Avengers: Endgame SPOILERY AF Review Thread. Don't read if you haven't seen the film!


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Grand Lodge

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I was at the Heroes Assemble event Tuesday night. It was well worth it, getting pictures with Doctor Strange, Loki, Groot, Starlord, and Gamora. I wanted to get Iron Man but the queue was an hour and forty-five minutes, so I decided I had better things to do in the four hour event. Like take pictures with Captain Marvel.

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Nice! Was it mainly photo-ops or other activities as well? Did you eat Infinity churros?

Grand Lodge

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They had a churro for each stone, but we didn't take the time to stop for any of them. There were other photo ops besides the characters, where you could stand in front of Falcon's or Wasp's wings and take pictures, as well as look like you're smashing a car with Hulk gloves. There was also a standout of Surtur that looked cool. The only real activity was a scavenger hunt for a code word to become an undercover Shield agent and get Avengers collectors cards. Otherwise, it was just a low crowd night to be able to get on the rides with minimum lines.


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I know that Falcon getting the Captain America mantle happens in the comics, though I'm not at all familiar with how it works out. And if someone else is taking on Captain America, I'm glad its Sam. But there's part of me that is bummed we don't get to see more of Sam as Falcon, a superhero in his own right. The Captain America shield comes with some pretty cool stuff, but it also comes with some baggage and I'd like to see a Falcon movie with Sam as the main character uninhibited by any restrictions brought from another superhero's "brand". I don't want Sam's role as Falcon to be overshadowed or overwritten because he got a hand-me-down hero title.

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Well, the Disney+ series is being called "Falcon and the Winter Soldier" so presumably the emphasis is on Sam (and Bucky), no matter the mantle. Though of course it may be the two working together to create his new Captain America identity as well, but I hope as you say we see him in depth. No that's not a movie, but, the upshot of a TV series is there is much more time for character development.

I think we really needed a proper Cap 3 that wasn't Civil War that could have developed Sam and Agent 13 a lot more; Civil War, no matter how much they wanted to insist otherwise, really was, as Screen Junkies put it, Iron Man 4/Avengers 2.5. But that will not be.

I am not deeply familiar with Sam as Cap, but I did briefly read an Avengers run (that seemed to start too soon before Civil War II ended it--f&+& event crossovers, man) with him as the leader. I really felt like he was both Falcon and Captain America, and most importantly, Sam Wilson. So hopefully they can look to the comics for the right inspiration. (He also had a romance with Jane Foster-Thor which was a surprise but really well done. I doubt we'll see that in the MCU though.)


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Where was howard the duck?

Go back and look at the scene with Thors mom, with the idea that she's actually loki and a LOT of her dialog makes a lot more sense. Leave the sneaking to your brother, eat a salad for Odins sake, and of course "i know you're from the future why don't you tell me aaaaaalll about it...."


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Howard was with the Ravagers during the big entrance scene against Thanos

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Or Loki took after Frigga who raised him. That would be interesting though.

Random thing: the doohickey they used to extract the Aether looked like a high tech version of the one they used to extract Darkforce from Whitney Frost in Agent Carter season 2. Probably coincidence (though maybe Tony made it based on old notes of his Dad's...). Either way it's odd they had something so easy to remove it when it was such a huge plot point in the Dark World... but maybe Asgard just needs more Stark tech. ;)

Scarab Sages

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DQ, more likely Thor described what was needed to remove the Aether from Jane to Tony, so he didn't have to start from scratch. Also, how many weeks did it take to build the time machine? Was everyone just sitting around waiting?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah passing the shield on to Sam...eh. Unfortunately Falcon is perhaps the single least developed re-occurring character in the MCU. I get why it happened, but it would have been nice if he had gotten more development, such as maybe not being dusted and taking War Machine's place or something.


Lord Fyre wrote:


-- Having Steve Rodgers stay in the present would have been smarter. It would also make him FAR less selfish (and thus worthy of lifting Mjolnir). The idea that (if in the past) he does NOTHING about the rebirth of HYDRA within SHIELD makes not sense. Fighting Hydra back in the later 40s/50s would have been a valid reason to go back, not for his personal happiness.

Why do you assume that he didn't do that? By going back to Peggy, he created an alternate reality. If he fought Hydra in the fifties there it would have no impact on the "main" reality because of how time travel worked in the movie. Nor did his going back undo anything that he did in the previous movies.

Also, leaving your buds to be with the love of your life (when there's no possibility to have both) doesn't seem so awful to me. It seems like a good ending for the character.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I'd much rather have a family/many deeply loyal friends who'd never abandon me than 1 love I knew for far less time, especially when I know she is guaranteed happiness without me. I'd also just rather be a good friend and decent person to the people who have done right by me for the longest time.

MMCJawa wrote:
Yeah passing the shield on to Sam...eh. Unfortunately Falcon is perhaps the single least developed re-occurring character in the MCU. I get why it happened, but it would have been nice if he had gotten more development, such as maybe not being dusted and taking War Machine's place or something.

I stand by the fact that Captain America 3 should have been a separate movie from Civil War, and Civil War should have been Avengers 3. Yes, it would have been more work and more of a wait for Infinity War. And it should have just been Cap and Sam looking for Bucky with Sharon Carter's help (poor Emily Van Camp -- she gets cast as a character who has an incredibly big role in the comics and she's diminished to Blonde Cardboard Cutout Hottie #254). I realize logistically it would have been really been hard to do one extra movie, but I wish Cap 3 had *really* been Cap 3 (I agree with Screenjunkies that Civil War was really Iron Man 4: Avengers 2.5). BUCKY has also had almost no character development at all since TFA. The Cap family has really not done well by the MCU -- compare how well we know Rhodey, Pepper and Happy (personality wise, how much screen time they've had) to how well we know Sam, Bucky, and Sharon (or, even Peggy, if you don't count her TV series, which apparently the Russos don't anyway. After TFA she's mainly been a 2 dimensional object for Steve to look sad at. Yes, obviously she is old (and then dies) but in the Cap films and endgame she gets deeply detached from her humanity and is just sort of this abstract object of tragedy. Her cameo in ANT MAN was her best post-TFA role for f@#!'s sake, though GILF Peggy in TWS had some good lines).

I wouldn't have wanted Sam to replace Rhodey as his role in Endgame was great--I loved the moment where he was relating to Nebula about relying on cybernetic to live. But if he had been able to have his own part, sure. On the other hand... the "On Your Left" was pretty f&*#ing amazing. And we WILL at least get to see him developed more in the future. I'm looking forward to it.

Grand Lodge

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That sounds fair. TFA made me a Cap fan after never really being into The Avengers growing up. But looking back on it, Winter Soldier and Civil War didn't really do much for Sam or Bucky. Sharon Carter ended up just being Exposition Bot.


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MMCJawa wrote:
Yeah passing the shield on to Sam...eh. Unfortunately Falcon is perhaps the single least developed re-occurring character in the MCU.

Seriously?

Sure, most of his development was in his first appearance, but he's still leaps and bounds ahead of:

1. Literally everyone from the first two Thor movies that wasn't Thor (whose development has been a damn pinball game) and Loki, and arguably everyone but Valkyrie from the third.

2. Happy Hogan- even his role in Spider-Man: Homecoming didn't really do much to flesh him out beyond what he'd hit by Iron Man 2

3. Vision and Wanda- when your romance goes from a single kind of longing glance in Civil War to "OMG WE'RE DATING, NO, YOU DON'T GET TO WATCH HOW WE GOT HERE!" safe to say you're somewhat under-cooked.

4. Anyone from Doctor Strange's neck of the woods. Including Doctor Strange.

And so forth. I actually think Falcon has a lot of meat on his bones, in terms of character development.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Or Loki took after Frigga who raised him. That would be interesting though.

Random thing: the doohickey they used to extract the Aether looked like a high tech version of the one they used to extract Darkforce from Whitney Frost in Agent Carter season 2. Probably coincidence (though maybe Tony made it based on old notes of his Dad's...). Either way it's odd they had something so easy to remove it when it was such a huge plot point in the Dark World... but maybe Asgard just needs more Stark tech. ;)

For both this and the Pym particles

"Remember you're only a genius on earth "

Rocket was using it, he may have rigged it up.

Liberty's Edge

I don’t get Sam as the new Captiain America. He doesn’t have the Super Soldier Serum which to me is an integral aspect of Cap. Sam is cool as Falcon but I just don’t see him as Cap.

Buckey on the other hand DOES have the Super Soldier Serum and therefor seems like a much more logical candidate ...


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What made Cap "Cap" wasn't the serum, it was his personality. The shield has to go to someone with a strong moral center.

Bucky doesn't really have that. Bucky is a deprogrammed killing machine. He's a depressed mess, who does all of this out of guilt. Think back to when T'Challa brings him the new arm. Bucky was perfectly fine chopping wood and carrying water for the rest of his life, but he knew he had an obligation to T'Challa (and others), and so would put it on and fight.

Whoever holds the mantle of Captain America needs to be a leader who can decide what path to take. Bucky can't do that. Sam might be inexperienced at it, but he is well situated to learn and grow into that role. Sam knows that he has to be the same kind of man that Rodgers was. That he has to inspire others the way Rodgers did. Bucky isn't ready to inspire others.

The shield isn't a symbol of strength. The shield is a symbol of values.

Liberty's Edge

I see what you are saying and I can agree with it. My point is more about the physicality of Captain America - he’s faster than normL people, stronger, better endurance, heals more quickly, heck - one of the reasons he can do such cool stuff with his shield is related to the Serum. Sam even makes comments about it on more than one occassion in the movies “I’ll be doing whatever he does, just slower” etc.

I agree Sam probably is the closest to Steve’s moral center and ideals. But he’s nowhere near Cap from a physical, super soldier’s abilities sense, and to me that matters. Captain America is BOTH of those things - his sense of right and his morals AND his superior super soldier induced abiliities. In my opinion you can’t have one but not the other and still call someone Captain America. It just isn’t the same. Not for me anyway ...


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Captain america service announcement

"Remember Kids steroids are bad. Its cheating and it's wro.. am I really the person to be giving this one? "


That can come later though. It's harder to gain that moral standing, but there are lots of ways to be "enhanced". I mean, it's literally Rodgers' origin story.

I agree that it's hard to be relevant in these stories without being powered in some way. If they want Sam to take the lead in a movie, he has to be powered-up. So I agree with you that in his current iteration, Sam is a bit underwhelming as CA. I'm a big fan of names being titles (ie, there is always a Dread Pirate Roberts type thing), and I think Sam is the best character to hold that title. A 6-10 episode series that gives him some new abilities will set up his involvement in future movies well.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Not that I want to persuade anyone, but I don't think Steve landed back in time just for Peggy.

I think he went back for his world. Yes, he's been in the 21st Century for ten years or so. But he's been a man-out-of-his-element for the entire time. Sometimes he asserts himself in the world, and sometimes he just watches the wonder of it, but he's rarely comfortable in it.

He outlines this in one of his last conversations with Natasha. He's not the kind of person to just move on. Not with Thanos' mass murder, and not with his original skip into Times Square.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Just saw it. I really enjoyed it. My biggest timey-wimey question though, is whether or not Sharon Carter from Winter Soldier & Civil War,was actually both Cap's niece and quasi love interest? "Hey Sharon, go move in next door to totally not your uncle to keep an eye on him and flirt with him a bit." *Time Travel*

ANNND editing my own post. She was Peggy's niece. Damn...

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archmagi1 wrote:

Just saw it. I really enjoyed it. My biggest timey-wimey question though, is whether or not Sharon Carter from Winter Soldier & Civil War,was actually both Cap's niece and quasi love interest? "Hey Sharon, go move in next door to totally not your uncle to keep an eye on him and flirt with him a bit." *Time Travel*

ANNND editing my own post. She was Peggy's niece. Damn...

Short version: Sharon is Peggy's great niece, the granddaughter of Peggy's brother.

Everything Cap did in the past is an alternate universe and does not affect the "Prime" MCU (so no, Sharon does not remember having Cap as an "uncle").

Long Version, in which DQ Rambles on Way too Much about Alternate Universes, Cap, Peggy, and Sharon and it's probably best just not to click this:

So, the Russos have clarified that, per the rules of time travel in their story, Cap created an alternate timeline by going back in time and staying there. When people travel in time, they "hop" to alternate universes, rather than do things that alter or add to the history of the world they come from, and they cannot change their own past.

This means in the "Prime" MCU -- the timeline we are watching throughout the last 22 movies and, what, 9 or 10 tv shows? -- Cap "dies" and thaws out in 2012 and never appears in between. Peggy moves on, fights crime, flirts with Angie, Dottie, Jason, and Daniel, hooks up with Daniel, and eventually becomes director of SHIELD and has a husband who is not Steve, with whom she has two children. When older, she takes in Sharon, the granddaughter of her brother Michael (presumably this means Sharon's parents died).

((I know I said I would drop the Cap thing. I am clarifying implications given the questions asked after this. I promise I'll leave it be after this.))

Cap chooses to "be happy" by going back to the end of World War II to "have his dance" and living through the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, segregation, Kent State, and Nixon, etc. even though he knows Peggy could be perfectly happy without him and can't be sure he could be happy with her, given they knew each other in difficult times for only a few months and kissed only once twelve years ago from his perspective. By showing up and marrying her he creates an alternate universe; part of that universe is probably that Peggy is prevented from keeping her job at the SSR (all women, as in real life, were fired from their war jobs; "Agent Carter" makes clear she was only allowed to keep it basically in honor of Cap's memory and even then was always on the verge of being sacked; with Cap himself available to help out, they wouldn't consider her, a woman, a valuable employee once the war was over, in spite of her record (in real life many supremely qualified women lost their jobs; maybe he insisted upon them keeping her but I don't think it's realistic if they did). On the upshot, he might find and rescue Bucky and more successfully root out Hydra splinter cells, and there might be no SHIELD formed for Hydra to infiltrate anyway, since with Cap around they won't need SHIELD (Agent Carter shows that there are many agencies pushing for the closure of the SSR after the war, so it's more likely that happens in this universe).

And yes, when little girl Sharon presumably loses her parents, either Peggy takes her in and Cap helps raise a girl who in another universe he courted and he keeps that secret, or he tells Peggy, "well in the universe I came from, I know what the inside of her mouth tastes like, so we can't take her in" and she is adopted by someone else. Or possibly maybe in a happier option, her family is kept safe and there is no reason to take her in. Obviously in this new universe, she never knows a Cap to date.

On the upshot, this alternate universe Sharon would never have any awareness of Cap dating another version of herself, unless he told her. But Cap would indeed know who she is.

Other vaguely related stuff while I am blathering on: in the comics, Sharon is Steve's longtime sometime love interest, all the time ally. She has a massive role in the comics, as large if not larger than Sam and Bucky in Cap's solo title. Peggy was a background character, a "flame" he flirted with but knew briefly; while he is initially attracted to Sharon because she looked like Peggy (originally in the 1960s they were far-apart-in-age sisters), they get to know one another over time and decide they like each other based on merit and date after getting Peggy's blessing; while the sister-dating thing is a little icky, it's sort of handled with a little more taste and tact in the comics. While Sharon was a major player, Peggy was largely a background figure and, tied to the World War II setting (whereas Sharon progressively was retconned back to being her niece and then great niece), eventually was allowed to die of old age. She never had a huge role--she was a SHIELD agent and Avengers staff member, and platonic friend and advisor to Steve occasionally, but had no leadership roles. Sharon for a time was Commander of SHIELD after being one of its agents for a long time.

As best as I can figure, originally intended to have the MCU reflect the comics--Steve and Peggy would be more or less a tragic but definitely one-off fling, and Sharon would be his longtime love interest (I would say "endgame" but that seems the wrong word to choose in this case). Then two things happened -- first, Peggy's role was written convincingly well enough and moreover brilliantly performed by Hayley Atwell that she ended up being the best written female love interest at the time in the MCU (compared to early Pepper Potts and Jane Foster). So no one wanted Peggy forgotten. Second, Sharon, who was supposed to be introduced in and have a huge role in the Winter Soldier, was sidelined for Natasha, as the Disney executives wanted a larger box office draw, and Scarlett Johannsson was fresh off the surprisingly successful "Lucy." (Mind, I think Black Widow's role in the Winter Soldier was fantastic, but it came at the cost of giving Agent 13 a chance to become the type of character she was in the comics.) They planned to give Sharon a bigger role in Cap 3, but again she was sidelined as Cap 3 developed into Civil War and became mainly an Avengers movie without "Avengers" in the title; apparently one of the many things that caused her mostly to be written out was that they learned they could get the rights to Spider-Man. If that hadn't happened, Ant-Man would have been on Iron Man's side, and Sharon would have been a more active team member on Cap's side, including in the airport battle (which is why you see her in the Lego toy version of the airport battle). In spite of Sharon again being sidelined for more Tony, Avengers drama in general, and Spidey, the Russos and Markus/McFeeley still seemed dead set on giving Sharon the new "love interest" role, so they still get their kiss in Civil War, though much of the dialogue leading up to it is on the cutting room floor.

The following is ENTIRELY speculation on my part, but I like to imagine that at this point, Emily Van Camp looked at the fact that she had been offered the most important (in the comics) role in the Cap family besides Cap and maybe Bucky, but in the end had been diminished to "Random Blonde Kissyface Who Happens to Be Related to Hayley Atwell's Awesome Character" and therefore shoved her copies of the script up the Russos' and Markus/McFeeley's collective orifices. Because the Russos and Markus/McFeeley are apparently pathetic enough in their own psyches and social lives/lack thereof to not understand that people can be happy without a love interest, and that though of course it is wonderful to be in love, entirely relying upon a love interest for all of your happiness is called "co-dependency" and is a very toxic thing, AND even though as of Cap 3 they wanted/planned on Sharon to be hooked up with Cap, they decided to have Cap forget she existed and go back to Peggy at the end of Endgame to give them a nice pat ending they didn't want to put a lot of thought or care into).

I promise I am done now. Look, just forget all this and watch Emily Van Camp and Hayley Atwell Dubsmash Aretha Franklin's "Respect (if you keep playing you will also see further insanity and forget any of this nonsense).


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Not disputing what the Russos have said about about time travel works in the MCU, but personally I have always hated the notion that decisions (whether "every decision" or "significant decisions") spawn alternate universes/timelines.

The notion seems to clearly violate the laws of conservation of both mass and energy on an unimaginably huge scale. Cap decides to be with Peggy; to accommodate him, the multiverse spontaneously duplicates a few quadrillion living beings and the necessary space to contain them?

Even if you argue that a timeline isn't a universe, and isn't made up of mass or energy, but merely adds another dimensional axis to the universe, it still seems like you are altering the n-dimensional shape of the universe, and shouldn't be able to do that "for free."

Anyway, it is what it is. No further thread hijacking from me.

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Maybe there are consequences. Maybe that's why the Darkforce rift showed up in Agent Carter Season 2, because Cap was f&&&ing too much with the universe, so the dark dimension started leaking through in places across timelines. Maybe the other timelines spawned by the time heist will also lead to other crazy things happening, and it may be explored in future movies. If they decided to tie the X-Men in, this could be a big factor in it. (Although I wish the X-universe would be kept separate from the MCU because they each universes of their own stuff going on. FF and that aspect of things folding into the MCU would be good, though.)

Oooh, maybe it'll lead to an Exiles movie. That could be fun.

(Which is not to say I disagree with you at all, Damon, but this is what we are stuck with so speculating on where it could go from here.)


DeathQuaker wrote:

Maybe there are consequences. Maybe that's why the Darkforce rift showed up in Agent Carter Season 2, because Cap was f#$#ing too much with the universe, so the dark dimension started leaking through in places across timelines.

That's an interesting idea.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

All of which is to say that, in the universe that began the movie, with cranky Tony and head-lopping Thor, everybody stays dead. Natasha dies so that an alternate universe can branch out. Moreover, *every* Avenger who went into the Quantum Realm just vanished from the original trunk-line and never returned. (They came back to a different branch.)

Yes?

Well, that's almost the most depressing thing I've heard today.

The most depressing thing is that, if the Ancient One is correct, then both the original time-line (in which Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones) and the "time heist" timeline (in which the Avengers took the Infinity Stones) no longer have the stones' guidance corrections, and will both spiral out into chaos and woe.

Liberty's Edge

DeathQuaker wrote:


Short version: Sharon is Peggy's great niece, the granddaughter of Peggy's brother.

Everything Cap did in the past is an alternate universe and does not affect the "Prime" MCU (so no, Sharon does not remember having Cap as an "uncle").

** spoiler omitted **...

Wait ...

“Peggy moves on, fights crime, flirts with Angie, Dottie, Jason, and Daniel, hooks up with Daniel ...

I never watched the show ... did I read that right??

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I suppose to be fair, Angie and Dottie more flirted with Peggy, than the other way around. But Peggy didn't seem to mind much. Some of this may also be up to interpretation.

Any of my mischief aside, I strongly recommend watching the series, which is available on Hulu among other sources. It is an excellent historic early Cold War era Pulp Spy series, and the first season is especially strong after it finds its footing after the first episode or so. Tremendously good action and fight choreography too. Great stuff with Howard Stark as well, and you will see more of the butler Jarvis who cameoed in Endgame. Plus the roots of the Red Room.


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Damon Griffin wrote:

Not disputing what the Russos have said about about time travel works in the MCU, but personally I have always hated the notion that decisions (whether "every decision" or "significant decisions") spawn alternate universes/timelines.

The notion seems to clearly violate the laws of conservation of both mass and energy on an unimaginably huge scale. Cap decides to be with Peggy; to accommodate him, the multiverse spontaneously duplicates a few quadrillion living beings and the necessary space to contain them?

Even if you argue that a timeline isn't a universe, and isn't made up of mass or energy, but merely adds another dimensional axis to the universe, it still seems like you are altering the n-dimensional shape of the universe, and shouldn't be able to do that "for free."

Anyway, it is what it is. No further thread hijacking from me.

In real world physics there is a possibility that the cost of creating a universe is 0. The question is whether quantum fluctuations is enough to trigger such an event. If it is a sufficient trigger, than there would be no prohibition in the laws of physics to creating an infinite number of universes, since the net cost of each one is 0. Lawrence Krauss and Sean Carroll talk about parts of this in their various lectures.

Dark Archive

Theory: The hammering you hear at the end of the credits is Harley building his own suit of armor and may take over as Iron Man in the next set of movies.

Observation: It's been five years since the Snap, what is Ned still doing in high school?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Marik Whiterose wrote:
Observation: It's been five years since the Snap, what is Ned still doing in high school?

Presumably, he got snapped, too.

Pity the passengers of the plane that crashed, having lost their pilots. Pity, too, those lost souls brought back, both pilots and passengers, five years after their plane left that airspace.

--

Upon reflection, Bruce used the gauntlet to bring people back, to save lives. Tony used the gauntlet unnecessarily. He could have flown off with it, turned Thanos into a big pile of cubes, and sent the entire army into a decaying orbit 25,000 miles from the sun.

He died because he was expeditious, rather than cautious.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

All of which is to say that, in the universe that began the movie, with cranky Tony and head-lopping Thor, everybody stays dead. Natasha dies so that an alternate universe can branch out. Moreover, *every* Avenger who went into the Quantum Realm just vanished from the original trunk-line and never returned. (They came back to a different branch.)

Yes?

Well, that's almost the most depressing thing I've heard today.

The most depressing thing is that, if the Ancient One is correct, then both the original time-line (in which Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones) and the "time heist" timeline (in which the Avengers took the Infinity Stones) no longer have the stones' guidance corrections, and will both spiral out into chaos and woe.

Nope, the universe with the head lopping is the main universe, those folks got unsnappped. It's only when characters go back into the past is a new timeline created. The present still exists...bringing the stone to the present doesn't change anything.

At the very least, we currently have:

1 new timeline with Loki running around free, with the tesseract

1 new timeline with Cap going back in the past to be with Peggy,and presumably rescuing Bucky earlier and rooting out Hydra

1 new timeline where Thanos and his forces no longer exist, and Gamora has been brought to the present

Potentially, there are also new timelines from the 70's adventures and Ragnarok, although those changes could have been so minor to not really affect anything.

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I don't believe Gamora was brought to the present. I think either all of Thanos's forces, Gamora included, were either snapped back to their original time, or ended. Tony wouldn't have known Gamora to keep her, and if she had remained she would have been on earth, easily findable when Star Lord ran his search for her at the end of the movie. (But she was not showing up on his scan).

I think when and if Gamora returns in GOTG it will be a different way, perhaps because Thanos destroyed the soul stone--what happens to Soul World when the stone is no more?

Silver Crusade

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Gamora and Black Widow buddy cop team up?


Chris Mortika wrote:


Pity the passengers of the plane that crashed, having lost their pilots. Pity, too, those lost souls brought back, both pilots and passengers, five years after their plane left that airspace.

I don't see why he couldn't bring them back too. The gauntlet is NOT a jackass genie. It actually does what you do try to get it to.

As for people being in the air when they come back, the earth has also moved both around the sun, spun in place, around the center of the milky way and along with whatever the milky way is doing. Putting people back on the ground next to that is pretty easy.


DeathQuaker wrote:

I don't believe Gamora was brought to the present. I think either all of Thanos's forces, Gamora included, were either snapped back to their original time, or ended. Tony wouldn't have known Gamora to keep her, and if she had remained she would have been on earth, easily findable when Star Lord ran his search for her at the end of the movie. (But she was not showing up on his scan).

I think when and if Gamora returns in GOTG it will be a different way, perhaps because Thanos destroyed the soul stone--what happens to Soul World when the stone is no more?

Gamora 1 is gone. She was traded for the soulstone. That's a no backsies trade. The gamora 2 who by all appearances seems to be sticking around is from the second timelime.

"it was him or the tree..."

I'm not sure if Dax or rocket should be more offended...

I think tony can just kill them all. By the stated rules of time travel something in the present won't affect the past.

Dark Archive

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MMCJawa wrote:
For what it's worth, given we are getting a black widow movie, I suspect that is the real underlying reason she didn't get a bigger send off. It's not really her last "moment" with the fans, versus Steven and Tony, who are truly done.

Yeah, that's the impression I got, that we'd be seeing Natasha (and Loki, and Wanda + Vision) eventually anyway in another show, so the Russo's felt less pressure to deal with the resolution of their arcs in Endgame, forgetting that *in-story,* none of those *characters* know that we are going to address these in later shows, and, for them, Vision and Natasha are really dead and gone, and Loki is out there with the Tesseract, which are big freaking elephants in the room to be brushing over.

Sure, to be fair, they had a ton of balls to juggle, and arcs to wrap up or set up, but Natasha, in particular, feels like a dropped ball.

My own bias doesn't help. I do not like MCU Hawkeye (or Jeremy Renner's attitude in interviews / press junkets), so when he and Natasha are fighting over who gets to die, I was so rooting for him to take the dive. :)

As for the unsnappening, wow, that's going to be a weird, weird world...

A few *billion* people just reappeared after having been gone for five years. *Many* people are going to snap back to find out that their wives / husbands / partners have moved on to be with new people, that their homes are no longer their homes (having been sold by surviving relatives, or simply fallen into disrepair and are now owned by the bank since nobody was there to pay the bills), that their formerly same-age friends and classmates are now five years older than they are, that their jobs have been taken over by other people *for years* and that there is about half as much of everything to go around, because industry has been creating goods (and food, and teachers, and nurses) for a population half the size of what suddenly exists!

The entire world will have tent cities full of these people, *in the millions,* appearing in a world that has passed them by, having lost homes, careers, spouses, etc. Even if you were *rich,* your 'heirs' have had *five years* to divvy up your wealth, and gosh, won't they be *thrilled* that you are back and fighting to reclaim the 'inheritance' they've been living on...

Peter reuniting with his friend in high school is particularly odd, in that light. Anyone who was in their class who got snapped, is fine, but half their class *graduated years ago.* It seems to be, from the Spider-Man: Far From Home trailers, that MJ and Flash are *also* still in school, and not 'suddenly five years older.'

What a crazy world the MCU has turned out to be!

"Yeah, while you were gone, we had another child, and your old room is now the baby's room..."

"Yeah, while you were gone, I had you declared dead, I remarried, and now I have to repay your $250,000 life insurance payout and try to give you back the contents of our shared bank account and oh yeah, your old intern now has your old job, and has zero interest in giving it up so you can go back there..."


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DeathQuaker wrote:

I don't believe Gamora was brought to the present. I think either all of Thanos's forces, Gamora included, were either snapped back to their original time, or ended. Tony wouldn't have known Gamora to keep her, and if she had remained she would have been on earth, easily findable when Star Lord ran his search for her at the end of the movie. (But she was not showing up on his scan).

I think when and if Gamora returns in GOTG it will be a different way, perhaps because Thanos destroyed the soul stone--what happens to Soul World when the stone is no more?

If they were snapped back, then why did they fade away to dust and not just use some other effect? And Tony...well after the crap Thanos did, Tony is certainly going to end him rather than send him back to his time.

As for Gamora, Quill can be seen searching for her/tracking her when Thor boards the spaceship


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MMCJawa wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

I don't believe Gamora was brought to the present. I think either all of Thanos's forces, Gamora included, were either snapped back to their original time, or ended. Tony wouldn't have known Gamora to keep her, and if she had remained she would have been on earth, easily findable when Star Lord ran his search for her at the end of the movie. (But she was not showing up on his scan).

I think when and if Gamora returns in GOTG it will be a different way, perhaps because Thanos destroyed the soul stone--what happens to Soul World when the stone is no more?

If they were snapped back, then why did they fade away to dust and not just use some other effect? And Tony...well after the crap Thanos did, Tony is certainly going to end him rather than send him back to his time.

As for Gamora, Quill can be seen searching for her/tracking her when Thor boards the spaceship

Vision's death is pretty easy to get around though. He is a robot after all that was getting his neural net scanned right before dying.

Here's hoping that the next few movies kind of explore the post snap world.


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MMCJawa wrote:
Here's hoping that the next few movies kind of explore the post snap world.

Given just how tangled the implications are, I bet we never get into it beyond a few throwaway lines, maybe a villain or hero origin motivation here or there...

EDIT: if nothing else, the new Spiderman trailer sure seems to be glossing over the five-year timeskip part as hard and fast as it can.

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MMCJawa wrote:


Here's hoping that the next few movies kind of explore the post snap world.

If you've seen the new Spider Man Far From Home trailer that dropped today, it looks that's kind of the route they are going ...


Not surprised but I still don't trust Mysterio. Call it a guess.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Not surprised but I still don't trust Mysterio. Call it a guess.

It would actually be kind of hilarious if it turns out he's on the level... the howls of outrage alone would be worth my own blindsiding.


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Cole Deschain wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
Here's hoping that the next few movies kind of explore the post snap world.

Given just how tangled the implications are, I bet we never get into it beyond a few throwaway lines, maybe a villain or hero origin motivation here or there...

EDIT: if nothing else, the new Spiderman trailer sure seems to be glossing over the five-year timeskip part as hard and fast as it can.

I expect we will mostly get this in the Disney+ shows, which have 6-8 hours to explore this. I mean Falcon and Cap, at the very least, have to take place post un-snap.

Rumor has it that the Black Widow sequel is a prequel, but maybe it's a prequel that takes place post IW but pre-Endgame. That could also deal with things.

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MCCJawa wrote:
If they were snapped back, then why did they fade away to dust and not just use some other effect?

Because with the reality stone you can make it look and feel however you want, and there's a poetic justice to it, and Stark's a poetic justice sort of guy.... and thus...

Quote:
And Tony...well after the crap Thanos did, Tony is certainly going to end him rather than send him back to his time.

....AND being a better a%*%&+!, Tony knows (by this theory, which is not my own) he is sending Thanos back to only ultimately, always have his goals subverted (by Bruce's first snap) is far a sweeter revenge than just ending him.

Also that way it creates one less branch timeline which as someone who understands the consequences of mucking around with quantum physics, he might try to do. 6 years older Tony seems to have a much better grasp of consequences than his younger self.

Quote:
As for Gamora, Quill can be seen searching for her/tracking her when Thor boards the spaceship

That is exactly the scene I was referring to. He is looking for her but it says something like "not found." If she was right on Earth with them, it wouldn't say that. In fact, she would have stayed beside Nebula the whole time.

Rysky wrote:
Gamora and Black Widow buddy cop team up?

I would so very watch this movie. Sadly, I doubt that's what they are making, but they SHOULD, g$&~&!mit.


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Soulstone Sheriffs? (play on Keystone Kops)

edit: This immediately made me to start imagining it as a sort of mythological Wild West with super powers.

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Irontruth wrote:

Soulstone Sheriffs? (play on Keystone Kops)

edit: This immediately made me to start imagining it as a sort of mythological Wild West with super powers.

This is only getting better and better. "Photon pistols at dawn..."


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DeathQuaker wrote:
MCCJawa wrote:
If they were snapped back, then why did they fade away to dust and not just use some other effect?

Because with the reality stone you can make it look and feel however you want, and there's a poetic justice to it, and Stark's a poetic justice sort of guy.... and thus...

Quote:
And Tony...well after the crap Thanos did, Tony is certainly going to end him rather than send him back to his time.

....AND being a better a!$%+@%, Tony knows (by this theory, which is not my own) he is sending Thanos back to only ultimately, always have his goals subverted (by Bruce's first snap) is far a sweeter revenge than just ending him.

Also that way it creates one less branch timeline which as someone who understands the consequences of mucking around with quantum physics, he might try to do. 6 years older Tony seems to have a much better grasp of consequences than his younger self.

If he sends that Thanos back in time with the knowledge he will lose...than when he does get the gauntlet he is going to go forward with the revised plan of wiping everything out, not just half. Or making sure he individually goes and wipes out all the avengers one at a time without warning.

It just seems extra convoluted. And I don't think they really need to worry about a "conservation of realities", especially if they might be leaning into the multiverse in upcoming movies

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As discussed awhile back, he would send them back to the time they left with their minds wiped of what they had learned, including from Gamora. The Gauntlet has that capability.

I would also like to clarify/emphasize that this is a common fan theory out there, and I am simply sharing it, to note that it's hard to state in absolutes what really happened and how many timelines have been created.

And whether he wiped Thanos's forces out of existence or he just returned them to their timeline without the knowledge they needed to change things, past-Gamora was part of Thanos's forces. She's gone either way.

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