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tl;dr what AC does the psychic-wave cannon from Armory target?
A bit of confusion on psychic-wave cannons and how you target enemies with them. Am I rolling against KAC or EAC or am I not rolling at all?
The description of EAC has this:
"Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC; the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case."
The cannons do not specify that they target EAC. Would this mean that they would target KAC instead? Does the mind-affecting tag from the weapon (linked above) indicate that no attack roll is needed (like mind thrust)?
I'm just trying to understand this weapon and its intended use as there seems to be some confusion on exotic damage types and whether they target EAC or KAC by default unless otherwise specified.
I'm inclined to say it targets EAC but if there's a good argument otherwise I'd love to hear it and if we can get a dev comment clarifying it would be even better.
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My contention is the same here as it was on the discord. The default AC to target is KAC. Unless it does purely energy damage or meets the qualifier you quoted. The second half of the sentence you quoted makes KAC default. If the description of the weapon or effect does not explicitly tell you that it targets EAC, then it doesn't.
The Mind-Affecting tag means that it only works on non-mindless targets.
I'm going to stick to my guns from the previous discussion, and say that default AC is EAC.
EAC states it is the defenses against attacks that deal damage through Energy. That's, technically, all forms of damage ever.
Only KAC calls out physical contact as it's qualifier, so it takes over in those instances.
On the topic of untyped damage, EAC states "Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC; the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case."
KAC makes no mention of untyped at all, hile EAC called it out there.
Under those two points, I'm going to give EAC priority and say that unspecified untyped damage targets EAC.
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EAC is only targeted by acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage (and only if the entire damage output is made up of 1 or more of those 5).
Some weapons and effects using magical or exotic untyped energy only target EAC if the weapon or effect calls it out.
The psychic wave cannon does not, so it targets KAC.
EAC is only targeted by acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage (and only if the entire damage output is made up of 1 or more of those 5).
Some weapons and effects using magical or exotic untyped energy only target EAC if the weapon or effect calls it out.
The psychic wave cannon does not, so it targets KAC.
And KAC is only targeted by attacks that deal Slashing, Piercing, or Bludgeoning damage, even if they deal those damage types alongside another.
KAC describes itself as protection from physical contact. "Untyped", "Psychic-Wave" and "Mind-affecting" by no means sound like physical contact to me.
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KAC is the default AC for nonstandard energy types, based on the Targeting AC section of the CRB. As a result, I believe KAC would be the most accurate answer to the official rules, though it is hard for me to reconcile it as logical.
Doesn't matter.
EAC specifically mentions that the weapon or effect needs to call it out. If it doesn't call it out it reverts to the other one.
And KAC specifically mentions that the weapon or effect needs to be based on physical contact. If it isn't, it reverts to KAC.
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Your Energy Armor Class (EAC) represents the defenses you have against attacks that only deal damage as a result of some kind of energy (such as acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage). When an opponent’s attack would deal only energy damage (if he is using, for example, a laser pistol), his attack roll result is compared to your EAC to determine whether he hits you. Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC; the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case.
I'm unsure how you could interpret this as, "the weapon does not say it targets EAC, thus it targets EAC because it is untyped damage."
Because nothing about KAC or Untyped damage talked about Untyped targeting KAC, while EAC actually mentions Untyped damage and so takes precedence.
Thus, if an effect describes itself as needing at attack roll, it targets EAC by default.
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The weapon with exotic untyped damage does not say it targets EAC, so it targets EAC, in spite of the rules telling you that it needs to be called out and if it isn't called it out doesn't target EAC (which automatically makes it KAC because that's the only other type of AC there is).
I'm out. This type of circular logic cannot be countered.
Because nothing about KAC or Untyped damage talked about Untyped targeting KAC, while EAC actually mentions Untyped damage and so takes precedence.
Thus, if an effect describes itself as needing at attack roll, it targets EAC by default.
...it says untyped damage MAY target EAC, and the weapon will tell you if that's the case.
The weapon doesn't say, so it targets KAC by default.
But at no point does it say "Untyped targets KAC".
It only mentions targeting EAC, because most untyped damage doesn't require an attack roll. So if it DOES need an attack roll, it targets EAC, because that's the only Untyped vs. AC mentioned.
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Again, right here:
Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC; the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case.
The psychic wave cannon does not tell you it targets EAC, therefore it targets KAC.
Should it target EAC? Probably, the description mentions it not relying on projectiles or energy waves, but it doesn't mention targeting EAC.
Does it target EAC? No, RAW it does not.
So let's break this down.
"Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC"
This is implying that these damage types can target your EAC. Generally we see untyped damage in situation like Mind Thrust, which don't have an attack roll, and so don't target any AC.
"the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case."
So the weapon description will tell you if you need to make an attack roll, such as the Psychic Wave Cannon's Blast property.
At no point the the Untyped damage imply it can target KAC, so we are making our attack roll against EAC.
It literally says “You target KAC unless I tell you different” for untyped damage.
Except it doesn't. KAC isn't mentioned at all in the portion of EAC that deals with untyped damage. It is presented as "counter to the norm", and the norm within the context of the game is Untyped damage not needing an attack roll.
We don’t need a weapon description to tell us if there’s an attack roll. Is it a weapon? Yes? Then it has an attack roll, because that’s how you attack with weapons.
It's not impossible that, in the future, we may have weapons that simply function similiar to a breath weapon. But a fair point.
What we do need from the weapon description is if the attack is a non-standard attack, or if it’s versus a non-standard AC. So, Blast tells us that whatever AC we’re trying to hit, we do so at -2. Explode tells us we’re aiming at a grid intersection with AC… 5? 10? Whatever that AC is.
Accurate, no arguments here.
“Kinetic” damage? KAC. Energy damage? EAC. Untyped? Look at the weapon description. Does it say EAC? No? Then KAC.
Disagree. Pure energy damage targets EAC, while damage that is "Primarily caused by physical contact" targets KAC. Technically, ALL DAMAGE is energy-based, because that's what kinetic force is.
So, my argument is that if a target isn't specified, the default assumption should be EAC (unless some obvious physical contact is present)
Luckily, again, it literally tells us what to do, so we don’t need you or anyone else to tell us what something may or may not imply. It tells us that in the absence of a damage type that automatically targets a specific AC, we are to look at the weapon, and it will tell us if it targets EAC. If it does not say that it targets EAC, then it targets KAC, as there are no more kinds of AC to target
At no point does the description of Untyped damage "literally" say anything about KAC. You are making an assumption that the wording is referring to something completely unrelated.
At no point does the description of Untyped damage "literally" say anything about KAC. You are making an assumption that the wording is referring to something completely unrelated.
The description of untyped damage however does say something about EAC.
The description of untyped damage is practically the dictionary definition of targeting KAC by implication.
The description of untyped damage tells you that if the weapon targets EAC, the weapon will mention so in the description.
As in, if it targets EAC, the weapon description will say so.
If the weapon description does not say explicitly that it targets EAC, then it does not target EAC.
If the weapon does not target EAC, well, there are only two types of AC in starfinger, EAC and KAC, if it doesn't target EAC, you have to target KAC with the attack roll.
An important point I would also like to raise is that, in the order that the rules are presented, EAC and it's bit about Untyped damage are presented to us before KAC's, so if it were referring to KAC, why wouldn't it mention "Target KAC (see below)"?
The description of untyped damage however does say something about EAC.
And only EAC.
The description of untyped damage is practically the dictionary definition of targeting KAC by implication.
Then why doesn't KAC mention it?
The description of untyped damage tells you that if the weapon targets EAC, the weapon will mention so in the description.
Because it can either target EAC, or not require an attack roll.
As in, if it targets EAC, the weapon description will say so.
If the weapon description does not say explicitly that it targets EAC, then it does not target EAC
This is the exact opposite of the only way I can reasonably read that statement, in context of the greater game.
If the weapon does not target EAC, well, there are only two types of AC in starfinger, EAC and KAC, if it doesn't target EAC, you have to target KAC with the attack roll.
I do agree that there are only two AC types, and if it didn't target EAC, it either doesn't require an attack roll, or specifies that it targets KAC. KAC calls out Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, Falling, and Crushing damage. The latter two are EXCEPTIONS because they really should be Bludgeoning, but are untyped for balance, which is why they are explicitly called out.
Outside of those instances, the default assumption should be that an attack roll targets EAC, as all damage is a form of energy.
All weapons require attack rolls. They only target EAC if they are a typed energy damage, or if their description states that they target EAC.
to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
So, if it deals untyped damage, but doesn't target EAC, KAC is the answer, no matter how little sense that makes.
Should probably be FAQ'd, psychic waves make no sense targeting KAC. RAI, yes they probably target EAC. RAW they target KAC.
All weapons require attack rolls. They only target EAC if they are a typed energy damage, or if their description states that they target EAC.
Again, the first part is only true in the current state of the game. Other d20 systems have had weapons that function as breath weapons.
EAC is used against attacks of energy. All attacks are made of energy in some form, so damage types that target KAC are the exception, not the rule.
So, if it deals untyped damage, but doesn't target EAC, KAC is the answer, no matter how little sense that makes.
If it deals untyped damage, and requires an attack roll, it targets EAC. Unless something connects it to KAC.
Should probably be FAQ'd
I flagged the OP for a FAQ, personally.
I flagged the OP for a FAQ, personally.
Same.
I'm going to leave the discussion here, circular arguments are useless. You're reading it one way, I'm reading it the other.
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I flagged the OP for a FAQ, personally.Same.
I'm going to leave the discussion here, circular arguments are useless. You're reading it one way, I'm reading it the other.
To be fair, he's reading it one way, you and every other person are reading it another.
If the weapon deals only energy damage, the attack targets EAC. Energy damage generally includes acid, cold, electricity, fire,and sonic damage, though it also potentially includes magical or exotic untyped energies.
If the weapon deals only kinetic damage, or if it deals both energy and kinetic damage, the attack targets KAC. Kinetic damage generally comes from attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as well as damage from crushing, constriction, or the impact from falling.
Source: CRB 169, TARGETING ARMOR CLASS
Okay. So.
The crux of the question is to figure out what kind of damage this weapon is dealing.
The psychic wave cannon is dealing a currently a rarely-if-ever-used-in-a-weapon untyped damage. So we now look to see what how how we can define what this untyped damage is, and if it's Energy damage or Kinetic damage.
Looking at what Kinetic damage is defined as: "Kinetic damage generally comes from attacks that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as well as damage from crushing, constriction, or the impact from falling."
It doesn't seem like this damage from the wave cannon really matches any of those descriptions.
Now, looking at what Energy damage is defined as: "...generally includes acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage, though it also potentially includes magical or exotic untyped energies."
It seems clear that Energy Damage's description is specifically calling out untyped energies (which is what this gun is projecting) as Energy damage, regardless of if it's one of the 5 more common types.
It targets EAC, in my interpretation.
It seems clear that Energy Damage's description is specifically calling out untyped energies (which is what this gun is projecting) as Energy damage, regardless of if it's one of the 5 more common types.
You're ignoring the (quoted in the OP) part of EAC's description where it explicitly states that if a weapon or affect deals untyped energy and targets EAC, it will say that it targets EAC in the weapon or effect's description.
Oh, wow, something happened to the OP. I'm not the OP. I don't know where Sparrow's message went.
This was the quoted text.
"Some weapons and effects that use magical or exotic untyped energies might also target your EAC; the description of the weapon or effect tells you if this is the case."
I don't know what happened to the original post, but in case anyone thinks I'm the one asking this question, I'm not. My position is that the gun targets KAC by RAW. It may be RAI for it to target EAC, but by RAW it doesn't.
EDIT: Weird, now his message is showing up.
Arguments for it targeting EAC:
-It is assuredly not a physical, kinetic force of damage from the weapon, based on the description.
-EAC targeting rules specifically call out 'exotic untyped damage' as a valid energy damage, where KAC targeting rules do not.
Arguments for it targeting KAC:
-The weapon does not specifically call out the weapon targeting EAC, as stated that it should on 240.
Arguments for it targeting neither EAC or KAC:
-The weapon description itself says it is neither a physical projectile or energy damage.
More clarification is definitely needed, I concede. From a logical standpoint, it definitely should target EAC. And as there is no clear-cut winner in my mind rules-wise, I'd personally rule it that way until more clarity rolls around.
I could even see the argument that it doesn't even need an attack roll, if it works similar to an Area of Effect Mind Thrust in damage typing (which can't miss). Armor/Dex doesn't help you prevent getting hit from a Mind Thrust, why would it help against something that deals the same kind of mental damage? Obviously it is still an attack and thus needs an attack roll, plus there's no save DC listed nor rules for what a success/fail would be on that save, so that isn't the case.
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-It is assuredly not a physical, kinetic force of damage from the weapon, based on the description.
You don't actually know that. A psychic wave could be the same sort of effect generated by telekinesis, which is a decidedly physical and kinetic force. It could be the mind of the target unleashing chaos inside it's own body. It could be physically turning on pain receptors in the nervous system or crushing them. There isn't a 'real world' equivalent of a 'psychic wave' to compare it to and the description of the weapon is limited to the parts that effect how the game works. In those, it doesn't list an energy type, and it doesn't say it targets EAC, so, by default, it has to target KAC.
-EAC targeting rules specifically call out 'exotic untyped damage' as a valid energy damage, where KAC targeting rules do not.
While those exact words ('exotic untyped damage') aren't found, the description for KAC does list several kinds of damage beyond bludgeoning/slashing/piercing that are exotic (read, unusual) and untyped. I know falling is one of them off the top of my head. Crushing and Constriction are sometimes bludgeoning and sometimes untyped.
It also ignores that the description of what KAC covers is written to be non-exhaustive (that's why the sentence begins with 'generally includes' meaning, it could also include other things that aren't listed, but these are the most general examples), whereas the description of EAC is written to be exclusive (it's only pure energy damage, and untyped damage that explicitly says it targets EAC).
Thank you, sir.
Hi folks!
The psychic wave cannon is supposed to target EAC. We should have said that in the description. It's a mistake that we didn't.
This is marked for a FAQ, and to be corrected in errata.
Huzzah! Thanks for the reply.
