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I guarantee you that the implications of all the time meddling have been chewed over more thoroughly in this thread alone than we're ever going to see dealt with in a meaningful way.
Well...I guess we will have to wait and see GotG 3 and see who is right...
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There's a plethora of theories and speculation about time travel, in the real world and in the MCU. No one, not even Bruce or Tony, knows which is/are (as not all are mutually exclusive) correct, if any even are. It could also be complex enough that multiple seemingly-incompatible theories could appear to be correct in different circumstances.
The presence/absence of the Time Stone, the interference of other realities, or meddling of god-like beings could also change things completely.
You know that Mysterio is a consummate liar, and that nothing he says can ever be taken at face value? I am pretty sure he is BSing Fury and the rest.
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[...] there will be some Kind of Gamora.
I don't need the Infinity stones
I don't need a big, fine shipI got everything that a guy could want
Travelin' with you is a special trip
I don't have to run around
I don't have to fight all night
Cause I got a mighty warrior gal
And she knows just how to treat me right
See, my baby, she's alright
See, my baby, we're so tight
Don't you know she is some Kind of Gamora
Yes, she is
She's some Kind of Gamora
Don't you know she is some Kind of Gamora
Let me tell you one more thing
When she holds me in her Power-ful arms
She sets my Soul a-fire
And, ooh, when my baby kisses me,
My Reality's filled with desire
Every Time wraps her loving arms around me
She almost drives me out of my Mind
I get the feel like I'm floating through Space
Chills run up and down my spine
My baby, she's alright
Me and my baby we're so tight
Don't you know she is some Kind of Gamora
Yes she is
Some Kind of Gamora
She is some Kind of Gamora....
Theory: The hammering you hear at the end of the credits is Harley building his own suit of armor and may take over as Iron Man in the next set of movies.
I assumed it was Morgan :)
Observation: It's been five years since the Snap, what is Ned still doing in high school?
I saw/read an interview that mentioned Ned was dusted as well.
"Yeah, while you were gone, I had you declared dead, I remarried, and now I have to repay your $250,000 life insurance payout and try to give you back the contents of our shared bank account and oh yeah, your old intern now has your old job, and has zero interest in giving it up so you can go back there..."
The insurance payout probably wouldn't have happened because too many claims would have all come in at once and life insurance companies would have collectively gone bankrupt. If somehow they did have the money to cover all the claims that would be coming in all at once, with half the staff gone, processing payouts or following up on the validity of claims would be near impossible or at the very least take years, maybe decades.
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When I was chatting about this with Mona, we wondered if unsnapped people came back to their same locations and how that worked. Did folks snapped during airline flights get unsnapped mid air? Maybe this is less of an issue than we assume it might be if essential flights were grounded after the giant alien ring landed in New York? But what about people dusted while on a roller coaster? Or in a kayak on a lake? Or on the top floor of a multi level apartment building that's since burned down?
I was thinking the other day about how traumatizing it would be to be out backpacking in the wilderness and your hiking partner just gets dusted and there is no one for miles to help. You hit your SPOT device and no one comes to your aid. It could be days before you get back to cell reception to find out what happened, this of course assumes your phone services are automated enough to stay running despite half the workers & their knowledge disappearing. And how does gear work? If someone is dusted with their backpack on, does the pack go with them? What if the majority of your food is in their pack, or the tent?
Point being, there's so many interconnected problems that stem from half the population dusting that are brought to their logical conclusions and it destroyed the suspension of disbelief for me when I was watching endgame. How did the auto manufacturing industry bounce back in just five years to get Tony his fancy new car? How were there the resources to build the quantum, time travel device thing? How did the economy bounce back, at least partially from losing half the population in just five years?
Possessing the Infinity Stones makes you, for as long as you can withstand bearing them, effectively Omnipotent. So Bruce could presumably, when wishing all to return, to include "arriving safely in a state that does not instantly get them killed."
I'm not sure if he'd think to bring back those who were killed secondarily by Thanos's snap (who wouldn't care to be that careful), i.e., pilot disappears so whole plane crashes, etc. Would the crash victims return or just those dusted?
How does gear work?
The Russos said that if the items you are carrying wearing are a part of your identity, it goes with you. If not, it doesn't. So, Nick Fury's awesome leather jacket goes with him, but the Captain Marvel pager does not. Bucky's arm goes with him but not his gun. In the backpacking question, I guess it depends on how much their identity is wrapped up in the backpack/the activity of backpacking. (I usually hike alone anyway and carry way too much crap in case something bad happens, but I see your point.)
With Tony in particular, I feel like part of his "power" is to have infinite access to resources (especially with his nanotech) so I wouldn't worry about that. The overall economical and political implications are massive and I doubt will ever be addressed in a nerd-satisfying way, however.
(Speaking of political implications -- 5 years passes, so at least one presidential election and one or two midterms in the United States occurs, if they are able to hold them. How did the Snapture affect districting? The electoral college? 50% of earth's total population was removed, but was it necessarily regionally equal, or did very few Wisconsonians get snapped but a whole bunch of Californians? Was Martial Law declared, and by whom? Etc. etc.)
Possessing the Infinity Stones makes you, for as long as you can withstand bearing them, effectively Omnipotent.
Seems like if that were the case Thanos should have known what a terrible idea the Snap was. >.>
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Well, that's omniscience, first of all, ;) and secondly... as Cap pointed out, the whales were repopulating and the Hudson River was clean. What Thanos was attempting--a way to preserve worlds and resources at the cost of a generation of chaos--actually was accomplished. From his twisted POV, it made perfect sense.
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I'm pretty sure Endgame will break Avatar over it's knee this weekend.
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And then set a record that will be very difficult to break.
It may even be necessary to go back in time, create a blockbuster movie that will suck up moviegoers' cash shortly in advance of Iron Man, and drive down ticket sales that would otherwise have kicked off the MCU.
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What Thanos was attempting--a way to preserve worlds and resources at the cost of a generation of chaos--actually was accomplished. From his twisted POV, it made perfect sense.
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On first impressions that sounds like a solution of sorts. Then you realize the snap took out half of ALL life though.
Plants, animals, plankton, useful microbes, half of all of them. Half the people with skills we take for granted, like those who know how to farm, cultivate the land, or fish commercially. We lose half the Amazon rain forrest, half the bee population.
So widespread famine and pollution would no doubt be an issues still.
We lose half the worlds medical practitioners. And some half the world’s infants and younger children lose their parents/primary care giver. Etc etc.
Not ideal world.
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What Thanos was attempting--a way to preserve worlds and resources at the cost of a generation of chaos--actually was accomplished. From his twisted POV, it made perfect sense.-
On first impressions that sounds like a solution of sorts. Then you realize the snap took out half of ALL life though.
Plants, animals, plankton, useful microbes, half of all of them. Half the people with skills we take for granted, like those who know how to farm, cultivate the land, or fish commercially. We lose half the Amazon rain forrest, half the bee population.
So widespread famine and pollution would no doubt be an issues still.
We lose half the worlds medical practitioners. And some half the world’s infants and younger children lose their parents/primary care giver. Etc etc.
Not ideal world.
A generation of chaos
Note that I emphasize the initial results are chaotic and horrible.
First of all, I am not defending Thanos. He is a villain. He is the Mad Titan. You do not need to convince me that what he did was horrible. Especially since what he mainly wanted to do was prove he was right, at the cost of uncountable lives. So you do not need to convince me of the bad effects of the Snap.
I was attempting to, briefly, explain his mindset as to why he wouldn't heed warnings that what he was about to do was terrible. Thanos considered all of the things you describe acceptable losses. Moreover, what you describe is specifically about how the snap affected humans (and similarly probably intelligent life on other planets). He absolutely didn't care necessarily about preserving human life over that of others, and definitely didn't care that the people immediately left behind by the snap would suffer. He was concerned about the crush of population upon an ecosystem, and took a by any means necessary approach to "fix" it.
Humans, and by extension probably many intelligent beings, populate comparatively slowly to other creatures. We usually only have 1-2 children at a time as opposed to litters. The size of our brains require our children be born in very vulnerable forms; our brains take another 20 years to actually fully grow once we are born. If we take a massive population hit, it will take a very long time to regrow that population. This is however good for the rest of the planet. The worst thing that ever happened to the Earth's ecosystem is us. Our species has caused widespread extinction (not even halving) of other species ever since we more or less started spreading across the planet. There's loads of species right now in danger of utterly dying out because of us. Some of them are in danger of extinction just because some evil a*+%@!$ convinced people the creature's meat would ensure fertility or their bones virility so they could sell it at a high price and make a profit off another creature's extinction, which if you think about it is pretty f#%@ing messed up -- we can be far more cruel than we often give ourselves credit for. (Again I am not defending Thanos. But these are the kinds of things that would fuel his mindset.)
This would not be the same for many other living things. All the microbes would repopulate extraordinarily quickly (they show tests where you clean off a counter with an antibacterial substance, and the few bacteria that remain immediately will split and refill the counter within a minute). A lot of plant life--especially with room created by dusted plants--would reseed within the year (look at how plants return after volcanoes erupt). It might take awhile for new trees to grow talk enough to restore the canopy, but in the meantime smaller plants would very quickly fill in everywhere. Many smaller, lesser creatures would be able to likewise mate and repopulate areas they were once crushed out of by the now-halved and much-more-slowly growing human population. Oceans would definitely refill. Insects would grow and multiply; perhaps sadly for remaining humans, so would mice and rats.
And, to repeat the context you took out of your quote from me, in the world. The movie itself confirms that in some respects, the Snap helped the world's ecology---at the cost of great devastation to human beings in particular, who repopulate slowly and rely on complex roles they have created to guarantee survival (although given everyone was more or less halved, I'm not sure "fewer farmers" or "fewer doctors" would be a problem per se--there are also fewer mouths to feed and fewer patients to cure). The biggest problem for humanity would be what it would do to the technological and political structures we have built. "Lesser" creatures who live without complex politics and economics would recover much more quickly. The Snapture would be a fantastic thing for the world's ecosystem over time--just at a very, very terrible immediate cost, especially for sentient life. The Mad Titan was more than willing to accept--he was willing to inflict on the, in a cosmic scale, short term terrible disaster in order to rebuild planetary environments in the long term. If the Snap wasn't undone, life would actually probably eventually stabilize and maybe even improve... in 25-50 years, even for humans. Whether it would be truly better or worse in the long run for humanity would depend on how humans decided to recover (e.g., declare martial law or build a better democracy?). But all other living entities who survived (we might lose the few species humans had already reduced to a handful) would be doing great, especially in several years' time. Just the any-means-necessary approach to getting there is utterly abominable.
And then when of course he realized that the sentient life would be "ungrateful" for the horrible suffering he inflicts upon them in the short term, his solution is genocide. Why it isn't just wiping everyone's minds of the event I don't know, but again, Thanos is an evil a#*$&%& who doesn't care about suffering and cruelty.
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Yeah...I think I recall reading somewhere that if Thanos "snapped" half of your symbiotic gut bacteria, that bacteria would be back to normal population levels in like an hour or something.
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@DeathQuaker Errr, right. I was on a 6:30 am flight on my third glass of free wine (cause) to help me pass out. Just friendly chatting and posting, not looking to argue. I was probably speed reading your post. I’m a just a happy fan not an editor nor antagonistic, if you look at my thirteen year posting history that’s not my style or candor at all.
Anyways, moving on.
The Snap did only affect ONE Universe right? Not the multiverse.
And also That Tony Stark moment
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And also That Tony Stark moment
Oh yeah tear my heart out again. :(
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And also That Tony Stark moment
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Oh yeah tear my heart out again. :(
In three viewings I teared up each time at the end. Its weird that I don’t when Black Widow gives her life for the stone. Maybe because in the first one I didn’t assume she would not come back?
In three viewings I teared up each time at the end. Its weird that I don’t when Black Widow gives her life for the stone. Maybe because in the first one I didn’t assume she would not come back?And also That Tony Stark moment
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Oh yeah tear my heart out again. :(
I feel like her death isn't as emotional because she was never given movies like Iron Man to really let her character shine and for people to get connected with her. Same with Vision. Also, I would have Loved to see the Netflix crew of Marvel folks in that last battle. Just a cameo would have been really sweet.
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In three viewings I teared up each time at the end. Its weird that I don’t when Black Widow gives her life for the stone. Maybe because in the first one I didn’t assume she would not come back?And also That Tony Stark moment
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Oh yeah tear my heart out again. :(
Part of it is purely the structure of the movie. Black Widow dies halfway through the movie, but it is well before the emotional pay off of the film. From the second snap on, there's a ton of stuff happening that IW and EG have been building to. Lots of little moments are happening in rapid succession and taking you on an emotional roller coaster. While the whole movie is filled with this stuff, the pace accelerates in the last 40 minutes.
Second, Black Widow's sacrifice has relatively low stakes. Either she or Hawkeye is going to die, and the overall reward is the same regardless of which one of them dies (the heroes gain the Soul Stone). The stakes of her sacrifice really get relegated to just helping out Hawkeye. She sacrifices herself for a bit character who very few people have had a lot of emotional investment in. I have yet to hear a single person talk about how happy they are that Hawkeye survived.
Third, the whole situation is super obvious from the audience perspective. You know as soon as they are on Vormir, one of them will die. You know this cause of what happened in IW. Someone has to die. There's no surprise. In contrast to the same scene in IW, Gamora's death is unexpected. Thanos' shock is the audience's shock. In contrast, Barton's shock is not something we feel, because we already know what's coming.
Sorry for the emphatic passion, Baron. I felt like I must not have gotten my point across so felt the need to ramble. (I also get annoyed when folks remove context from discussion, but recognized that was probably an honest mistake.) :) I know you really dug the film, and I'm really glad you liked it. :)
On the subject of tears... I didn't cry at all through Endgame. I've only seen it once and I never plan on watching it again--I can't take the emotional whirlwind that it is through three hours again. It was just too overwhelming to me. Which I think is why I didn't cry. I was just in a constant rush of emotions the whole time and couldn't feel anyone thing to react in a way where my heart was actually broken because too much whiplash was happening too fast. Both in feeling negative emotions as well as very positive ones! (Many times I laughed and cheered watching this movie, I promise.)
I cried during both Guardians of the Galaxy films. I think I cried through a couple moments even in Civil War. I cried watching Spider-Man Homecoming in various spots, because Peter's such a good boy who tries so hard. (That said, I'm not feelin' Far From Home.) IW and Endgame were just too much. I couldn't feel enough of one thing deeply enough to react in that way.
And no, somewhere along the lines I didn't go numb to heartrending moments in watching stories, because the night after I went to Endgame, I went to see the Broadway tour performance of "Come from Away" and wept through the entire thing. Now THERE is a story about heroes coming together to survive a horrifying disaster.
With BW in particular, there was too much disbelief in me and my other friends at the time to grasp what had really happened (especially with all the rumors of a BW movie floating around). Surely she wasn't dead. I was sure up until the very end of the movie that Natasha would be brought back somehow. I even thought it was Natasha sitting by the lake until they zoomed in and I realized it was Steve--I thought Steve was going to trade his own soul + the soul stone to get Natasha back (seems like that would be a more than even exchange, soul for a soul and all; and IF that had happened I probably would have cried). So by the time it really sank in that she is (apparently) gone it was too long after her death for it to be felt in the same way.
Tony I didn't cry because as touching as it was, I also felt like there was a great amount of closure there. I was sad, and touched by the character reactions, but somehow there was a feeling of resolution that made me enough at peace to not cry. I did love his story and his ending--Iron Man's saga through this movie is absolutely one of the best things about this film and the best piece of storytelling in it, IMO, by far.
I see what you are saying and I can agree with it. My point is more about the physicality of Captain America - he’s faster than normL people, stronger, better endurance, heals more quickly, heck - one of the reasons he can do such cool stuff with his shield is related to the Serum. Sam even makes comments about it on more than one occassion in the movies “I’ll be doing whatever he does, just slower” etc.
I agree Sam probably is the closest to Steve’s moral center and ideals. But he’s nowhere near Cap from a physical, super soldier’s abilities sense, and to me that matters. Captain America is BOTH of those things - his sense of right and his morals AND his superior super soldier induced abiliities. In my opinion you can’t have one but not the other and still call someone Captain America. It just isn’t the same. Not for me anyway ...
As a diehard Captain America fan, for me Steve Rogers is the one true Cap.
That said, I'm a big Falcon/Sam Wilson fan as well and I've loved Mackie's portrayal of the character in the MCU. In terms of the physical limitations of normal human vs. super soldier, you're spot on.
However, Sam as Captain America is often referred to as Falcon Cap because he's effectively still in the Falcon suit (just a red-white-and-blue version) + the vibranium shield.
Chris Evans is the perfect Steve Rogers, IMO, and while I want more Steve Rogers stories in the MCU, I liked the way they handled the passing of the torch/shield in Endgame.
Look all I know is if they don't find a way to bring back Paul Bethany as Vision, they should at least bring into the MCU, John Hammond, the FIRST Human Torch. (Who was an android/synthoid.)
The one change I would like to see to Endgame.
I really love that change. Especially with the symbolism and foreshadowing it helps create.
Well, they were (in the comics) built on the same neural framework if memory serves. That would hearken back to the origins of Vision, even.
Kal,
I think they just had the same name. But Hammond in the comics is an android. Also Wei Ji, they did but not idea if that will come up in MCU.
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The one change I would like to see to Endgame.
Yeah, that was pretty cool, and he's not wrong about her being best suited for that scene.
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I keep seeing these articles about how big a deal it is that Cap went to Vormir off-screen and bumped into the Red Skull again, and I'm like, 'Whatever. How about *sneaking into Asgard, past Heimdall, and injecting the Reality Stone back into Jane Foster, against her will, in the middle of Odin's palace?* Was that a walk in the park?' :)
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Did not watch the whole video, but agree with the bit I saw that Nebula should have gotten more of a key play in the final battle.
Cap returning the stones could be a whole movie in itself. It's kind of crazy how handwaved it is. I realize in the end it's a matter of well we know he was successful because he has to be, but there are SO MANY implications and SO MANY questions. Even getting the Tesseract back (does that prevent Loki from getting it or are those two different timelines now?) and the scepter would be tricky.
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In regards to the scepter, I think returning it isn't as tricky. Cap is well known to SHIELD and Hydra, so they would readily receive it from him. Of course this means that Cap has to return it knowing what Hydra will do with it in Sokovia.
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Seems like Cap would/should have been the worst person chosen to return the stones. It's hard to imagine a guy who says, "If I see a situation pointed south, I can't ignore it," be able to ignore all this evil (or even perform harmful acts, such as re-infecting Jane). I recognize the Snap and the horrible consequences if the stones are not returned provides grander perspective, but here.
Chris,
But there might be a story reason because people don't like death to be a status effect. At least in movies anyway...