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Cant Really Decide for my next build! FML

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Alesander

Apr 21, 2019, 02:10 am

Hi! Struggeling big time with finding my next build

I have been a big time into Warpriest Sacred Fist.
Becuse I am tired of having low Touch AC , I really wanted to be able to withstand those pesky mages sorcerers and spellcasters.
At first it looked really cool with domain abilities and having my shit based off Wizdom I thought a combo with compulsion spells, Command etc, great for RolePlaying.

We are playing a campaign where we are 3 players trying to become part of the underworlds bandit gangs in our major city. All Evil characters finding mutual benefits and more opportunities by cooperating with each other.

Theme of my build, I want to many things at the same time.

I want my character to be strong in battle, be able to cast high DC compulsion effects for great Power to Roleplay and be the sneaky nasty type!

However looking at my warpriest at lvl 6 my bab sucks, my flurry sucks (based off my bab not character level)

Iv spent much time looking at dips for say cleric, and wanted to go bad touch trough domain strike, would be cool with strong unarmed combat.

And luck domain to be a buffer and increase odds of great roles in combat and in RP aspects.

I thought about a Scythe build for flavor with an undead theme, The undead domain power would allow me to heal from negative energy, paired with alternative channeling for 50% increase in healing to undead. So pretty decent healing, however as 1 lvl dip in cleric the effect only lasts 1 round, so have to wait til lvl 11 to quick channel. So i can use the ability then heal my selfe. However a sacred priest has very few feats.
Growth domain to become large as swift action in combat would help my low bab, and thought with vicoius stomp it would be cool as a more trip build.

So my thoughts are everywhere, and I have no idea where to go atm.
I have multiclassed before a lot, and Its annoying becuse you get many abilties but all ends up a bit useless.

So I need to focus.

What I want the most, is High Touch AC and power to influence great In roleplay, i think.

Or a really powerfull debuffer in close combat!

Pure battle Cleric?
a nasy witch with her hair to deliver touch attacks?

I want to be a nasty character that people should be afraid to meet 1 vs 1 .

avr	Apr 21, 2019, 05:23 am

A cleric with the madness domain can be pretty good as a bad touch build. A witch with the ashiftah archetype and hex strike can be similarly good. Are you starting at level 6?

DeathlessOne

Apr 21, 2019, 09:18 am

Hmm.. I could put something together that could fit into a number of those roles, but it depends on what level you start at, and how far you are willing to follow me into the rabbit hole (and shucking the normal assumptions). What power level is your table playing at? More precisely, is your game a weapons race against the GM or does your table stick to gameplay that leaves the CR system relevant?

Scott Wilhelm

Apr 21, 2019, 09:33 am

So, one way to get a higher touch AC is to just play a Monk.

The Trickery Cleric Domain allows you to cast Mirror Image as a Spell-like Ability. That gives you a whole new layer of protection above and beyond AC.

The Chaos Domain accomplishes this, too. that touch of chaos thing forces your opponent to roll twice and take the worse result.

You should be able to use your Cleric Spells to give yourself a higher Touch AC and/or give yourself more layers of defense.

Entropic Shield lets you enjoy a 20% Miss Chance. That could be just the thing for those Ranged Touch Attacks.

If you have Darkvision and your opponents don't, you can cast Darkness.

If you have Blindsight or something, you can cast something like Fog Cloud or Blow a Horn of Fog or uncap an Eversmoking Bottle, giving yourself a 50% Miss Chance.

Infernal Healing gives you Fast Healing, another layer of defense.

Protection from Evil (or good, or whatever) gives you a +2 bonus to your Touch AC. So does Shield of Faith. So does Cat's Grace (+4Dex)

Stone Shield gives you Cover.

Defending Bone gives you DR.

Resist Energy give you Energy Resistance.

There are other things.

I am Nemesis

Apr 21, 2019, 09:55 am

while not a full caster combo- this is a oldie but an ass-kicker. there is A LOT of information here that i didn't have time to break into small byte size pieces;

Way of the Angry Bear (Monk (Sensei) / Druid (?):

2d10 (monk unarmed strike) -> 6d8 (Huge Wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong Jaw)per unarmed strike.

Sensei allows you to use your wisdom for to hit, CMD and CMB and of course as a monk it adds to your AC, ki points and will saves and as a druid will add to your spells. Wild shaping will help damage (+str) and survivability (+con) (and of course being huge doesn't hurt your CMB and CMD for maneuvers)

So I have the following questions before I start working on a build:

1.) What archetypes are best for this kind of druid?
2.) Ditto domains if you can fit domains in?
3.) How many levels of Monk and Druid should you have? You need at least 9 druid to get strong jaw and at least 2 monk to get your wisdom to hit.

And what do people in general think of this build, it looks to blossom fairly quickly, and with pounce the damage could add up nicely.

Bear Shaman and Strength domain should be quite good.

There's a feat in Ultimate Combat (iirc) that allows you to flurry with natural attacks. You will want this feat, if you go half or higher in monk levels.

So the following is a nice combo:
2d10 (monk unarmed strike) -> 6d8 (Huge Wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong Jaw)per unarmed strike.

So I have the following questions before I start working on a build:

And what do people in general think of this build, it looks to blossom fairly quickly, and with pounce the damage could add up nicely.

I'm not sure that unarmed strike damage would affect wildshaped natural attacks.

Feral Combat Training (Combat)

You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

So, this would require you to also have Weapon Focus: Bite, Claw, etc. For each natural attack you wanted to flurry, get unarmed damage and use Ki strike with...

Feral Combat allows you to use natural attacks for unarmed combat attacks.
Without it, you may make natural attacks, but would not do anything from your monk levels with the claw/claw/bite routine.
It's one or the other.
It requires weapon focus in the natural attack and feral combat in the natural attack before using monk stuff with natural attacks.
Taking feral combat can open up some fun effects when using combat styles, though.

Feral Combat:
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.

Natural attacks are actually probably not going to be a super major part of the build. They aren't affected by the Sensei's add wisdom to hit ability (and this character isn't going to have a str as high as his wisdom).

It's going to be kung fu (unarmed strike) all the way, with the wild shape being easy access to huge size and strong jaw boosting it through the stratosphere.

Hmm, if I take the Monastic legacy feat, half my druid levels count as monk levels for unarmed strike damage, with a monk's robe, I can take ten levels of druid and still have full progression for unarmed strike (the base 2d10 listed above), any more and I cut into the damage.

Also, strong jaw is a druid 4 spell, so would be available to a 7th level druid, not 9th.

Edit: And it only effect natural attacks, which unarmed attacks are not.

Also, strong jaw is a druid 4 spell, so would be available to a 7th level druid, not 9th.

Ah, thats keen. So very early access to goodies (2 monk / 7 druid)

Edit: And it only effect natural attacks, which unarmed attacks are not.

Quote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A standard druid gets huge at 8th level, though the bear shaman would get huge at 6th.
Where does a huge bear come from?
Dire and grizzly are large in the beastiary and wild shape does not allow changes in size.

It doesn't specifically have to be a bear, I just named the thread that in humor. Anything that is huge form wild shape would work.
The different shaman archtypes require you pick a kind of animal. Maybe no archetype for this character, then.
I hear menhir savant is a good archetype, and there should be a huge dinosaur if I take the Saurian Shaman archetype.
Menhir savant gives you abundant step, which you'll get from monk.
The leyline stuff for boosting spell DCs is kinda nice.
Hmm, from the reading of feral combat training, it appears that this statement:

Quote:

indicates that you can apply the sensei's wisdom bonus to hit trick to it. Which is nice, but I'm possibly failing to see the application of spending two feats (WF and Feral combat training) to be really good at something that doesn't factor in addition to unarmed strikes in a full attack routine (it replaces unarmed strikes). Maybe bite or claw attacks would be worth it for the grab or rake riders.
Monk damage augments an unarmed strike. It raises it from 1d4 to the listed damage. I would think if you had this feat, and took the form of a huge animal, then you would do huge monk damage.
Monk damage augments an unarmed strike. It raises it from 1d4 to the listed damage. I would think if you had this feat, and took the form of a huge animal, then you would do huge monk damage.

Well, of course, thats the lynchpin of this build, that all animals also have unarmed strikes and that these unarmed strikes are affected normally by their size.

The point I was making in my prior post was that, yes I could make one of my natural attacks be based off wisdom (like a bite or a claw attack), but that attack would not benefit overly much, as it can only replace unarmed strikes in a full attack or be used for its riders (grab, rake).
As an aside, it looks like Saurian Shaman is coming out as a winner, mostly because of the Allosaurus, which is huge and has pounce.
Do the Saurian Shaman and the Menhir Savant mix? The Saurian Shaman changes something that the Menhir Savant replaces, so technically it should work, I suppose?
You mean doesn't change?
You can stack archetypes as long as they don't replace the same class features.

Wait, explain again why the 2nd level sensei ability to add Wis to hit doesn't function with the wild shaped form (provided you have feral combat)...

I read the sensei ability and read the feat. Seems cut and dry to me. The wisdom can be added to unarmed strikes; feral combat says that anything that augments your unarmed strikes also augment that natural weapon (claws for example).
He's agreeing it would work, but feels it wouldn't help his build as it would effect the natural attack, but not effect the flurry and unarmed attack.

My disagreement comes in the creature such as allosaurus having unarmed attacks at all.
My feeling would be that the animal would get natural attacks only, as humanoid martial arts training wouldn't allow a dinosaur or wolf to make unarmed attacks instead of natural attacks.
Improved unarmed combat allows an existing non-leathal attack to be leathal, and stronger in the case of the monk.

Which is why I mentioned the feral feat, as it fixes the gap and allows the unarmed feats to assist the natural attacks (which, if primary, are all full BAB).

Either way, this interpetation isn't mine to allow or disallow, but his GM's.
The sensei gives up flurry of blows for his "bardic performance" ability at 1st level, so that point is moot.

Kryzbyn: The feat Feral Combat Training basically allows the character to treat one natural attack (claws for example) as unarmed strikes. Things that modify unarmed strikes would thus modify the natural attacks. I'm not sure if you understood the feat or not, but if you did then I don't understand what your last post was about.
Mountain Druid.
It takes longer to pay off, but eventually you are a huge giant ALL the time. Your unarmed would be mighty.

I actually like this better for weapon users, because the generic polymorph rules state that when you change forms to a form similar to your own, your items do not meld but instead alter to fit you. SO, a normal sized axe becomes a huge axe etc.
@ Foghammer: I was speaking to the OP lumping natural attacks and unarmed strikes into the same basket. If he was not, then disregard.
I know what the feat does, I linked it above and suggested it :)
@ Foghammer: I was speaking to the OP lumping natural attacks and unarmed strikes into the same basket. If he was not, then disregard.
I know what the feat does, I linked it above and suggested it :)
Indeed. Carry on then. :D
My disagreement comes in the creature such as allosaurus having unarmed attacks at all.
My feeling would be that the animal would get natural attacks only, as humanoid martial arts training wouldn't allow a dinosaur or wolf to make unarmed attacks instead of natural attacks.

Not a fan of awakened animal Monks then I take it?

Anyway, by the time this character can wild shape, he/she will already be four levels into the druid class, thats more than enough time to adapt his/her style to fighting as an animal, he/she is not just jumping into it. (after all a lot of martial arts originate from copying and refining animal movements, why should not the process flow the other way?)

Quote:

Well, by RAW creatures do not have unarmed attacks, they have natural attacks. They are not one and the same.

This character isn't gaining an unarmed attack because he becomes a creature, he/she is getting one because they are a monk.

Also, you toss the word RAW around, but I haven't seen anything prohibiting an animal with a reasonable intelligence score (easily doable with the druid/ranger class or as a human with the right racial trait) taking the improved unarmed strike feat and fighting with skill instead of savagery.
Is Druid a must? A cleric of a nature god may work.
If you choose Urazra, you could take Crusader's Flurry, and flurry with a claw(or spiked gauntlet). Nab a Bear Pelt of the Bonebreaker(only 3,300gp) to polymorph into a Brown Bear and use your flurry while in Bear form. You will only need a single cleric level dip. You can also still use unarmed strikes while in Bear form.

Is Druid a must? A cleric of a nature god may work.
If you choose Urazra, you could take Crusader's Flurry, and flurry with a claw(or spiked gauntlet). Nab a Bear Pelt of the Bonebreaker(only 3,300gp) to polymorph into a Brown Bear and use your flurry while in Bear form. You will only need a single cleric level dip. You can also still use unarmed strikes while in Bear form.
Cleric would work too, and I was thinking about it, but its harder to pull size shennanigans with them. With druids, you get to be huge size at level 8 (level 6 if you're the right kind of shaman), whereas I don't think clerics can do anything similar. Also, strong jaw is a druid spell.

Simple damage calculation, lvl 10 character (3 monk (sensei) / 7 druid (Saurian Shaman)
1d10 unarmed strike damage (3 levels of monk + monk's robe + monastic legacy) -> 3d8 (allosaurus, large animal) -> 6d8 (strong jaw, two size increases).
Thats not bad for 10th level (two iterative attacks, more if you take two weapon fighting)
I'm leaning towards an even split of 10 monk/10 druid as the higher level druid spells aren't instilling a sense of "Must have them!" in me.

Its all a good idea though, prototype00. I don't have a lot more to add that hasn't already been said, though. Keeping my eye open for the full build thread.
Way of the Angry Bear 2: Bear Fisted Fighting! a.k.a. Is that Allosaurus doing Tai Chi? Comments and critiques please.

So following on from this thread: Where I did some brainstorming about how to build on the following combo:
2d10 (Monk max unarmed strike damage)-> 6d8 (Huge size due to wildshape) -> 12d8 (Strong jaw spell)
I've come up with the following build (and it's reasonably straightforward)

Monk(Sensei/Qinggong Monk)10 / Druid(Menhir Savant)10
Archetype choice wise, this character is a Sensei so that To Hit, AC, CMB, CMD, Ki Points, bonus spells per day, domain abilities and will save are all based on wisdom. Qinggong monk is so that I can do other things with my ki points and the Menhir Savant for the druid is just all round kick-ass.
I've taken 10 levels of druid beause this allows you to get full wild shape progression (with shaping focus) and also unarmed strike progression (with monastic legacy and a monk's robe)
I didn't pick the Saurian Shaman (though I very much would have liked to) because it delays my initial wildshape somewhat which makes feat slotting slightly awkward. A shame, because the domains for the Saurian Shaman were really good. Perhaps I'll put it in an alternate build.
So without further ado, here is the build:

Master Shaper Humberto Lopez
LN Human Monk(Sensei/Qinggong Monk)10/Druid(Menhir Savant)10
Stats:
(Hardcore Wisdom)
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 18 -> 20 (Human bonus stat boost)
Cha 7

(More balanced and survivable)
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16 -> 18 (Human bonus stat boost)
Cha 8

Traits:
Magical Knack (Druidic Magic, +2 CL up to character level), good for a multiclassed druid characters, makes my final CL 12 which is key for a lot of buffing spells)
Focused Mind (+2 to concentration checks, because as a combat character I'll need to make those eventually)

Feats:
Human: TWF
Monk 1: SF Conjuration
Monk 1 (Bonus): Dodge
Monk 3: Monastic Legacy
Monk 3 / Druid 2: Augment Summoning

5th level overview:
So for the first 5 levels, this character plays as a hard to hit combatant who can (with duid levels) summon some extra help onto the field to flank and provide tanking, nothing too special, but its only the start of the build. Query: can you TWF with unarmed strikes taking the place of both weapons? If not I'll have to switch that out for something else.

Monk 3 / Druid 4: Shaping Focus
Monk 3 / Druid 6: Natural Spell

10th level overview:
So with shaping focus (best feat ever for a multiclassed wildshape druid!), I'm basically back up to full wildshape progression, including number of uses per day (and he can become huge animals).

This character can now become huge and cast 4th level spells, which means Strong Jaw! As calculated from previous, this character does 6d8 damage per hit, which combined with TWF, is 18d8 possible damage on a charge (pounce from allosaurus). *Note, buy dexterity boosting equipment if possible, the hit to dex from wildshaping into a huge animal might take TWF away

Monk 4 / Druid 7: Planar Wild Shape
Monk 5 / Druid 8 : ITWF (or Wild speech, or Powerful Shape)
Monk 7 / Druid 8 : Vital Strike

15th level overview:
Planar Wild shape with

[spoiler=15th level overview]Planar wild shape is the real winner at this level. Since you're neutral you get to choose whether you want to become a celestial or fiendish creature. Basically you decide at this point whether you want to have DR 10 / good or evil. Which is gross, I can tell you. Do you think the archdemon is going to have a holy longsword prepped just for you? Also, if you want to forgo that you can just turn into a tendriculos and regenerate 10 HP per turn. Note of interest: For all that elementals are poo-poohed, they actually have a slightly better stat outlay than huge animals, if you want to use that ITWF you just picked up (your dex won't be as heavily penalized)

Monk 9 / Druid 8 : Improved Vital Strike
Monk 10 / Druid 8 (Monk bonus Feat): Medusa's Wrath
Monk 10 / Druid 9: Quicken Spell like ability (True Strike)

20th level overview:
So this was why I was spending feats on vital strike and improved vital strike (besides the obvious utility to someone who does 12d8 base damage.) With Quicken SLA (True Strike) from Qinggong monk, you can just walk up to someone and autohit for 36d8 damage three times per day, no questions asked. Thats on average 144 damage, though I'd get a dice rolling program at this point so you don't get lynched by fellow table-mates.

Medusa's wrath is great if you make your first hit in a full attack a stunning fist, thats two extra attacks at your highest attack bonus (8 attacks with haste, so 96d8 possible damage).

So there he is, 10th level druid buffing, full wild shape progression, full unarmed strike progression, great AC (Natural armor bonuses + Super high wis) and a 12d8 base attack will be sure to mess up anyones day. And this build is rather feat neutral as well, except for Monastic Legacy and Shaping Focus you can swap out feats for others you might like. Standouts include:

Power attack
Crane Style chain
Divine Interference
GTWF

Phew! I'd appreciate comments and ways I could improve the build please! :)

prototype00
So you decided not to go with Feral Combat Training?
I was thinking about it, for certain natural attacks that have good riders (like trip or grab), but it's two feats per natural attack. Just to get the allosaurus up to snuff, I have to take FCT for both it's bite and it's talons (whatever the heck those are, claws I suspect) and the moment I turn into an elemental (slams) thats 4 feats wasted.
Its a bit hard to turn into multiple forms and still maintain any coherency in the natural attacks you will be using. Better to stick to unarmed strikes for the damage.
You don't have to take it for all types of natural attacks. It would be effective to just take it for bite, for instance. There are many forms that have that type of natural attack that would fit well with the build. Like the Allosaurus for instance.

Also, what is the plan behind powerful shape? Are you going to be trampling a lot? Tripping? Grabbing? All of the above? I ask because I had thought the biggest point of the build was to push out damage which that feat doesn't help with much.
Having a number of favored shapes will help you with direction.

An unarmed strike is always considered light.
Pulled this from the Combat section of d20PFSRD on Two-Weapon Fighting, so it sounds like you can dual-wield unarmed strikes.
I really like the build concept. Is there a shape you can take that's not an Allosaurus that can still make this work?

You don't have to take it for all types of natural attacks. It would be effective to just take it for bite, for instance. There are many forms that have that type of natural attack that would fit well with the build. Like the Allosaurus for instance.

Quote:

Having a number of favored shapes will help you with direction.

The main forms for this build are Allosaurus (Huge Size and pounce), Dire Tiger (Large Size and pounce), Deionychus (Medium Size and pounce), Air Elemental (DR 5/-, fly (perfect), no penalty to dex, whirlwind) and Tendriculos (Regeneration).

Unfortunately even from this reduced selections, you still have bite and claw, slam and tentacle to Feral combat train. I suppose it can be done (and getting claw or bite for the allosaurus grab or the megatherium's trip would make this character a good control sort as well as a damage dealer, but feats would have to be replaced).

Quote:

Pulled this from the Combat section of d20PFSRD on Two-Weapon Fighting, so it sounds like you can dual-wield unarmed strikes.

I really like the build concept. Is there a shape you can take that's not an Allosaurus that can still make this work?

For general combat purposes, I favor the air elemental actually. Better stat boosts and fly make for a better combat experience. But of course, that is the beauty of using unarmed strikes, it works whatever you change into, just make sure its huge.
All of your main shapes aside from elemental have bite.

You're a melee build with a base of 10 strength, pouncing forms aren't going to help your DR that much.
You're dedicating feats to summoning spells when you're summoning first level monsters and the rest of your party is summoning 3rd level monsters.
IMO: Going Monk 4 / Druid 16 and having an actual strength score would be much better (going monk 3 / druid 17 would even net 9th level spells). If you really wanted to keep sensei you could, though I'd probably go master of many styles.

You're a melee build with a base of 10 strength, pouncing forms aren't going to help your DR that much.
Thats a bit much to say for a character that hits for three times as hard as the Tarrasque's bite (and probably much more than that for Mr T's other attacks). Besides, would you rather have 12d8 on a charge or 96d8 on a charge? (i.e. Poppycock, I say to you, Sir.)
You're dedicating feats to summoning spells when you're summoning first level monsters and the rest of your party is summoning 3rd level monsters.
The early levels where SF conjuration and augment summoning come in are hard to fill with anything truly worthwhile. I suppose I could put power attack and WF unarmed strike in there if nothing else to boost DPR.
IMO: Going Monk 4 / Druid 16 and having an actual strength score would be much better (going monk 3 / druid 17 would even net 9th level spells). If you really wanted to keep sensei you could, though I'd probably go master of many styles.
You could definitely build a strength version of this build, that would have a better DPR and versatility at mixing in natural attacks (but much less in the way of AC and saves), I kind of like the elegant simplicity of a one stat character, but do not gainsay the alternative.
About the distribution of levels, I did toy with alternative builds with more druid than Monk, but spellcasting is the only thing on the druid's side in that equation (as I've gotten all I've wanted out of wildshape by lvl 12). As there was nothing in those upper spell levels that was of direct help to my melee DPR, I chose to forgo them, though if you could provide a specific example of what I am missing then...?

Found the following pertinent text from the CRB related to polymorph effects:

CRB wrote:

Seems this build is hardly a slam dunk if you've got a restrictive GM. Really cool concept: Tai chi Tyrannosaur! Unfortunately, I think the above text is enough to kill it at many tables.

You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed.
Seems this build is hardly a slam dunk if you've got a restrictive GM. Really cool concept: Tai chi Tyrannosaur! Unfortunately, I think the above text is enough to kill it at many tables.
Quote:

A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.

The only form I've quoted above without at least one of the above appendages is the Tendriculos, and thats mostly for healing up after combat. So, what does the monk lose in allosaurus form that it had in human form to not be able to use unarmed strike?

Also, if you're worried, just wait until you can turn into an elemental, which can assume a humanoid enough shape for most DMs, I would suspect.

A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.

Also, if you're worried, just wait until you can turn into an elemental, which can assume a humanoid enough shape for most DMs, I would suspect.

prototype00

No, it's the fact that you lose the monk's class feature that grants you the 2d10 unarmed damage when you wildshape if the DM rules it so. Frankly, I could see this going either way. I can see arguments cropping up over whether the monk's improved damage comes from his inner spirit or his intense physical training. If the DM rules it's the former, then wildshape is a-ok. If the latter, then this build is out of luck.

If you're arguing that DMs have control over their games, then I have no argument with you.

If you're arguing that just by changing into a different form, you lose something essential for martial arts by RAW, then I have the point I posted previously, that by RAW, all the limbs required for the monk's unarmed strike are still present, post wildshape.

As I stated in the previous thread, so much of martial arts comes from emulating animals, its a tad hypocritical to then go and say that animals can't perform martial arts.

As for your last part about inner spirit vs intense physical training, I've seen no RAW rules that refer to either. So if a DM wants to refer to either to deny a monk's ability to use this trick, he is acting contra-RAW. Which, fair enough is his perogative, but I don't make it a habit to play with such DMs.

Have you considered the Guided weapon property on an Amulet of Mighty Fists (cost: 5000 gp to startup, you could get that pretty early) instead of that very painful 10 levels of sensei? That'll give you +Wis to attack and damage, though I'm not sure if it would interact...poorly... with forms with only 1 natural attack (which is functionally like being a 2H manufactured weapon for str mod and power attack). Solution would be avoiding forms with only 1 natural attack if so.

Monk 4 is enough to get Monastic Legacy, then you get a monk's belt, and at level 20 you have the unarmed damage of a level 17 monk.

Dropping Sensei like the bad habit that it is also means you can be a Master of Many Styles, since w/o Feral Combat Training, natural attacks and flurry don't mix well (read: at all) anyway.

Slightly tangential example:
For instance, let's say you had a class ability that granted +2 natural armour due to some form altering feature your class. Just because you wildshape into a stegosauraus (a naturally armoured creature) doesn't mean you get to keep your +2 natural armour from your class. It's quite likely the DM would say you lose that +2 natural armour as it a class

The definition of "based on form" is vague. We're told that "it should be obvious" but it's otherwise left up to the DM.

I'm speculating that the extra unarmed damage can easily be interpreted as being "based on form". In fact, I find it highly likely. If that's the case, the simple fact that you are wildshaping into an air elemental (a form with limbs) doesn't change the fact that you no longer have the hardened iron fists of a monk. You may well be able to make unarmed strikes as an air elemental, but they won't be enhanced by the monk's class feature, because you lost that class feature.

Monk's unarmed damage is based on your form. More specifically your size. It does not DEPEND upon form to work. Only to determine the dice size. There is a huge, massive, blatant difference between the two.

Likewise, a class feature that buffs your natural armor would work in any form, as long as it's not "setting" your natural armor (due to overlap in that case). Name one form where a class feature that increases your natural armor would not function. Please.
It's also not dependent on form.

Oh, is there any RAW on that point? As far as I can tell, there isn't. We're told that what does and doesn't depend on form "should be obvious". Otherwise, the DM has the final say. That's the only RAW on the matter. I don't find anything about the monk obvious on this point. For instance, what about the ability Diamond Body? Does that depend on form? What about Quivering Palm? My point is that I can see plausible arguments for just about every monk feature as "depending on form".

EDIT: As for class features with + natural armour, I'm thinking specifically of Dragon Disciple. Your skin is described as getting harder. Clearly an example of a class feature that "depends on form".

I love the Guided weapon property, but two things stop me from putting it right into builds. It's listed in a 3.5 era adventure path, and it seems slightly more powerful than the agile property.

Monk 4 is enough to get Monastic Legacy, then you get a monk's belt, and at level 20 you have the unarmed damage of a level 17 monk.

Dropping Sensei like the bad habit that it is also means you can be a Master of Many Styles, since w/o Feral Combat Training, natural attacks and flurry don't mix well (read: at all) anyway.

10 levels of Sensei is granted something that can be exchanged. You could pursue a strength build and drop it altogether. (Though a perverse part of me wants a least 10 monk levels so as to end up at 2d10 unarmed damage eventually, that one step (from 2d8-2d10) is worth 4d8 (8d8 -> 12d8) damage per hit in the long run.)

But yes, for a strength build (which I might attempt next), Master of many styles is a good stand in for Sensei, and you don't even have to take feral combat training because the MoMS doesn't have flurry of blows. Switch those natural attacks in with your attack routines as much as you like!

Oh, is there any RAW on that point? As far as I can tell, there isn't. We're told that what is and isn't based on form "should be obvious". Otherwise, the DM has the final say. That's the only RAW on the matter. I don't find anything about the monk obvious on this point. For instance, what about the ability Diamond Body? Is that based on form? What about Quivering Palm? My point is that I can see plausible arguments for just about every monk feature as being "based on form".

EDIT: As for class features with +natural armour, I'm thinking specifically of Dragon Disciple. Your skin is described as getting harder. Clearly an example of a class feature "based on form".

Dave, if you want to argue this, might I suggest making another thread? I personally am not a fan of it when build threads derail with I say-he says discussions with neither side being able to change the opinion of the other.

Slight nitpick, but aren't you using 2 magical traits, you can only have 1 trait of the same type.
Ah, you are quite correct. Well, Focused mind can be replaced with just about any other trait really, but Magical Knack is too good, in my opinion.

Hmm, plotting the strength version of this build based on a Master of Many Styles and druid.

The Janni Rush says that you do double unarmed damage at the end of a charge, if I have pounce, does this extend to every unarmed attack I take?

If so, Crane/Janni/Dragon could be a winning combination.

Hmm, plotting the strength version of this build based on a Master of Many Styles and druid.

The Janni Rush says that you do double unarmed damage at the end of a charge, if I have pounce, does this extend to every unarmed attack I take?

If so, Crane/Janni/Dragon could be a winning combination.

prototype00

Have you looked at Tiger Style? The base style feat sucks as does the 2nd one, IMO. But Tiger Pounce is awesome and is not restricted to only unarmed strikes. As a MoMS, you can just take the base Tiger Style feat as one of your odd level general feats, and then immediately grab Tiger Pounce as a bonus feat.

I'd probaby do some mix of Crane Style + Crane Wing + maybe Crane Riposte / Snake Style + Snake Fang / Dragon Style (alone is good; don't care for the other 2, though Dragon Ferocity is ok, I guess) / Tiger Style + Tiger Pounce. I say "some mix of" because if you're multiclassing you won't be able to use 4 simultaneously.

But if the game allows for it, Guided AoMF is the way to go, I think. If not, you can get pretty good str from wild shape, a str build isn't so tough to do. Just be an Oread or some other +Str/Wis race and start w/ 18 in str after race and bump it every 4th level. You'll have a good str mod that way, w/o spending too much point buy.

Two points:
1) I don't know if you can take SF: Conjuration before you even have caster levels.

2) The character sucks for the first 3 levels. Basically dead weight to any party. Hell I will even argue that it is basically dead weight until level 7. So basically it is a decent build if you start at 10+ levels, however it is a very painful build to play from 1, assuming you survive it will be nearly half the game before you can even fight in wild shape forms.

Based on the above I think the build is not viable.

The moment this build gets wildshape (lvl 7) it graduates to top tier damage for that level. So, I also take issue with your statement that this build is only good if you start play at 10+. Did you miss the effect of shaping focus, which basically puts me on par with a druid of the same level, are you going to tell me that they are dead weight until 7th level as well?

In any event, I shall probably post a strength build soon, which I suppose should be more to your liking, being a monk traditionalist and favoring damage dealing as you do.

Quote: Why not Unarmed Fighter instead of monk?
IIRC, the unarmed fighter's unarmed strike doesn't actually increase in damage. There is much to be said for full BaB I suppose, but I really did want the 12d8 in the

Hmm, before I go too far in my MoMS/Druid build, can you sub in natural attacks freely into a full attack sequence? I.e. if I normally have two claw natural weapons could I use them in iterative combat (not flurry of blows).

prototype00

If you mean iterative attacks from BaB, then no, you can't take natural attacks as part of that series of attacks.

If you're an 8th level monk with BaB +6/+1 and two claw attacks, you could:

A) Attack with two unarmed strikes at +6/+1
B) Attack with two claws at +6/+6
C) Attack with two unarmed strikes AND two claw attacks at +6/+1/+1/+1 (claws counting as secondary natural weapons)
D) Flurry of Blows with only unarmed strikes at +6/+6/+1/+1

You couldn't sub in claw attacks as part of A.

...I kinda lost track of where I was going. Does that even answer the question? :)
If you mean iterative attacks from BaB, then no, you can't take natural attacks as part of that series of attacks.

If you're an 8th level monk with BaB +6/+1 and two claw attacks, you could:

You couldn't sub in claw attacks as part of A.

...I kinda lost track of where I was going. Does that even answer the question? :)

Yeah, so I was asking if A was possible with 2 claws, so its not.

But I am blown away that C is possible still. Yeah, according to the wording you just can't use natural attacks as part as a flurry, but you can tack it onto a full attack sequence as secondary natural weapons (at -2 with multiattack).

Man, that just makes the strength build better and better (since you can sub them in at near full attack bonus.) I don't know how I feel about that.
Is there anything stopping you in the rulebook from taking it?

Quote:

Based on the above I think the build is not viable.

I question your definition of suck, if a max statted Sensei (who is based off wisdom) is considered to be a bad choice. While said character will not contribute as much damage to the party, they are very hard to hit. They are useful also for the advice skill of the sensei, is the bard also a dead weight? Quite the opposite, I would expect.
prototype00
Bard is not dead weight because a bard, even if built not for combat is still contributing with spells. Your monk sensei can only inspire courage for levels + wis rounds, which if you are lucky might last for 2 fights. Certainly not an all day thing compared to a bard, I think if a bard isn't built for comabt would at least have lingering performance or at a minimum Maestro of the Society trait. As for skills he is not contributing near what a bard would be contributing towards skills.

So just comparing it to a non combat bard, your sensei monk can't guarantee full inspire courage buffs all day. Contributing 2 less skills and without versatile perfomance, also no spells. This is sucky already.

At level 7 you finally have wild shape. However your BAB is only a +5, you have no strength and without feral combat training you are not applying wisdom to your natural weapons on attack rolls. All you are doing is a single attack with unarm strike, dealing what 2d6 damage per hit. That is pretty bad, finally if you get to a level where WBL allows it you can get a guided Amulet of Mighty fists (I only guess this was level 10, it can be level 8 or 9). So you are finally contributing.

Bard is not dead weight because a bard, even if built not for combat is still contributing with spells. Your monk sensei can only inspire courage for levels + wis rounds, which if you are lucky might last for 2 fights. Certainly not an all day thing compared to a bard, I think if a bard isn't built for comabt would at least have lingering performance or at a minimum Maestro of the Society trait. As for skills he is not contributing near what a bard would be contributing towards skills.

Point taken, point taken. *Though I question every monk having Maestro of the Society. What every successful monk is a pathfinder?* So this character comes into his own only at level 8 then, is what you're trying to say?

What, if anything, would you do to improve the situation? Saying something sucks is all well and good if you want to be a troll, but I would appreciate something constructive. *Though if you just want to be a Troll, thats fine as well, where is that report post button...?*

prototype00

You need to consider a strength build. With maybe another monk archetype, Master of Maneuvers as mentioned by above posters can potentially work. However, a monk/druid isn't a combo I have put much thought in, I don't think the synergy is there. Maybe a monk dip might work, I don't think a full multiclass monk/druid works.

It is easy to critique and don't take any offense, I think what you are trying to do is cool and is a good contribution to the community.

Sorry was a bit prickly there, I really shouldn't take criticism of the build quite so hard. I realize this character might have a hard time of it, especially in the early levels before they get wildshape.

What I was discussing with the rest was a Master of Many Styles build based on strength. That way you get to use your natural attacks at their full efficacy while having a full unarmed attack sequence as well, which the previous character cannot really do effectively.

The styles I'm looking at are Dragon (adds to unarmed damage), Janni (double unarmed damage on a charge), Crane (damage mitigation) and possibly Tiger (power attack penalties to AC instead of to hit) (though I'm only able to merge 3 styles by level 10, so some combination of the above dropping one). If I really wanted to stack the damage, I'd probably go Dragon, Tiger and Janni, though Crane, Dragon and Tiger does fit the nature theme better.

Maneuver master I hadn't really thought about, but this character really doesn't need to go big into maneuvers to do well.

I'm still working out the balance of monk vs druid levels to give the best result, I still favor half/half, but a dip isn't too bad an idea as well (but at high levels, you miss out on a lot of damage).

Yeah, that's what I've been trying to advise...have as little monk as possible. The Monk's Belt does exist, and if you're willing to forfeit that final damage die increase, a few monk levels (I' sticking with 4 as the ideal; you need 3 for the feat anyway; gives you true strike via Qinggong Monk) + belt + monastic legacy basically gets you there. Because druid levels are so much better than monk levels....
Yeah now that you have me thinking about it, maybe start with druid levels first. Get to level 4 so you can wildshape, then take monk levels. I think a master of many styles can be good because you can pick up the styles feat quick and fast.

I recommended the maneuver master because wild shape can get you some auto manueuvers, like trip and grab, as part of a normal attack, so if you pick up the maneuver feats you can really max out the free maneuvers you get from certain wild shapes. This also synergizes well with powerful shape.

Also you may want to look into the planar shape feat because that can really up your damage and defense potential in wild shape.

Because druid levels are so much better than monk levels....

I'm torn here, basically wildshape is as good as it's going to get at 12th level (which Shaping focus covers nicely as an 8th level multiclass druid) so all we're talking about here is spells (which granted, I'm an old CharOP hand so I know that you don't just dump caster levels).

But tell me Stream, is there any spell at higher levels than 5 that really boosts the damage output of this build? I looked but nothing really caught my eye, it's all just blasty stuff and that isn't what this build is about.

With a 10th level monk, I get +4d8 unarmed damge per hit, extra feats, and for a MoMS, the ability to merge three styles into one as a swift action (lvl8).

Well, if nothing else, CL 16 (in my sample build) is a +4 from Greater Magic Fang, freeing you up to put nothing but special properties on the amulet of mighty fists. CL also affects Barkskin and other buffs.

It is the spells I'm mostly thinking of. I guess if sheer melee DPR is all you care about, monk might be better for you. It just feels so wrong saying that. :)

I do think you should get in at least some druid first if doing MoMS. You want ot try and AVOID taking the initial "style feats" as monk bonus feats as much as possible, IMO. The ability to skip all pre-reqs for the other 2 feats in the chain (in particular, the 3rd feat in some chains is very nice but the 2nd is stinky, like Snake and Tiger) is a big boon to forfeit. So, for Crane Wing, for example, my typical suggestion is to enter your MoMS dip at ECL 3 or any odd level thereafter. That way you can get Dodge feat in advance (required for Crane Style), and then upon gaining the monk level and IUS, taking Crane Style as your level 3 feat and Crane Wing as your bonus feat.

Try spacing out the bonus feat levels in your progression to maximize this sort of thing. You only get 4 bonus feats if doing a 10/10 split, so plan them wisely.

You're selling yourself short here, Stream. With your suggested dip you can get CL 20 (+1 menhir savant, +2 magical knack, +1 ioun stone of appropriate color. ;)

Quote:

It is the spells I'm mostly thinking of. I guess if sheer melee DPR is all you care about, monk might be better for you. It just feels so wrong saying that. :)

I know, right? This build has thrown established knowledge on its head!(no, not really). Were there any must have spells from those levels Stream? I've always thought that higher level druid spells lacked a bit of oomph.

Quote:

Try spacing out the bonus feat levels in your progression to maximize this sort of thing. You only get 4 bonus feats if doing a 10/10 split, so plan them wisely.

That was the plan, take a couple of druid levels first to make the bonus feats count for more.

prototype00

Edit: I'm slightly worried about the number of spells a strength based character will end up with. I would get about 2 extra castings of Strong Jaw with a wis based character (5 all together) but with a strength based one, not so much. Might invest in a pearl of power or two I suppose.

Way of the Angry Bear 2: Bear Fisted Fighting! a.k.a. Is that Allosaurus doing Tai Chi? Comments and critiques please.

With a strength build for some of the easier encounters in a day you probably won't even need strong jaw.

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The Manyfaced One

So here is the strength counterpart to my wisdom build at the beginning:

LN Human Monk(MoMS,Qinggong) 10/Druid(Menhir Savant) 10

Stats:

Str 16 -> 18 (Human Stat Boost)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Traits:

Magical Knack (+2 CL up to character level)
Reactionary (+2 initiative)

Feats:

Human: Dodge
Monk 1: Crane Style
Monk 1 (Bonus): Crane Wing, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Monk 1 / Druid 2: Dragon Style
Monk 2 / Druid 2: Dragon Ferocity
Monk 3 / Druid 2: Monastic Legacy

Level 5 Overview:
Master of Many styles makes many early level shennanigans possible, such as *I can't be hit* at level 1 (due to crane wing and most enemies only having one melee attack at these levels). Also, *I do 1d8 + 15 damage at 5th level with my one unarmed strike attack.*

Monk 3 / Druid 4: Shaping Focus
Monk 3 / Druid 6: Natural Spell

Level 10 Overview:
So much the same as the previous build, you can now access huge animal forms and with Druid 7, you can cast strong Jaw. And since you are a strength based character, your to hit is better than the previous build and your natural attacks are of course based off your strength as well. It doesn't hurt that they are tacked on to the end of your full attack routine as secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty.

Monk 4 / Druid 7: Planar Wild Shape
Monk 6 / Druid 7: Janni Style
Monk 6 (Bonus) / Druid 7: Janni Rush
Monk 8 / Druid 7: Power Attack

Level 15 Overview:
I've mixed things up a bit over here, keeping druid at 7 so that I can get to Monk 8 quickly (lets you meld three styles at once) as well as taking Janni Style/Janni Rush as soon as possible. Basically this style let you turn most things into red mist when you pounce. Unarmed damage at this level is 2d6, so when wildshaped into a huge form and having cast strong jaw, thats a base of 8d6 damage. Impressive, but when you charge with Janni Style/Janni Rush active, you do 16d6 damage per unarmed attack. Whip out those dice rolling program kids!

Monk 10 / Druid 7: Tiger Style
Monk 10 (Bonus) / Druid 7: Tiger Pounce
Monk 10 / Druid 9: Multiattack

Level 20 Overview:
So this is why I took power attack at the last level, Tiger style basically means that I can add +8 damage to all my attacks. Its a bit of *as if I need it* at this point, but more damage is always nice to have. These feats could probably be replaced with any other style feats though without the build really feeling it.

So there it is, its late, so I'll do the damage calculations tomorrow, but the public demanded it, so here it is, Tai Chi Allosaurus, strength version. Pouncing for 24d8 damage per unarmed strike, massive strength bonus to unarmed damage and quite effective from level 1, if I do say so myself.

prototype00

Edit: I might try to rejigger things so I can fit it TWF and ITWF, with 24d8 damage per hit, you want as many of those as possible.

I like this build solid at low levels, other than AC there isn't much weakness to this build. Ah well that is why you cast barkskin, and get a wand of mage armor.

Well done.

Just noticed that the Gorilla aspect from animal aspects increases your unarmed damage by one size without actually increasing your size.

Doesn't stack with wildshape unfortunately, (both polymorph effects) but should stack with enlarge person from the growth domain for a mini (comparatively) boost to your unarmed damage.

prototype00

Note: Playing around with this character in Herolab, its worth investing in a +4 headband of wisdom by lvl 10 as it nets you an extra casting of strong jaw from the 18 wis.

Also, concerning amulet of mighty fist, this character can get a +3 enhancement bonus on his fists from greater magic fang (final 12 CL) (unless anyone knows where to get 4 spare caster levels on the cheap?), so while not ideal, its a decent bonus.

I'd probably hold off and blow 80k on a brilliant energy amulet (affordable-ish around 14th level), as this character probably doesn't benefit as much from +1d6 acid damage as most others. No problem from that point on hitting anything (except undead and constructs, but you can probably just maul them to death).

*Hah! For once I don't feel like the Amulet of mighty fist is overpriced. In fact this is exactly the kind of character that benefits the most from it.*

Not meaning to necro the thread, but just noticed glaring oversight. Your type doesn't actually change when you wildshape. You are still Humanoid (Human) or what have you. Enlarge person (not a polymorph spell) stil works.

You win, Streamofthesky, 3 monk/ 17 druid it is then. Will possibly post a build soon.

prototype00

Edit: Actually, a question that got lost in the churn, is there any increase in damage dice beyond 12d8? If so, what is the progression? (Or is 12d8 a hard maximum)

Also, does strong Jaw stack with the spell lead blades for monk unarmed strikes?

Actually, just noticed that multiple size boosting effects don't stack as per the rules in enlarge person. So thats a disappointment.

The best method to get 5 increases to size is lead blades, strong jaw and huge wildshape. (Which is possible with the Samsaran and the new racial ability) So the 3 monk/17 druid build is still possible, theoretically.

Maybe I am necroing this thread, but I am currently trying to build a Monk/Druid that is playable as the party tank from level one, and would like to know if there have been any changes on your build prototype00, mainly the STR based one.

So tank build means not getting hit first? Yes, follow the build above. Get crane wing first and basically one on one you cannot be hit in melee. Then you get dragon ferocity at 4th and you can do good damage (as opposed to average damage).

I haven't made too any changes to it, as it should still be functional, but I can play around a bit with it in herolab and tell you if any improvements can be made.

I will finally get to try this out, and was wondering how it plays in a practical sense?

Can you please give a run down on the buffing that needs to happen to make the big damage hits work?? Thank you!

I will finally get to try this out, and was wondering how it plays in a practical sense?

Can you please give a run down on the buffing that needs to happen to make the big damage hits work?? Thank you!

So, first of all, what level are you starting at (because that matters in spell duration and wildshape access e.t.c.)?

The basics of this build (and basically most of it, really) is wildshape into a huge animal (preferably with pounce) and cast strong jaw (min/level, so should be good for two fights at least).

The next thing you want to do is stat boosting, str or wisdom first (which ever is your to hit stat) and then the other next (str for damage, wisdom for more spells).

Note: Is this a pathfinder soc. build or a home game?

prototype00

Edit: Also, what race are you playing? There are shenanigans available for both Aasimar and Samsaran characters.

I was just looking though this thanks to the bump, and didn't notice any magic items in the build. If you plan for a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists, you could take a more useful archetype than Sensei for this build, and get WIS to damage as well as to hit. And then you could flurry as well for a further attack increase and more attacks.

I would, but guided is non-core (adventure path item), and so I hesitate. If you can get it, great! The wisdom build will be perfect for you, good AC and Monk special abilities. (But MoMS has the edge on hit mitigation and damage)

BTW, Sensei Monks can't flurry, so that's kind of a bummer, on the other hand Qinggong Ki powers are nice to have. Imagine a bear shooting out a cold ice strike as a swift action before commencing the mauling.

I'm a little confused... if you're going 10 levels of Monk, how are you reaching 2d10 damage initially? Only a level 20 Monk can get that I thought.

Monk's belt (+5 levels of unarmed damage) and monastic legacy (+5 levels of unarmed damage).

I'm a little confused... if you're going 10 levels of Monk, how are you reaching 2d10 damage initially? Only a level 20 Monk can get that I thought.

10 Levels Monk + (10/2) Levels Druid via Monastic Legacy feat + 5 Monk's Robe = Damage as a 20th level monk.

Aaaahhh. Very cool! I didn't know that belt existed. Kudos on your build sir.

Imbicatus has the right of it, it isn't a belt anymore, its a robe. Still works when you are wildshaped though, so its all good.
I will finally get to try this out, and was wondering how it plays in a practical sense?

Can you please give a run down on the buffing that needs to happen to make the big damage hits work?? Thank you!

So, first of all, what level are you starting at (because that matters in spell duration and wildshape access e.t.c.)?

The basics of this build (and basically most of it, really) is wildshape into a huge animal (preferably with pounce) and cast strong jaw (min/level, so should be good for two fights at least).

The next thing you want to do is stat boosting, str or wisdom first (which ever is your to hit stat) and then the other next (str for damage, wisdom for more spells).

Note: Is this a pathfinder soc. build or a home game?

prototype00

Edit: Also, what race are you playing? There are shenanigans available for both Aasimar and Samsaran characters.

I will probably be playing a Human, although I'm interested in the shenanigans a Samsaran has?

This will literally be played for the Reign of Winter AP, so literally from level 1.

I already built the Human in HeroLabs, and love how the monk turned out. Its pretty sick, I have to say, no armor and 18AC while fighting defensively. I chose the strength build.

What I'm looking for is a detailed breakdown of the damage progression chart you use to get 28d8 or whatever it was, and how it arrived there?

A small tactica, as it were. 'ferinstance:

1st round combat, cast "spell #1!"
2nd round combat, cast "spell #2!"
3rd round combat, do this!
4th round combat ?????
5th round combat, PROFIT.

I will probably be playing a Human, although I'm interested in the shenanigans a Samsaran has?

The Samsaran has the Mystic Past Life Racial ability that allows them to poach spells from other lists. Ranger has Strong Jaw as a lvl 3 spell instead of a lvl 4 for druid and Paladins have the all powerful Holy Sword as a lvl 4 spell.

Aasimars using the Immortal Spark Racial trait could start at middle age for free, (+1 to all mental, no penalty to physical due to innate lesser age resistance). You can buy down charisma all the way to its minimum and use it to boost your physical stats, and it gives a nice boost to wisdom.

Quote:

What I'm looking for is a detailed breakdown of the damage progression chart you use to get 28d8 or whatever it was, and how it arrived there?

The damage in large part is down to what your base unarmed damage is. The 24d8 is a calculation based on 20th level monk damage (2d10).

Basically: 2d10 (base damage) -> 6d8 (Huge Size) -> 12d8 (Strong Jaw) -> 24d8 (Charging with Janni Rush)

Quote:

A small tactica, as it were. 'ferinstance:

1st round combat, cast "spell #1!"
2nd round combat, cast "spell #2!"
3rd round combat, do this!
4th round combat ?????
5th round combat, PROFIT.
Many thanks!

Well, I'd get all the casting done ahead of time, really. Greater Magic Fang lasts for hours (cast a beginning of day), Barkskin lasts for 10 mins/level (cast at beginning of dungeon) and you might leave Strong jaw (mins/level) to cast in the 1st round, but really, you can cast it at the same time as barkskin and start 1st round charging an enemy and mauling them to death.

Karu:
Karu Vennas
Male Nagaji Druid (Bear Shaman) 6 Monk 6
LN Medium Humanoid (reptilian)
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +22
-------------------- Defense --------------------
AC 28, touch 22, flat-footed 26 (+3 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +3 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 87 (12d8+24)
Fort +11 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +9, Will +16; +4 vs. spell-like and supernatural abilities of Fey and against effects that target plants, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +2 bonus vs. mind-affecting effects and poison
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
-------------------- Offense --------------------
Speed 50 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d10+5/x2)
Ranged Sling +9/+4 (1d4+5/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +4/+4/-1, ki strike, magic
Druid (Bear Shaman) Spells Prepared (CL 8):
3 (3/day) Magic Fang, Greater, Poison (DC 18), Spike Growth (DC 18)
2 (4/day) Restoration, Lesser, Resist Energy, Barkskin, Spider Climb
1 (5/day) Liberating Command, Longstrider, Magic Stone, Entangle (DC 16), Jump
0 (at will) Know Direction, Purify Food and Drink (DC 15), Detect Magic, Guidance
-------------------- Statistics --------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 20, Cha 12
Base Atk +8; CMB +15 (+17 Grappling); CMD 35 (37 vs. Grapple)
Feats Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Self-sufficient, Snapping Turtle Clutch, Snapping Turtle Shell, Snapping Turtle Style +2, Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 21), Toughness +12
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Druid [Bear Shaman])
Skills Acrobatics +1 (+9 jump, +7 to jump), Handle Animal +8 (+10 vs. reptiles), Heal +11, Knowledge (nature) +4, Perception +22, Survival +26, Swim +5 (+9 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Druidic
SQ ac bonus +7, animal companion link, bear wild shape (3/day), bear's totem transformation (standard action) (6 m, bear's totemic summons, fast movement (+20'), high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, nature bond abilities (urs, bear), purity of body, resist nature's lure, resistant, serpent's sense, share spells with companion, slow fall 30', spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun, fatigue), totem transformations (bear's toughness), trackless step, unarmed strike (1d10), wild empathy, wild shape (1/day), wild shape (animal), wild shape (totem animal), woodland stride
Other Gear Sling, Belt of giant strength +2, Bracers of armor +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Monk's robe, Ring of protection +1, Backpack, masterwork (empty), Holy symbol, wooden (Cayden Cailean), Silk rope, 100 GP, 5 SP

I realize he is dumb as a rock, but this is intended... imagine the poorly phased monk platitudes I can rain down... "the stone resists the river with time"....
When fully buffed with Barkskin, Greater Magic Fang, and Wildshaped into a Dire Bear he'll be able to toe to toe with most 12hd demons and devils
The insane Survival Skill is for Day Job roles... Hunting Lodge Vanity!
He also has Actual Spoiler: The Owlbear Companion from We Be Goblins Too mostly for flavor and flanking

Was the bear shaman a necessary part of the build? I think the various shaman archetypes really don't bring much to the table unless you are going summoning heavy.
I was thinking of a improved grapple bear wild shape... mostly to go with the owl bear etc...

So here is the strength counterpart to my wisdom build at the beginning:

LN Human Monk(MoMS,Qinggong) 10/Druid(Menhir Savant) 10

Stats:

Str 16 -> 18 (Human Stat Boost)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Traits:

Magical Knack (+2 CL up to character level)
Reactionary (+2 initiative)

Feats:

Human: Dodge
Monk 1: Crane Style
Monk 1 (Bonus): Crane Wing, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Monk 1 / Druid 2: Dragon Style
Monk 2 / Druid 2: Dragon Ferocity
Monk 3 / Druid 2: Monastic Legacy
Monk 3 / Druid 4: Shaping Focus
Monk 3 / Druid 6: Natural Spell
Monk 4 / Druid 7: Planar Wild Shape
Monk 6 / Druid 7: Janni Style
Monk 6 (Bonus) / Druid 7: Janni Rush
Monk 8 / Druid 7: Power Attack

I didn't think MoMS and Qinggong stacked due to both affecting Perfect Self? As such, you wouldn't legally be able to take both archetypes. Sensei is the only Archetype that stacks with Qinggong, so would that still work for the STR build? I think the STR build is a better option if it all works without the MoMS!

Actually Qinggong is rathere adaptable in that you get to pick and choose which class features you give up, thus it is compatible with all monk archetypes (if rather useless for some, like the martial artist for example).

Not a huge part of the build, really, the backbone is MoMS for the Str build and Sensei for the Wis build.

Alesander

Apr 21, 2019, 10:28 am

Hi!
Starting at lvl 5, our game is a bland of fighting and Roleplay, i think our DM aims to hold the CR in check, making well balanced challenges.

problem with warpriest is its soo many quick actions for everything.

So a combat Cleric scott?

I thought about 1 dip Monk and 4 Levels Shaman!
Would it be viable?

Where does a shamans dmg come from?
(Haven't checked the class yet)
Figures a lot of touch attacks has multiple uses, that scales nice with my furry of blows perhaps?

ekibus

Apr 21, 2019, 12:09 pm

Ah cool you already thought of the Shaman Alesander (honest I meant to reply earlier.)

The one level dip with any wis caster will help with your touch AC. A shaman can be a fun debuffer and if you go with the FCB to gain cleric spells they round out pretty nicely.. So by level 3 you can get divine favor, so you could be hitting like a cleric. With 4+int for skills you have a bit more wiggle room. Sadly that is my biggest gripe with cleric, just not enough skills and no synergy with stats..(honestly besides the wizard, I see a cleric more book learned.)

So you would have cleric spells (granted a delay) abd the shaman spell list, which is a bit all over. Depending on how far you want to go down that rabbit hole you could go more casterly and gain some wizard spells too. Then when you start getting hexes you could start picking up misfortune, evil eye and chant to start.

Honestly a shaman covers a lot of bases, I would probably go more of a reach build. With the one level dip in monk you could get combat reflexes. Biggest problem I always run into is how to spend your stats since a hex usually wants you to have a high caster stat but if you are looking at combat you need to shore up your physical stats. So its tough for me here..but the perks are you can already get divine favor at 5...if you go protector you will have by next level a familiar taking half damage for you and you also get barkskin..if you go basic debuff probably evil eye and chant..hopefully this helps, little one is up again

Scott Wilhelm

Apr 21, 2019, 12:09 pm

Generally, a Combat Cleric, if you aren't playing a Warpriest, sounds like a Paladin or Inquisitor. Magda Luckbringer has a cleric build that uses a Reach Polearm and can spam an Area defuffing Condition--I think Dazed--that looks very effective.

You were saying you don't want to multiclass anymore, but you're talking about Multiclassing again, and honestly, I myself am a fan of multiclassing.

You were talking about maximizing your character's survivability, particularly Touch AC. Personally, I like it when I can give myself defense in layers: a miss chance, a high AC, DR, and Fast Healing, but what do you think?

How much do you prioritize:

Being a Warpriest?
high DPR?
Ranged vs. Melee?
survivability?
eschewing multiclassing?

From your recent thread, it seems like your party consists of 3 players: an Archer, an Oracle/Ninja, and you. Your initial idea for a Sacred Fist Warpriest seems pretty tanky. It looks like your character would be the only one focused on melee and Full Attack Melee Damage. That's fine: it looks like the party can certainly use a font-liner. In that case, the party would be depending on you to block for them and keep them alive long enough for them to kill everybody, while they also keep you alive long enough as well.

You could also not do that. You could play a Ranged Character as well, and your party doesn't seem to have a Wizard or Sorcerer. Then the party would be committed to skirmishing, retreating before every foe and shooting/blasting everyone to oblivion before they reach any of you. That should work most of the time, but sometimes the party will run into situations where melee is unavoidable and running away is not an option for some reason or another.

There's another option: you would be a Summoner or some other kind of summoner. Instead of being the melee character, you can summon cannon fodder to fight for you while you and the rest of the party be like Edward Longshanks in Braveheart:

Edward Longshanks wrote:

Send in the Irish: arrows are expensive. The Dead are free.... Call for archers... We'll hit their men as well. We have reserves.

Personally, I feel like every party should have a melee player character, but this might be for emotional reasons. I do like making my melee builds.

But it's not my soul that needs to be searched. You have some soul-searching to do.

Alesander

Apr 21, 2019, 12:50 pm

Im always drawn between high damage and versatility! Such a drag.

Haven't played debuffer before so quite unsure.
As my dmg wouldn't scale with unarmed strike, i do not know how good I am 1 versus one later on.

Can debuffs alone be good enough to make up for lost dmg?

Ill spend the night checking it out further.
But In all honesty warpriest seems to give me versatile spells + good damage.
Dragon style, vital strike, swift action enlarge person, divine favor and destruction, + trickery for double 50% miss chance.
High DC for command and compulsion spells :)
Just freaked out over the very low and useless Flurry of blows.
Wouldn't ever use it I think.

And thene there is magus, a magus with Nodachi and Shocking Grasp + improved crit focus.
Seems pretty nice, however loose all the fun spells and touch ac sucks X)
Sooo hard

DeathlessOne

Apr 21, 2019, 02:35 pm

Alesander wrote:

Hi!
Starting at lvl 5, our game is a bland of fighting and Roleplay, i think our DM aims to hold the CR in check, making well balanced challenges.

OK, I can work with that. The Monk/Shaman idea seems viable, especially if you focus on using wisdom for everything (sensei 2, or the "guided" Weapon enhancement). I had a different idea:

Half-orc Kineticist (Ascetic) / Druid (Nature Fang) (Kin2/Druid3 to start, Kin4/Druid16 final)
If you want to be daring, slap on VMC Magus for some part & riposte shenanigans at level 7, and delivering touch spells with your weapons (you'll need broad study or be very selective about your spells).

Using the Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored combo for boosting saving throws. Get the "Elemental Ki" feat to mimic extra flurry attacks. Use the Slayer Talents to get the Deceptive Ranger Combat Style to simultaneously lower AC and deliver sneak attacks. Crocodile domain for a Protector Familiar (eventually doubles your HP, effectively). The Studied target ability will boost your spell DC's versus single targets.

Scott Wilhelm

Apr 21, 2019, 03:54 pm

Alesander wrote:

Just freaked out over the very low and useless Flurry of blows.

That's why I was suggesting a Natural Attack build instead of Sacred Fist for Warpriest. A Natural Attack build can easily get 5 Attacks/round as a Full Attack, and can sort of get 10, all doing Sacred Weapon Damage and buffable like Clerics can do as Swift Actions like Warpriests can do. Monks' Flurry of Blows gets up to 5 Attacks/round at level 11, and those aren't at the characters' full BAB the way 5 Natural Attacks are. The other 5 cascade from bonus free Grapple checks, so it's a little harder to calculate their actual bonus.

Alesander wrote:

And thene there is magus, a magus with Nodachi and Shocking Grasp + improved crit focus.
Seems pretty nice, however loose all the fun spells and touch ac sucks X)

I wouldn't say so, at least not exactly. Remember that Magi can't even wear Medium Armor until level 7, and they pretty much can't use shields. If they have good AC at all, then they have good Touch AC, cause they are probably not AC due to their Light Armor and no shield! I've never played a Magus. People really seem to like Shocking Grasp, Whirlwind Attack, and Crit Fishing. If you play a Tengu, you are automatically proficient with all swords, so you can use a Bastard Sword for straight-up damage or a Falcata or Katana for Crit-fishing. I never liked Crit-fishing myself, but that may have more to do with my own feelings than the rules. People seem to like Kensai. I hate Kensai myself: diminished spellcasting + no armor seems like a lethal combination in exactly the wrong way. But some people swear by Kensai. They say that they find workarounds to the AC, and I have to admit that Max Damage thing is nice.

avr	Apr 21, 2019, 04:14 pm

A cleric or witch at 5th level doesn't want to multiclass - they've just got 3rd level spells if they don't, and that's a big power increase.

A magus can use mirror image to defend against touch attacks. It works far better than a high touch AC. On the other hand they should not use a nodachi - it's a two-handed weapon and that turns off spell combat, one of the two main class abilities of the magus. Their standard weapons are rapiers and scimitars, barring easy access to some exotic weapon proficiency.

calagnar

Apr 21, 2019, 05:02 pm

Monk Sensei 1: Advice: bardic performance Inspire Courage
Monk Sensei 2: Insightful Strike: Use Wis in place of Str, or Dex for to hit with melee attacks.
Cleric Divine Strategist 1: Master Tactician: +1/2 your level to Initiative. Replaces channel energy.
Domain: you only get one.

Advance as a Cleric Divine Strategist forward. Using touch spells in melee combat as your go to. I recommend using them when you use Stunning Fist. Both go off and they need two saves.

Alesander

Apr 21, 2019, 05:03 pm

Hi!
Thanks for more great replies!
That Natural Weapon build looks really cool and Ill try to make one and see how it ends up.

Atm Im looking at a Bad Touch Magus with a dip in swashbuckler.
It has great debufs, deals very good damage and can get hexes with an archetype which seems good, haven't looked at it quite yet.
I actually like the crit fish :P
We haven't played with a magus before or a crit fisher, so its very new to the party.

It seems strong, 1 vs 1, has debuffs and magics!
But Ill probably find something I dont like and it remains to be seen how High I can get Touch ac. THe Mirror Image is powerfull as you say! So lack of high touch as might be alreight.

Ill read your replies more thoroughly tomorrow!
Thanks again for helping me so much!

ekibus

Apr 21, 2019, 06:23 pm

So here is a odd one for you and a character I'm debating on.

Hexcrafter magus X, occultist 1...basically I went occultist for transmutation (so a free +2 "belt" for str/con/dex) and legacy weapon and then conjuration so I can use wands of cure without issue. Where it becomes fun is by level 3 when you can start giving your magic weapon bane for a minute and with spellstrike/combat I'll be hitting for 2x per round not to mention a shocking grasp or debuff that I might need

Alesander

Apr 21, 2019, 06:24 pm

Magus has Natural Spell Combat, magus can get hex prehensile hair.

Is it possible to make a natural attack build with the magus delivering bad touches and shocking grasps?

Scott Wilhelm

Apr 21, 2019, 06:48 pm

Alesander wrote:

Magus has Natural Spell Combat, magus can get hex prehensile hair.

Is it possible to make a natural attack build with the magus delivering bad touches and shocking grasps?

I don't see why not. I prefer White Hair to Prehensile Hair. Primary vs. Secondary natural attack. Technically, you should be able to get both, but I totally see GMs calling shenanigans on that one. If you are thinking about being a Magus and taking Prehensile Hair, it sounds like you are thinking of Hexcrafter Magus. So you could be a Tengu with Claws and a levelin WHW and lots of levels in Hexcrafter Magus? That sounds like a plan. I've never played a Witch. I've heard good things about Hexes: you can Spam them every round; they usually allow Saving Throws, but it only takes 1 failed save to make something bad happen.

Typically, though, Magi use 1 handed weapons which they charge up with Arcana, Arcane Strike, and Touch Spells. I think of those things being used on only 1 weapon at a time, and you normally want to max out your base damage with a big weapon (although a lot of Magi seem to use rapiers or something and Crit Fish). The reason I like Natural Attacks + Wapriest is that the base damage goes up for all your many, many attacks via Sacred Weapon. I'd be a Tengu Warpriest with Claws, or I'd be a Tengu Magus with a Bastard Sword.

Alesander wrote:

That Natural Weapon build looks really cool and Ill try to make one and see how it ends up.

I offered you the beginnings of one on your earlier thread.

By the way, just to confuse you more, if you are thinking about an Natural Attacking Melee Character with Arcane Spellcasting, maybe you should take a look at Bloodrager.

avr	Apr 21, 2019, 06:51 pm

I guess you could? You wouldn't crit very often with natural attacks though, which is one of the fun parts of spellstrike. Also prehensile hair requires a standard action to start with which spell combat can't start since it's not a spell. On the other hand it does let you rely on Int to attack with, if the only natural attack you get is the hair.

Scott Wilhelm

Apr 21, 2019, 08:08 pm

avr wrote:

I guess you could? You wouldn't crit very often with natural attacks though, which is one of the fun parts of spellstrike. Also prehensile hair requires a standard action to start with which spell combat can't start since it's not a spell. On the other hand it does let you rely on Int to attack with, if the only natural attack you get is the hair.

You know, it just occurs to me that the Natural Attack rules say that when you have only one natural attack, it automatically becomes Primary even if it was Secondary before, and you get +1.5 ST Mod to your Damage. But Prehensile Hair (and Nails) specify that they are Secondary Natural Attacks, so I'm not sure how that would pan out.

Also, if you were planning on using a regular weapon anyway, any Primary Natural Attack would automatically be relegated to Secondary, so maybe you might as well take Prehensile Hair and forget about White Hair.

Derklord

Apr 22, 2019, 06:47 am

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

You know, it just occurs to me that the Natural Attack rules say that when you have only one natural attack, it automatically becomes Primary even if it was Secondary before, and you get +1.5 ST Mod to your Damage. But Prehensile Hair (and Nails) specify that they are Secondary Natural Attacks, so I'm not sure how that would pan out.

The special cases described in the natural attack rules (sole natural weapon, or combining manufactured and natural weapons), always overrule the default classification. Extrapolated from the FAQ regarding unRogue's dex modifier, a White-Haired Witch even gets 1.5xInt on damage rolls if the hair is the only natural weapon.

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