life.
As to what great big crossover if any they build up to, I don't know, and likely to take a pass. This was just too exhausting for me to do all over again.
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That's awesome, and yet I got really distracted by the fact that the guy sitting next to him in the support group looks like Foggy Nelson.
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many perceptive comments, much wisdomYeah, I hated the resolution to Cap's arc. I know Peggy was his Great Love, but giving up on Bucky and all those Hydra hurt & killed just for a life with Peggy seems massively out of character or a massive flaw in his character. I could accept a short detour where he stopped off to have that one last dance with her, but a whole life where he sits on his hands and does nothing to stop Evil? I can't accept it. It breaks the very thing for which Dr. Erskine chose Rogers over all the other candidates. It breaks the reason we all fell in love with Cap in the MCU.
I hated Nat's resolution to her arc even more, but not for her choices. I totally believe she would sacrifice herself, not only in a final attempt to reconcile the red from her ledger, but because it was the right thing to do. She's still pragmatic and ruthless when need be, but she had worked hard for redemption. She busted her ass the keep the Avengers going when Hawkhole crawled up his own ass to become Killy von Manpain, and Stark just going "F!ck you, got mine." But the writers and Russos not looking/finding another way beyond having her die by the Endgame Soul Stone trial, especially after Thanos fridged Gamora for the Soul Stone in Infinity War?
According to an interview with Markus and McFeely in the New York Times, apparently the visual design engineer who was a lady-person told them she thought a version of the script with Hawkeye dying "took too much from Natasha" so that makes it okay. (It doesn't, and they're hiding behind the "but I have a friend who's a girl so it's not sexist" as an excuse.)
I think, as you say, it SHOULD have been about her needing redemption, but they made it about her wanting Hawkeye being with his family, because her continually being every male Avenger's emotional crutch is more important than her own needs, desires, or goals. (And that is what "fridging" means. When the death is about the survivors and not the person who died.)
On the other hand, given how much they emotionally relied upon her, boy are they f*%#ed without her.
No. Worse, after her sacrifice, she doesn't even get a wreath or any kind of memorial at the end, even though without her sacrifice neither Banner nor Stark would have been able to bring back everyone or Snap Thanos & the gang. A quiet line exchanged between Hawkguy and Wanda doesn't f!cking cut it. At all.
No. And I think that's why a lot of people are ticked off off. If she dies and it's a good story, fine. But there was not enough gratitude toward her or for her, not by a long shot.
In that same NYT interview, Markus and McFeely said something like well Stark gets a funeral because he's a famous person and Natasha doesn't because she's a spy and so people wouldn't know who she is. Which makes NO SENSE. Especially since every single person at Stark's funeral (which was obviously a tiny private service, not a large public memorial), except maybe the Pyms and Harley, would have shown up to Natasha's. Funerals aren't about the person who died, it's about the people who survive and want a chance to honor and remember the dead. Natasha not getting a proper funeral means no one cares enough to honor or remember her properly--certainly Markus and McFeely don't.
And I don't want Stark to have been denied his memorial moment--it was perfect for him and well deserved, especially since he started it all. Simply, Natasha, who has played a major role in the same number of movies as Stark, deserved more than she got.
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Some great answers from Joe Russo. Questions are translated from Chinese that’s why the syntax is a little off.
Thanks, Baron! That clears a few things up for me at least.
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I made a post elsewhere that I will paste here also.
I mostly enjoyed the movie, and it had a lot of "YES!" moments for me. I tend to like the solo films more than the group ones and this didn't change my mind. There were some things that bummed me out a little. A couple minor ones, and a couple more significant ones.
1. I wanted a lot more Captain Marvel. I didn't realize this when I went into the theater but I guess her scenes in this movie were filmed before the Captain Marvel movie and that is why she isn't in this too much.
2. It seems like maybe I interpreted this differently than other folks did, but I was really uncomfortable with the "guy is struggling to deal with PTSD and survivors guilt and as a result has gained weight. It's hilarious!" thing in Thor's arc. Maybe I interpreted it differently than intended.
3. Natasha doesn't get a funeral with everyone or anything like that? Not even a wreath floating out with Tony's? Come on, she's a tremendously important character in these movies and without her sacrifice none of this happens.
4. I liked that there were a lot of cameos from supporting characters in other movies and even Jarvis from Agent Carter. But ones I would have really liked to have seen didn't make the cut. It would have been neat to have the cast from Agents of Shield come through a portal and participate in the big fight, and given what heavy hitters Yo-Yo and Quake are would have made a lot of sense. But the biggest omission for me was Luis. When I heard the van horn I thought the camera was going to pan to the van speeding towards the battle, driven by Luis. But it was just a FOB activate horn =0(
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According to an interview with Markus and McFeely in the New York Times, apparently the visual design engineer who was a lady-person told them she thought a version of the script with Hawkeye dying "took too much from Natasha" so that makes it okay. (It doesn't, and they're hiding behind the "but I have a friend who's a girl so it's not sexist" as an excuse.)
I think, as you say, it SHOULD have been about her needing redemption, but they made it about her wanting Hawkeye being with his family, because her continually being every male Avenger's emotional crutch is more important than her own needs, desires, or goals. (And that is what "fridging" means. When the death is about the survivors and not the person who died.)
On the other hand, given how much they emotionally relied upon her, boy are they f++#ed without her.
And somehow the sacrificial calculus comes down to, "Well, Hawkeye has a family and Widow doesn't, so he should live." Which is more real world social bullsh!t from the male writers and directors about someone's worth being directly tied to whether they got hitched and had kids. I'm damn sure Nat was a damn good aunt, and helped instill good ethical values in her niece and nephews. Letting her live and helping Hawkeye's wife co-raise the kids would have helped soften the Whedon crap about her sterility by demonstrating to the viewers and Nat herself that she didn't need to have given birth to a child to be a good parent.
No. And I think that's why a lot of people are ticked off off. If she dies and it's a good story, fine. But there was not enough gratitude toward her or for her, not by a long shot.
In that same NYT interview, Markus and McFeely said something like well Stark gets a funeral because he's a famous person and Natasha doesn't because she's a spy and so people wouldn't know who she is. Which makes NO SENSE. Especially since every single person at Stark's funeral (which was obviously a tiny private service, not a large public memorial), except maybe the Pyms and Harley, would have shown up to Natasha's. Funerals aren't about the person who died, it's about the people who survive and want a chance to honor and remember the dead. Natasha not getting a proper funeral means no one cares enough to honor or remember her properly--certainly Markus and McFeely don't.
And I don't want Stark to have been denied his memorial moment--it was perfect for him and well deserved, especially since he started it all. Simply, Natasha, who has played a major role in the same number of movies as Stark, deserved more than she got.
This would have been a moment for the surviving members to step up and tell her story & sacrifices because she didn't seek the attention or glory. How many little girls in the MCU don't have her as a role model because she wasn't larger-than-life like Stark, Rogers, or Odinson? How many girls and boys in the MCU don't see her as capable and heroic as the others because she didn't have superpowers? She ran into the same dangers as the others as a unpowered human woman. In my book, that points to her as being more heroic.
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2. It seems like maybe I interpreted this differently than other folks did, but I was really uncomfortable with the "guy is struggling to deal with PTSD and survivors guilt and as a result has gained weight. It's hilarious!" thing in Thor's arc. Maybe I interpreted it differently than intended.
Yeah, this bugged me too. I think there were ways to humorously explore Thor's PTSD + guilt -> weight gain & lack of self-care without making him the punchline of fat jokes.
My thoughts:
1) Stark. Stark had a good long run. I feel his reactions when he got back to Earth were very realistic. I give it to RDJ for that. We jump five years up and he's had some time to heal (having a family can do that). What he did in the movie was overall excellent. His death was stately, even poignant.
2) Thor. Thor's the character I feel everyone's had problems writing. In Ragnarok, he finally started getting his act together. Then to start Infinity War, it fell apart, only for him to show us what he truly was capable of by the end. Then to start Endgame, he's reacting fairly normally. But after five years, he's turned into a joke. Given my love for the god of smiting, this just wouldn't do. Now, he's actually got some potential with the GotG, because Hemsworth's Thor is funny. But overall, this felt more like a move to make Thanos a viable threat (given in Infinity War Thor finally came to the battlefield and smote him good), not a move to explore his character.
3) Cap. The problem Cap had is his inability to let go of the past. I agree that he did act a bit out of character when he stayed in the past with Peggy, given he was leaving his old best bud and new best bud behind so to speak. To make up for it, he had moments like 'I'd offer to cook you dinner, but you look miserable enough as it is'. His 'Avengers...assemble' cry finally happened, giving him one of his epic moments. The other, of course, is wielding Mjolnir.
4) Hulk. His story started a few movies ago, but it really didn't go as I guessed. I figured we'd get a more articulate Hulk. Nothing wrong with the Professor, but the main issue here is that we saw the earlier stages of the evolution of the character. Here, it was offscreen. Not satisfying.
5) Hawkeye. His character evolved in a way one might expect. He's lost his family, which would drive anyone nuts. So he sets out to clean up the world, no matter how he does it. Then he gets them back and puts the Ronin back in the bottle. It's not a bad little arc, especially the Vormir part.
6) Thanos. He'd fought his war and gotten what he wanted. He was content. Then he was decapitated. So we roll him back to the 2014 version...who somehow put up more of a fight than his Gauntlet-empowered version? This version also seemed to be a bit less philosophical overall.
7) Nebula. She's developed over several movies. The original would never have put a blanket over a stranger. It will be interesting to see how she continues to grow and develop in another GotG movie.
8) Wanda. Full props for whooping Thanos almost into his grave herself.
9) Natasha. She stayed the course, trying to save the world then keep everything together. She tried to be Nick Fury in a post-Snap world. She sacrificed herself for the Soul Stone...and she got no memorial? Really?
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We have all these individual emotional scenes for the 'headliner' Avengers; Thor got his moment with his mother, Tony with his father, Steve with Peggy (regardless of my feelings about that), Hawkeye had his family dusting, Antman got a bunch of hard hitting exposition as he reenters from the Quantum zone, Hulk/Bruce even get a scene showing his two selves in balance taking a selfie with his adoring fans, and Natasha got... nothing. She sacrifices herself for the world universe and all we get for her emotional development is Nazi/Hydra Angel of Death guy knows her unknown father's name. This really disappointed me.
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Yeah, I did really feel like despite the big three headliners that Ant Man and Black Widow were the real lead protagonists of the movie. And I think Natasha got a really short stick all around. As someone up thread mentioned, she has brought up redeeming herself a lot and this was an almost too good chance to explore that.
But the biggest omission for me was Luis. When I heard the van horn I thought the camera was going to pan to the van speeding towards the battle, driven by Luis. But it was just a FOB activate horn =0(
I feel like the part where Spider-Man is kind of babbling to Tony about how the undusting happened and then Dr. Strange opened portals, etc, and he's doing the really fast talking, that's the kind of thing that would have been perfect for Luis, done 100% in the style he does it in the Antman movies. If they could work a heist narrative into the Endgame script, I know they could do a Luis monologue, even if it was as a post-credit scene (I could have used a good laugh after the three hour emotional rollercoaster).
I wasn't quite clear when I watched it in the theater, but how did we go from people getting undusted to having them all start showing up via the magic glowing portal circles? How did that entrance get coordinated? Did Strange warp the folks that were in space to a central location and then start gathering up people? Did I miss how that all worked or did they explain it?
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Littlediegito, you make a good point that they turn PTSD into a joke with Thor, which is at least rather insensitive. I think the initial shock--you show up, he's got a beer belly and is smelly--that's fine for a quick laugh. Then they made it go way too long. Thor was given a chance at a new purpose--no, you don't jump out of depression that quickly, but Thor is also over a thousand years old and probably knows how to cope better than that, and once given a new purpose would at least work hard to try to focus. They undid a lot of good work with him in Ragnarok and Infinity War, as Lathiira notes. On the other hand, I really loved his scene with Frigga. I also liked his denouement with Valkyrie (which was then undercut with unnecessary shenanigans with the Guardians). It's like Aquaman comes out, does well, and suddenly Marvel had to take their Bro superhero and make him the Broiest.
Hulk I feel like we needed more about the conflict with Banner and Hulk in Infinity War to lead up to Professor Hulk here.
Sara Marie, you taking note of her dad's name also creates a continuity issue--Natasha mentioned in Civil War she visited her parents' graves. So how could she not know her father's name? Moreover, she has a patronymic (Alianovna), meaning her father's name is Alian (not a very Slavic name from what I've read, but that doesn't matter [and yes, I've seen she's also sometimes been given the patronymic Ivanovna but both have been used in the comics and Alianovna was definitely used in the MCU]). I'd call this an issue between writers, but her patronymic was spoken in Winter Soldier and the story of her parents' graves was in Civil War. All directed by the Russos and written by Markus/McFeely. If it was that a different man was her father than she thought, that was not clear. It just more and more looks like they don't give a f%~*.
On a positive note--just reiterating Tony's story was great. Was what it should have been. I liked he could make peace with his father. Honestly Howard was a jerk, but you've gotta let go of that resentment sometimes, and was glad Tony could make peace. And I feel though we haven't gotten to see much of her, Pepper has grown for the better too, and I looooved seeing her as Rescue. And that little girl was utterly adorable. Would be really cool to see an Iron Legion movie with Rescue and War Machine and some new recruits (Riri Williams, maybe?).
Yeah, I did really feel like despite the big three headliners that Ant Man and Black Widow were the real lead protagonists of the movie. And I think Natasha got a really short stick all around. As someone up thread mentioned, she has brought up redeeming herself a lot and this was an almost too good chance to explore that.
It was also a wasted opportunity.
-- Having the Hulk sacrifice themselves would have worked better (IMHO).
-- Having Steve Rodgers stay in the present would have been smarter. It would also make him FAR less selfish (and thus worthy of lifting Mjolnir). The idea that (if in the past) he does NOTHING about the rebirth of HYDRA within SHIELD makes not sense. Fighting Hydra back in the later 40s/50s would have been a valid reason to go back, not for his personal happiness.
-- Speaking of his personal happiness, a Rodgers/Romanov ship would have made MUCH more sense at the end of Endgame given where the two characters are in their personal development. (Even if that does make Black Widow and extension of a male character -a fate of female characters common in most movies- it is not a useless waste of Scarlett Johansson.)
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But the biggest omission for me was Luis. When I heard the van horn I thought the camera was going to pan to the van speeding towards the battle, driven by Luis. But it was just a FOB activate horn =0(I feel like the part where Spider-Man is kind of babbling to Tony about how the undusting happened and then Dr. Strange opened portals, etc, and he's doing the really fast talking, that's the kind of thing that would have been perfect for Luis, done 100% in the style he does it in the Antman movies. If they could work a heist narrative into the Endgame script, I know they could do a Luis monologue, even if it was as a post-credit scene (I could have used a good laugh after the three hour emotional rollercoaster).
They should have filmed, prior to Endgame's release, a Luis recap of the prior 21 movies. It would have been AWESOME.
I wasn't quite clear when I watched it in the theater, but how did we go from people getting undusted to having them all start showing up via the magic glowing portal circles? How did that entrance get coordinated? Did Strange warp the folks that were in space to a central location and then start gathering up people? Did I miss how that all worked or did they explain it?
I believe in Infinity War, Strange knew the Avengers were headed to Wakanda to protect the Mind Stone. So after he, Spidey, and the Guardians wake up, they warp to the Sorcerer Hideout, collect Wong and the others, then they would all Warp to Wakanda, pick up all the Dusted Avengers and the Wakandans; Wakandan technology would be adequate to pick up the giant space fleet over Avengers HQ, so then all the sorcerers would Warp everyone to the Avengers HeadQuarters and whup ass.
No this is not explained but I believe my logic checks out.
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I really enjoyed the way Cap wielding Mjolnir worked out. We see it flying, think maybe Thor was controlling it, and, at least to me, Thanos and Thor experiencing on-screen the audiences anticipation and surprise seeing Captain America using it.
But I am curious, before that moment, does Cap know he can wield Mjolnir?
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It's like Aquaman comes out, does well, and suddenly Marvel had to take their Bro superhero and make him the Broiest.
Thor Brodinson
I really enjoyed the way Cap wielding Mjolnir worked out. We see it flying, think maybe Thor was controlling it, and, at least to me, Thanos and Thor experiencing on-screen the audiences anticipation and surprise seeing Captain America using it.
But I am curious, before that moment, does Cap know he can wield Mjolnir?
He nudged it in Age of Ultron. There's always been a possibility he realized at that point he could lift it, but didn't to let Thor save face.
I was completely hoping for Vision, caught up in the moment and forgetting he isn’t coming back without the stone.
I am still hoping Shuri can reboot him sans stone. But she was only just resurrected (I think she was shown among the dusted) so she wouldn't have had time before the big battle. I suspect a huge aspect of WandaVision will be Wanda re-teaching a Mind Stone-less Vision to be human.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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1. If younger/still bad guy Nebula came back using her last Pym Particle, how did she bring Thanos Flagship to present day?
There’s still one particle in the past—Natasha’s for her return trip.
Given that Thanos knows they were headed to Vormir, it’s possible that he recovered it (and another time/space GPS) from her body at the base of the cliff.
Having Steve Rodgers stay in the present would have been smarter. It would also make him FAR less selfish (and thus worthy of lifting Mjolnir). The idea that (if in the past) he does NOTHING about the rebirth of HYDRA within SHIELD makes not sense. Fighting Hydra back in the later 40s/50s would have been a valid reason to go back, not for his personal happiness.
According to the Russos, Cap goes to a different timeline to be with Peggy, before returning to the main branch to talk with Sam. I imagine that he and Peg do root out Hydra in that reality. Link
For what it's worth, given we are getting a black widow movie, I suspect that is the real underlying reason she didn't get a bigger send off. It's not really her last "moment" with the fans, versus Steven and Tony, who are truly done.
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Q: How did Thanos bring his army to the future?
A: There is a guy called Maw in his army, he was a great wizard. Thanos himself was a brilliant genius as well. Those two easily reverse engineered and mass produced Pym Particles.
lolz...literally "A Wizard did it"
That's awesome, and yet I got really distracted by the fact that the guy sitting next to him in the support group looks like Foggy Nelson.
Oh good I was not the only one...
It's like Aquaman comes out, does well, and suddenly Marvel had to take their Bro superhero and make him the Broiest.Thor Brodinson
"Well that's just your opinion man!"
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"Well that's just your opinion man!"It's like Aquaman comes out, does well, and suddenly Marvel had to take their Bro superhero and make him the Broiest.Thor Brodinson
No, it's my... bropinion.
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My thoughts:
3) Cap. The problem Cap had is his inability to let go of the past. I agree that he did act a bit out of character when he stayed in the past with Peggy, given he was leaving his old best bud and new best bud behind so to speak. To make up for it, he had moments like 'I'd offer to cook you dinner, but you look miserable enough as it is'. His 'Avengers...assemble' cry finally happened, giving him one of his epic moments. The other, of course, is wielding Mjolnir.
I think we can give Cap a pass here. He very much deserved it. I really liked his arc.
Go to the movie with expectations, and have those expectations ripped to girlie man shreds like Bruce Banner’s skinny jeans on Hulk’s worst time of the month. It’s been 11 long years since Robert Downey nailed it and truthfully uttered “I am Iron Man,” and we have had many heroes’ journeys since then, “Endgame” is that big of a payoff.
The main characters here, while heroic, are seen at their most human, weighing loss and life, in many ways mirroring their comic book page selves. They don’t stand apart from us, rather they are among the very best of us.
I really wish is was the Hulk that took out Thanos flagship.
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You are welcome to give Cap a pass, but please don't speak for "us."
According to the Russos, Cap goes to a different timeline to be with Peggy, before returning to the main branch to talk with Sam. I imagine that he and Peg do root out Hydra in that reality.
What he does in the alternate timeline may be resolved, but it doesn't justify the callousness and ingratitude he displays toward the other Avengers, people we thought were his friends and family. He appears over the last 12 years to build deep relationships with people in the present. Including people who repeatedly risked their lives, loved ones, and actual freedom for him. Scott Lang went through that house arrest for him. Wanda, Vision, etc. all went on the run because they supported him and his vision of things. They need him, rely on him, look to him for leadership, and love him deeply. And he looks at them, all he's done and been through with them, and thinks, "Nah, f%~& them, I don't need'em and I don't care if I don't see them again for three generations," and decides to go spend 70 years in a different universe with someone he, comparatively speaking, actually knows far less well. It's not a happy ending for many viewers because it looks like he just doesn't actually give a f&*& about anyone but Peggy--who is the one person who doesn't really need him at all and has plenty to give to other people besides him. Even if from their standpoint he was never gone, he will have changed and he has given them the message he can live without them just fine, without grief or regret. Which is a horrible way to think about people you rallied around you and got imprisoned on your behalf. TL;DR Cap is a terrible friend.
I will not harp further on about this; I am aware some are happy with the story and I don't want to keep stomping all over the issue. Just clarifying that one point.
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You are welcome to give Cap a pass, but please don't speak for "us."
According to the Russos, Cap goes to a different timeline to be with Peggy, before returning to the main branch to talk with Sam. I imagine that he and Peg do root out Hydra in that reality.What he does in the alternate timeline may be resolved, but it doesn't justify the callousness and ingratitude he displays toward the other Avengers, people we thought were his friends and family. He appears over the last 12 years to build deep relationships with people in the present. Including people who repeatedly risked their lives, loved ones, and actual freedom for him. Scott Lang went through that house arrest for him. Wanda, Vision, etc. all went on the run because they supported him and his vision of things. They need him, rely on him, look to him for leadership, and love him deeply. And he looks at them, all he's done and been through with them, and thinks, "Nah, f&!& them, I don't need'em and I don't care if I don't see them again for three generations," and decides to go spend 70 years in a different universe with someone he, comparatively speaking, actually knows far less well. It's not a happy ending for many viewers because it looks like he just doesn't actually give a f!&& about anyone but Peggy--who is the one person who doesn't really need him at all and has plenty to give to other people besides him. Even if from their standpoint he was never gone, he will have changed and he has given them the message he can live without them just fine, without grief or regret. Which is a horrible way to think about people you rallied around you and got imprisoned on your behalf. TL;DR Cap is a terrible friend.
I will not harp further on about this; I am aware some are happy with the story and I don't want to keep stomping all over the issue. Just clarifying that one point.
I think he earned his end.
Cap's ending didn't stick in my craw... but only because the movie as a whole had so many plot and time travel contortions that it's really best MST3Ked ("Repeat to yourself, it's just a show.").
I mean... Cap and Carter having a life together? Not the worst thing ever. Neither doing anything about the HYDRA co-opting of SHIELD? Or rescuing Bucky (thereby saving the many, many lives he would take as the Winter Soldier)? Or Ehhhhhhhhhhhh.... BUT.
Let's talk about how half of all animal life in the universe has been grieving, coping, dealing with the airplanes that crashed when pilots went "poof" and so forth... and the other half basically miss all of that and skip ahead five years- and if the cast list for Spider-Man: Far From Home is any indicator at all, what are the odds we never talk about it again? "NOPE, EVERYTHING IS FINE NOW." Apart from aging Cassie Lang up to slightly closer to field-ready age, nobody we care about is shown being affected by it.
Or how apparently in five years of depressive failed funk, Banner was able to integrate with the Hulk but heaven forbid we see any of that.
And so forth- there's something in this movie to please everyone, but there's also plenty of "wait, what?"
I loved the charge of A-Force... except that on some cynical level, all I could see what the scriptwriters going, "wait, we killed off the only woman on the team in the first Avengers movie, we'd better reassure people that we still have female heroes to do stuff."
Widow in this movie was handled.... slightly better than Drax (you wanna talk about a character whose entire dramatic arc got binned pretty much from the second the first Guardians movie ended) in the last one. She got a couple of scenes. Then gets killed off. Note, however, that since Gamora was brought to the present from the past prior to her demise, and literally nobody on the Avengers seemed to notice or think of that as an option? Mumbo-jumbo about the stones enabling that sort of thing and being gone so now Back to the Future rules apply all you want, the fact that nobody even suggests it (especially since they apparently have a wholly reliable time machine now)...
Marvel continues kinda... dumping all over solo films that get in the way of the big pieces. Thor's rubber-band character development has been noted in this thread- but let's also not forget that the prior film kinda crapped all over Ragnarok (Thor has people? No he doesn't. Thor only has one eye? Get hima spare. Thor has realized that the real power never resided in his hammer? Better get him a new one!)
I enjoyed the movie.
But it really, really does not bear much scrutiny on anything beyond the "WHOA CAP IS USING MJOLNIR!" level.
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On the level of WHHHHOOOOOOOOOAAA!!!! it is a fantastic movie.
I think its fine that Cap got to go back to be with Peggy (in an alternative timeline). His whole life has been one of sacrifice. I think most of his friends would kind of want him to be happy, and Sam and Bucky both know he has never really gotten over things. A lot of his friends are also just not around anymore: Stark and Natasha are dead, and Thor is going on off world adventures.
I think its fine that Cap got to go back to be with Peggy (in an alternative timeline). His whole life has been one of sacrifice. I think most of his friends would kind of want him to be happy, and Sam and Bucky both know he has never really gotten over things. A lot of his friends are also just not around anymore: Stark and Natasha are dead, and Thor is going on off world adventures.
Even so, I would be SHOCKED if he and Agent Carter didn't take the fight to Hydra much sooner then in the Prime Timeline.
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Oh yeah...the Russos in at least one interview imply that is what happens in a new split timeline
Well, Chris Evans will be voicing Steve (but not Cap) in the first episode of the What If? Series -- where he is given a Howard-Stark-made Iron Man suit and Peggy gets the Super Soldier serum. That's another thing they could explore in that same series.
It doesn't bother me as much that Cap left. Probably a personal thing, but seeing Cap go through such a traumatic span of 5 years I really don't blame him for wanting get his own "happily ever after." Yes, he is abandoning all these relationships, but there was no way he could retire in the present time line AND maintain those relationships.
I said it in the other thread, and I'll repeat it here: when he said "No, I don't think I will." That should have been the end of it. If memory serves there are a couple of short scenes after that. If I had edited/directed, I would have put those scenes ahead of Cap's return and literally ended the movie on that line. It would have been g+%~~*n f*%*ing perfect.
It would have made a firm statement that the movie doesn't owe you an answer to every question, imbued the character with a humanity rarely recognized, and avoided a pet peeve of mine. It also would have allowed every audience member to imagine for themselves who Cap spent his time with.
Seriously, it's a stupid line of dialogue for a character to say they aren't going to tell someone, and then for the movie to show the audience what they were keeping secret. Either don't say the line, or don't show the thing, but it's sloppy writing to say the line and still show the thing.
It's almost as bad as having a character say "There's no turning back after this." If your script can't make that clear without saying that line, then your script sucks.
Also, I just realized that they didn't just invent time travel, they also invented teleportation. They didn't go to NY and then time jump. They just jumped straight to NY... and Morag. Now, this is limited by Pym particles, but Pym is alive again. Banner built the larger time travel device, and they still have Stark's spacetime GPS devices. Even without time traveling, they can now teleport anywhere they want.
This is why I hate time travel in stories. It creates too many problems and the writers don't think of all of them. Time travel is dumb.
I agree with you on the "I don't think I will" Irontruth. They should have stopped right there, left things to audience imagination, and focused more on Sam's receipt of the mantle, so when you're walking out of the theater, the last thing on your mind is the Avengers' future.
Time travel is the most banned superpower in Mutants and Masterminds for a reason.
Now, onto far more important subjects related to Captain America:
Today Gail Simone's Twitter feed includes various song lyrics about America's Ass (as is right and proper).
(She also talks about an Avengers event she went to at Disneyland recently, though it's mainly about churros.)
(If you do go look and you do not know what her feed is like, she is very irreverent and no, she does not actually think those are Pixar films, or that Transformers are only cars, etc. etc. Gail's feed is one giant trap for the Well Actually crowd.)