I want to build a shield and flail melee fighter, a bit inspired by the Conqueror class from For Honor. I also liked the idea of a having a dip as an arcane caster for RP reasons, and to have more options in and out of combat. This is for PFS and I don’t think this would go past level 4-5.
I was planning on taking two levels of slayer to get the shield slam early. And taking taking a level or two of siegebreaker fighter for the bull rush, overrun add ons. So a kind of bashy, tanky, somewhat brainy fighter who occasionally busts out a spell like Blade Lash or True Strike seemed fun to play, if not optimal.
Question is, what is the best caster dip?
I considered Bard Archaeologist or Arcane Duelist, but didn’t think the spell list was very complementary. I’m trying to figure out if I should go straight Magus, Skirnir, or perhaps Armored Battlemage. I’m also wondering if Quick Draw feat + Quickdraw shield is worth the feat when I want to cast or two-hand a weapon, or better just drop the shield/weapon? (Can a Skirnir cast with a shield and weapon in each hand?)
Current build thoughts:
Human
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8
Slayer 1: Power Attack; Quick draw (?)
Magus 1: Artful dodge (for TWF via Int)
Slayer 2: Shield Slam
Siegebreaker Fighter 1: TWF; Improved overrun
Siegebreaker 2
Do you plan on using Studied Target frequently? If not, Ranger is actually the better dip as you'll get a favored enemy and the ability to use wands of Ranger spells, and there are a few decent ones.
Skirnir is not a good archetype at lower levels. It is clear you can cast with a shield, but ONLY if your other hand is unoccupied until level 8 (and even then you'll lose the AC bonus, which would defeat the purpose of having the shield). After level 8 you can have a weapon in one hand and a buckler in the other with no problem. Armored Battlemage is arguably a trap as you get neither weapon enhancement nor Spell Combat, which arguably you will want.
The arguable problem with the Magus dip is: You'll get two spells per day (1 if you go Skirnir), but unless you take Armored Battlemage you can only cast in light armor (and no archetype will let you wield a shield as well at low-levels). You already mentioned Quick Draw, but--
Where's Improved Shield Bash? What's the point of that TWF attack if you're giving up your shield bonus to AC? Artful Dodge is actually gained at level 3 and Improved Overrun would have to be at level 5.
This means two things: You're either forgoing your shield bonus the entire time you're TWFing, or you have to give up Improved Overrun, meaning you're only getting the full benefits of this setup at the final level. You're also down 1 BAB and only up in will saves (which I admit is somewhat useful).
Only throwing this all out so you can have better insight into your build and where it might cause problems.
May I make a different suggestion since clearly you're just going for flavor? Take a dip into Wizard instead...because True Strike doesn't have somatic components! That's right, cast it in full plate with a shield and flail, no problem whatsoever! You'll give up another 1 average HP, but you gain some extra class skills, the ability to use scrolls and wands from a bigger list of spells, and you can get a familiar which can give you some nice boosts or an arcane bond which gives you another casting of a spell per day.
If you are using the Slayer chassis, an excellent single level Arcane dip is the Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer.
This gives you Martial Flexibility.
With Martial Flexibility, you can pick up the Seething Hatred feat, which will double the damage bonus you get from the Slayer Studied Target class feature.
I know it's not quite what you asked, but how would you feel about INT-based Psychic casting? I present to you THE OCCULTIST
(EDIT: This got long so I put it in spoilers =P )
Spoiler:
Psychic casters don't care about somatic components so you can cast in any armour and don't need a free hand (and can even cast when paralyzed). You'll only have 2 cantrips and 2 first level spells known, but you'll be able to use wands for spells on those Implement lists (The best place for the spell list is HERE at the bottom of the page).
A one level dip gets you 2 implements (magic schools), as well as buffing your Will save. You'll also get a pool of "Mental Focus" equal to your Occultist level + your intelligence modifier (in this case INT+1). This can be used to power spell-like abilities, and as long as you don't spend all of your Mental Focus you get a "Resonant Power" (An always-on buff).
The premier option for a melee Occultist is the TRANSMUTATION IMPLEMENT. The base Focus Power is Legacy Weapon (gives your weapon a +1 Enhancement for 1 minute). At low levels this isn't great, but once you upgrade your weapon you can add ANY +1 equivalent enchantment to your weapon for a standard action.
The stand out here is Bane Weapon. a floating +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage to a group of enemies is a huge buff to any martial character. Ghost Touch, Flaming, Quenching and a few others are really great in the right circumstance as well.
On top of that you get a free +2 Enhancement bonus to one physical ability score that you can change each day (that will last until you've spent the last point of Mental Focus you invested in your Transmutation Implement). This won't stack with your Belt of STR (or DEX if you go that way), but it will likely get you access to a +2 "belt" early, and when you get an actual stat-belt you can put this in CON.
EDIT: You only get the Resonant Power if you have at least 3 points of Mental Focus invested in your Transmutation Implement. This means if you're going a 1 level dip you want at least 14 INT.
You get a second Implement (which will get you access to another "school" of wands), and another resonant power. I don't think any of the others are as good for a one level dip, but there might be something good for low levels that you like. Finally you get access to 1 Focus Power of your choice taken from the list of one of the Implements you chose. This will have to be one of the Focus Powers available at first level, so likely won't be super powerful. My pick is "Sudden Speed" from the Transmutation Implement - not super powerful, but useful enough at any level when you need it.
TLDR: For a 1 level dip in Occultist you get a "floating" Bane enchantment for a few minutes per day and a free +2 STR/DEX/CON belt. You also get access to a couple of spells (that you can cast in armour with your hands full), and a host of useful wands. This will basically cost you 1 BAB, and will delay everything Fighter related by 1 level.
If you wanted to go for a 2 level dip ...
Spoiler:
Starting at 2nd level you get access to the TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR PANOPLY (Panoplies are basically Implements with prerequisites). I'll assume you chose Transmutation as one of your first Implements, so all you have to do is pick ABJURATION as your other first level Implement and then take Trappings of the Warrior as your second level "Implement".
The Base Focus Power (Combat Trick) is to expensive to be really useful, and the other Focus Powers would cost you a feat (and really aren't useful enough without a bigger Mental Focus Pool). You're coming here for 1 reason and 1 reason only, the Resonant Power.
Martial Skill (Ex) wrote:
When wielding the weapon used as the panoply’s associated implement, you treat your base attack bonus as though it were 1 point higher for every 4 points of total mental focus invested in all of the associated implements, to a maximum base attack bonus equal to your occultist level. This increase can grant you additional attacks when using the full attack action (for example, a 12th-level occultist with 12 points of mental focus invested among the associated implements would be treated as having a base attack bonus of +11, with iterative attacks at a base attack bonus of +6 and +1).
This gives you back your full BAB. You only need to invest 4 points since you've only lost 1 BAB
TLDR: For a 2 level dip you get access to a few spells per day and wands (all from the Transmutation and Abjuration lists). You get access to Legacy Weapon and the free stat "belt", and keep your full BAB. Your Will save goes up by 3, and you get some nice secondary spell-like abilities that you can use in a pinch. As a side note this second level also gives you the ability to automatically identify any item you hold (takes 1 minute, will only find curses on low level items) and gives you a +1 to UMD.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
GeneralSleen wrote:
Question is, what is the best caster dip?
I considered Bard Archaeologist or Arcane Duelist, but didn’t think the spell list was very complementary. I’m trying to figure out if I should go straight Magus, Skirnir, or perhaps Armored Battlemage. I’m also wondering if Quick Draw feat + Quickdraw shield is worth the feat when I want to cast or two-hand a weapon, or better just drop the shield/weapon? (Can a Skirnir cast with a shield and weapon in each hand?)
IMO, spell warrior skald would give the best immediate benefit through the Enhance Weapons weapon song: a magical +1 to all weapons of allies within 60 ft (and a character counts as their own ally), instead of just one. And once the character has actual magic weapons, that +1 can actually be any one of the following +1 equivalent weapon abilities: defending, distance, flaming, frost, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, or seeking.
As far as Quick Draw and a quickdraw light shield go, for a TWF character it makes a lot of sense for action economy reasons.
Downside MrCharisma is in pfs TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR PANOPLY is banned. Sadly that would probably make the occultist more popular.
A druid nature fang could take ranger combat at level 4 and you could be a tanky full caster..but then any divine could do that in one way or another and you want arcane..
Another way is go full slayer and just up your umd to pull out wands on demand..I know not what you are thinking but it is a really nice route. A tank slayer is a thing of beauty. Studied and sneak attack with a weapon and shield and the damage keeps adding up. I would only pick up power attack for if you need to choke up on your main...taking a -1 penalty for +1 gain is not worth it.
Biggest issue you will run into is that dex 12..most casters will only let you get away with light armor and that dex will hurt.
Downside MrCharisma is in pfs TRAPPINGS OF THE WARRIOR PANOPLY is banned. Sadly that would probably make the occultist more popular.
Totally missed that this was for PFS, so good point. You can ignore the second half of my post (as you can see ekibus you've got me thinking abkut this)
If you are going fighter all you need to cast spells is the Shielded Mage feat, granted you would also need Shield Focus.
The number of feats you have listed is wrong. You get 3 from lv, 1 from human, and 1 from Slayer. Siegebreaker Fighter gets no bonus feat at lv 1 & 2.
So feats choices would be:
1: Shield Focus, I. Shield Bash
2: Shield Slam (Slayer)
3: Artful Dodge
5: Shielded Mage
He still has to deal with armor ASF if he plans on wearing armor (and if he doesn't, his AC is going to be pretty low).
Thanks for pointing out that Siege Siegebreaker doesn't give a level 1 bonus feat Temperans, since that means the entire build is jeopardized. He can't take TWF until he takes Artful Dodge, and with his current stats he can't take TWF until level 5, since he only has sufficient INT at level 4. Dropping CHA to 7 lets him put INT at 15 from the start and then he can bump CHA back to 8 at level 4. That would let him do
L1: Artful Dodge and TWF
L2: Shield Slam (yes, for two levels you'll give up your shield bonus to make that attack, but oh well)
L3: I. Shield Bash
As you can see, you only get Power Attack before level 5 (pretty late) if you take levels in regular Fighter instead of Siegebreaker.
Where's Improved Shield Bash? What's the point of that TWF attack if you're giving up your shield bonus to AC? Artful Dodge is actually gained at level 3 and Improved Overrun would have to be at level 5.
The OP's plan is to take Shield Slam through a Slayer (Ranger) Bonus Feat, relieving General Sleen of the need to take Improved Shield Bash. That being said, I agree that it is a real shame to lose your Shield Bonus to AC, and it might be worth it to take ISB anyway.
I have a Shield Bashing build that uses the Thunder and Fang Feat. That's Earthbreaker and Shield instead of Flail and Shield. That Feat also allows you to Shield Bash with the Klar and still keep your Shield Bonus to AC even if you don't take ISB.
The caster dip I do for that build is Inquisitor, and that is my recommendation to the OP. I know that Inquisitor is a Divine Spellcaster and not an Arcane one, but hear me out: at Level 3, Inquisitors get a Bonus Teamwork Feat and the Solo Tactics Class Ability that allows you to use your Teamwork Feat as if your allies had the feat, too. General Sleen is planning on doing a lot of Bull Rushing, so I guess they are going to take Greater Bull Rush and maybe Greater Overrun? Those Feats grant Attacks of Opportunity to Allies. So Take Paired Opportunist via 3 levels in Inquisitor, and you get to take Attacks of Opportunity along with all your allies! Take 2 more levels in Inquisitor, and you get Bane. If you keep triggering AoOs off your Shield Slam, your Shield is definitely the thing to put Bane on, so you can loop Attacks of Opportunity with Flanking buddies for as long as your Combat Reflexes last, doing 2d6 damage with every hit.
GeneralSleen wrote:
I want to build a shield and flail melee fighter
So, the neat thing about Flail is that it has special abilities. It is a Trip Weapon, and it gives a +2 on Disarm attempts. If I were using a Flail, I probably would not be Shield Bashing as much as I'd be Tripping and Disarming before I'd be Bull Rushing. I'd take Combat Reflexes, because Attacking while Disarmed and Getting Up from Prone both Provoke Attacks of Opportunity. Having an Attack of Opportunity Build, I'd consider using a Heavy Flail instead of Flail and Shield, since bigger weapons do more damage, and so if your number of attacks is determined by Dex through CR and AoOs, the bigger the weapon the better.
With all that in mind, maybe Paladin with the Holy Tactician Archetype is better than Inquisitor: if you are getting AoOs through Trip and Disarm, then you should really give your Allies Paired Opportunist and give them the AoO's you are getting. Also, if you aren't using a Shield, you should consider heavier armor, the kind you can't sleep in, so the Swift Girding Spell is your friend. First Level Spell Wands like Swift Girding, Cure Light Wounds, and Lead Blades are easy to get in PFS. Also, because of that, I recommend Ranger over Slayer. I recommend an eventual dip in Living Monolith to get Enlarge Person as a Swift Action SLA. Your Light Flail does 1d8. Lead Blades will up that to a base 2d6. Enlarge Person will up that to 3d6. Take Vital Strike, and now it's 6d6 or 6d8 if you were using a Heavy Flail: pretty sweet. Also, you are thinking in terms of Combat Maneuvers, so how about a +2 Size Bonus and a +2 Strength for Enlarge Person? You might even work your way up to Righteous Might.
GeneralSleen wrote:
I also liked the idea of a having a dip as an arcane caster
Not per se a caster, but it is arcane, you might consider Alchemist. It's full of self-buffing things, Mutagen bonuses stack with most spells' such as Monstrous Physique, which you might use to grow 2 sizes instead of 1.
I'm not sure if it's PFS legal or not, but the older version of enlightened bloodrager is an awesome dip for a martial character. Rage as if you were a barbarian, item use for the bloodrager and druid lists up to level 4 plus you get 2 cantrips from the wizard and druid lists you can cast in medium armor without ASF. Sheilds are still a problem, but you get all of that without losing BAB.
So another twist you could look at is taking one of the other occult classes since their spells suffer no arcane spell check. Spiritualist would give you a nice mix bag of utility/divine spells and a cool spirit you might be able to use as a scout..with it being wis focused you would probably want/need a higher wis. which is needed imo.
Now I'm sure people will disagree but really you just need twf..the further you go down the tree the greater the penalties and less reward.
Thanks everyone -- really good ideas both for mechanics and this helped hone in on RP ideas. I like the notion of this character being a failed caster. Not charming enough to be a proper bard, or too clumsy to be a proper wizard and can only reliably pull off non-somatic spells. Magic stuff is mostly to be helpful in out of combat situations. Also thinking it makes more sense to get Improved Trip at 1 and grab TWF instead of Shield Slam at Slayer/Ranger 2.
