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New campaign, new character - need some crazy help

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Hello to everyone, i just joined the community and i hope that i posted my introduction in the right section.
Thus said, we're currently playing We Be Goblins (tonight last "act") and God, we are loving this adventure!
The GM said we're going to start a new AP (don't know which one yet) at the end of We Be Goblins, so i loved so much playing a Goblin PC that i would make another one in the big AP!

So, thus said, more details:
20 points for the characteristics
Starting at level 1 (going 16+ i guess, probably even more knowing my group)
We can use everything official despite Unchained classes, Occult classes(sad because kineticist looks awesome to me as a Gobbo) and 3rdparty
I would go with a melee focus(i know isn't maybe the best for a goblin but i love too much the idea)

I would like some help since i'm a zero with builds and optimizing a character (i'm just decent as a roleplayer)

I forgot: if the build could fit into a dogslicer or horsechopper is even better cuz it fits more the roleplaying of that race in my opinion
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There’s a lot you can do with the goblin chassis. Just about anything, really, besides CHA based casting.

If you want to use a dogslicer, I’d recommend Swashbuckler or Unchained Rogue. They’re both pretty easy to build.

This is the Guide to the Guides. It’s a massive compilation of character advice for all the different classes. I’d recommend reading a guide or two (prioritizing the ones that came out most recently) for whatever class you want to play, and then coming to the forums for more specific advice on your unique circumstances.

Best of luck!

So, I'm thinking that when you are size small, your melee weapons do less damage. Sneak Attack Damage doesn't scale down with size, so I like my Size Small Characters to do Sneak Attack Damage.

What are some ways to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage?

Flanking
Maybe some kind of teleport thingy?
Feats that help you move around the battlefield a lot.
Maybe a Flanking buddy?

Blinding your opponents
The Mudball Spell.

The Dirty Tricks Combat Maneuver can be used to Blind opponents, and if they have Blindsight, Dirty Tricks can make them Deaf, too.
Combat Expertise
Improved Dirty Trick
Greater Dirty Trick
Quick Dirty Trick (or the Dirty Trick Bounty Hunter-Slayer Class Ability

Smoke: Smokesticks, Horn of Fog, Eversmoking Bottle, Obscuring Mist, Pyrotechnics

Bluff to Feint in Combat
Combat Expertise
Improved Feint

Turing Invisible
Ninja Vanishing Trick, Improved Invisibility

There are surely others, but that's more than you will need.

In addition, there are some other really cool feats I think would go well with a character like this Snake and Panther style feats, and of course, those Goblin Feats: Tangle Feet and Roll with it. If you want to be flanking by running all around the battlefield, these will really serve you well.

Thank you Asmodeus.
Sadly Unchained classes are not an option for me (previous post). Straight Rogue(or chained) is not an option?

I'm reading many guides already (from your link, thanks a lot) and with the search function i'm looking at many threads about goblin characters.
Overall i feel like swashbuckler could be a great option but as said i don't even know how to start a build that could be viable(keep up or almost) with other PCs in the party(i want to have fun avoiding being completely useless in combat, that could be a nice way to avoid getting refused or killed by my party).

Barbarian is also a class i like to play, but (if i'm not completely wrong) i should prioritize DEX on STR on my choices right?

Charisma along with some Bluff/Diplomacy are some stuff i should care about, because they can become handy to survive (another point into the swashgoblin build i guess).

Reading threads (as said above) i saw some roleplaying advices on playing it as a Sarenrae "adept" (which looks funny to me) so this open up it for a Warpriest or Cleric maybe? Some kind of melee Oracle not too relayant on spells?
Anyway this is more a roleplay option: i could always "act as a fake priest"
Silver Crusade

Sorry, missed the no occult classes.

The one level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler gives you dex to damage at lvl 1 (with a rapier). The Empiricist Investigator archetype allows you to use int for some social skills. Investigators generally have a very good AC, with mutagen and Barkskin.

Thank you Scott.
There are some nice informations there.

Smoke: isn't smoke going to blind my allies aswell?
Sneak attacks are the best way to get rid of the "small race malus" or Dex to damages already cover enough that part?
Asking because Unchained Rogue isn't available to me (i could always ask to my GM for a small dip maybe, but he won't allow a full unchained rogue since he got beaten in some way in another party, probably due to some broken combo or whatever).

Maneuvers: i tend to love those amazing actions, but i never got into these with small races (don't they have malus or lack of utility late game?).

Thanks PCScipio.
Telekinecist is an Occult class right? Not an option :(.

I'm looking at investigator right now (no clue what it does).

Goblins make super bad-ass swashigators (inspired blade swashbuckler1/investigatorX) but the first 5 levels will be quite painful. I loved mine and still consider him one of my best characters, mechanically speaking, but I started him at level 8.

The very best goblin I ever personally saw in action was one played by dwarftr, who is a member on these boards that I play with IRL. He used the medium-sized goblin variant for a tetori monk and it was awesome, like literally awe-inspiring! At one point Knuckles grappled, killed and ate a horse all by himself. If I have piqued your interest, you could PM him for build details--I bet he'd be happy to share.
Silver Crusade

Sorry, missed the no occult classes.

The one level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler gives you dex to damage at lvl 1 (with a rapier). The Empiricist Investigator archetype allows you to use int for some social skills. Investigators generally have very good AC, with mutagen and Barkskin.

Ah! I somehow missed that Unchained classes weren’t allowed. That’s what I get for skimming!

I’d advise against rougery, in that case. Sneak Attack is nice, but often unreliable. It’s certainly not necessary for building a front-line Small race. (Compare a Goblin with a rapier to a human with the same - the goblin has a bonus to hit from being small, and the +4 DEX against the human’s +2 makes up for the smaller damage due.)

Quote:
Barbarian is also a class i like to play, but (if i'm not completely wrong) i should prioritize DEX on STR on my choices right?

Yup. The main thing you have going for you as a goblin is that crazy-good DEX score - you want to take advantage of it.

Quote:
Maneuvers: i tend to love those amazing actions, but i never got into these with small races (don't they have malus or lack of utility late game?).

Maneuvers are campaign-drpendent; they work well against humanoids, but not against giant monsters. It depends on what you’re fighting. Also, small races take a penalty on them - I wouldn’t recommend using them in this particular case.

So Why? wrote:
Smoke: isn't smoke going to blind my allies aswell?

There is a way around this. Take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, and you get a particular Bardic song that empowers your allies to see through smoke.

So Why? wrote:
Maneuvers: i tend to love those amazing actions, but i never got into these with small races (don't they have malus or lack of utility late game?).
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
Maneuvers are campaign-drpendent; they work well against humanoids, but not against giant monsters. It depends on what you’re fighting. Also, small races take a penalty on them - I wouldn’t recommend using them in this particular case.

The Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver will work on targets regardless of the relative size of the combatants, and they are very versatile: I like making my opponents Blind, but you can also make your opponents Deaf if they have Blindsight or something. You can apply any of a lot of conditions to your opponents with Dirty Tricks.

Small Creatures do take a -2 Penalty on Combat Maneuvers, but there are lots of ways to increase your CMB to compensate for this.

I'm not definitely telling you to work Dirty Tricks into your build. I think you should have lots of ways of locking in your Sneak Attack Damage, and Dirty Tricks could be one of them.

This would be friggin hilarious: make a Goblin Grappler! I am confident that by level 9, you could have a goblin Grappler with a CMB of +30 full time, even considering your size. You could grapple and tie up an opponent in 1 round. I have started a human character like this in PFS. I wasn't going to recommend this to you because the build starts off as a ranger/archer, developing into a grappler at level 7. But it would work for a Goblin.

Thank you bornoffire.
Investigator is a class i've never read till now, trying to understand if i like it, but being uneffective at all the first levels (which i tend love the most in campaigns) feels a little bit ankward for me (anyway considering we're probably going up to 20th, imma consider it a viable option).
Your friend build is probably unappropriated for me since i love goblins as they are, small crazy green ugly puppets XD!

Thanks PCScipio.
No worries, my post was confusionary written i think.
I consider that probably INT is going to be a "dump" stat for me, since i value too much that CHA so i'm not too much interested in swapping those two for some skills (helps for RP flavour also, goblins aren't that smart).

Thanks Asmodeus.
Then i'm avoiding rogues (other SA attacks dependent classes are still viable or not?).
DEX as main stat, noted.
Is there a way to get Barbarian do that maybe?

Maneuvers are something i love for real, i find them even more useful than straight damage output since those help controlling the battlefield.
I asked to my GM, he didn't pronounce about which AP are we gonna play yet or what are we going to face but he said that the church of Asmodeus will be very important (so i guess we're going to face clerics, oracles and fanatics along with Devils or Demons stuff maybe? I don't know, i played RotRl and the Tar Baphon one, sorry can't remember how was that one called).

Thanks Scott.
So you suggest a grappler, which i guess isn't a maneuver that gets too many malus when being small? Could it performed on Large foes for example? I don't wanna risk into a superfocused build and then face the fact i can't really do anything in a fight, that's why i'm asking.

If you want to use dogslicer, but don’t have unchained, you’ll want to find alternatives to dex to damage. A weapon master fighter would do pretty well with advanced weapon training.
So Why? wrote:

Thanks Scott.

So you suggest a grappler, which i guess isn't a maneuver that gets too many malus when being small? Could it performed on Large foes for example? I don't wanna risk into a superfocused build and then face the fact i can't really do anything in a fight, that's why i'm asking.

My build starts off with 2 levels in Ranger and takes Precise Shot and uses a Wand of Gravity bow. Since she's a human--size Medium--her gravitied arrows do 2d6. For a Goblin, this trick would only raise the damage from 1d6 to 1d8, You could pass on that.

She then takes 2 levels in Monk to get Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes.

She takes a level in Cavalier, Constable Archetype, Order of the Penitent. She will either take Coordinated Maneuvers or Broken Wing Gambit as her Bonus Teamwork Feat. The latter would be a good choice for the Goblin build I was thinking of. I was thinking of Panther and Snake styles anyway, and BWG is yet another AoO trigger, only with this one, whenever anyone in the party is attacked, EVERYONE gets an Attack of Opportunity. Coordinated Maneuvers grants a +2 CMB.

With 2 levels in CCOotP, she gets an ability called Expert Captor, which allows her to Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and she doesn't take the usual -10 to do it, either. At level 7, she takes a level in Fighter and takes Greater Grapple. Greater Grapple lets you Grapple as a Move Action. That means if you begin your round adjacent to your opponent, you can Initiate your Grapple as a Standard Action then Tie him up as a Move Action, all in 1 round! Order of the Penitent might be a little weird for a Goblin character: they swear an oath to never kill people.

The next 4 levels will be levels in Alchemist with the Grenadier Archetype. She will use her Feats to take more Discoveries. She will take Infusion, Crab Tumor Familiar, Tentacle, and Explosive Missile. The Crab will give her a +2 on Grapple Checks, and the Tentacle will give her a +4. Explosive Missles will let her attach her Bombs to her Arrows, and at 2nd level Alchemist, she will also be able to attach Alchemal weapons like Acid and Alchemist Fire to her Arrows, making her ranged attacks do a respectable amount of damage: Exploding Arrows are cool. This would be a very Gobliny part of the build.

Where are we with the GMB?

BAB +9
ST 16: +3
Improved Grapple: +2
Greater Grapple: +2
Crab Familiar: +2
Tentacle: +4

Alchemal Strength Mutagen: +2

Some Magic Items:
Armbands of the Brawler: +1
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver: +2
Brawler Armor Enchantment: +2
Ioun Stone +1 Attack Rolls: +1
Belt of +2 St: +1

So that's +31.

As a Goblin, you would take the Agile Maneuvers Feat to use your Dex Mod instead of your St Mod. You would use the Dex Belts and Mutagen instead of the St versions, of course.

I've worked out a method to benefit from True Strike.

In combat, this character basically does 2 things: Shoots exploding Arrows and Grapples single opponents. She is adequate--I think--in combat with multiple, lesser opponents.

I didn’t mean to scare you off of investigator. You will be competent in combat before getting studied strike plus you have a crap-ton of skills, inspiration and your alchemy which gives the option to take a mutagen with one of your investigator talents (do it!) as well the deeds, higher BAB and HP from the swashbuckler level. As such, I retract “quite painful” and switch that to “a little rough going” prior to studied strike because, once it comes on line, you go from competent to a beast in combat.

If you don’t use investigator for this particular character, keep an open mind about it in the future ;) It’s a great class!

Here is a tentative highly mobile, sneak attacking melee goblin build

1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Brawler’s Cunning, Sneak Attack 1d6, Martial Training, Unarmed 1d4, Combat Expertise BAB+1
2B2: Brawler’s Flurry, Improved Feint, BAB+2

A Wondrous Item that's great for this is a Mask of the Stony Demeanor: +5 on Bluff Checks to Feint in Combat.

3B3: Snake Feint, Dodge, BAB+3

Snake Feint lets you Feint while you are Moving without taking an extra Action.

4B3Ninja1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Poison
5B3N2: Style Master Ninja Trick: Panther Style, Ki Pool, Combat Reflexes, BAB+4
6B3N3: Sneak Attack +1d6, No Trace +1, BAB+5
7B3N4: Combat Trick, Panther Claw, Mobility, BAB+6

Panther Claw grants extra Free Action Attacks by Provoking Attacks of Opportunity by Moving out of Threatened Squares. Dodge and Mobility will give you a +5 AC for just such an occaision.

8B3N4Arcanist1: Dimensional Slide, Spells

One spell to pay attention to is Mudball: Level 1, Ranged Touch Attack, target is Blinded. Also you can now use Wizard Wands such as Greater Invisibility.

9B3N4A1Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Snake Style, Snake Sidewind
10B4N4A1M1: AC +1, Unarmed 1d6, BAB+7
11B4N5A1M1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Snake Fang

If you are attacked and missed, you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity.

12B5N5A1M1: Panther Parry

When you Provoke those Attacks of Opportunity, your Free Action Attacks happen first, and if any hit, your opponent's Attack is at -2.

Thanks Melkiador.
Do you have a build (starting from level 1) to show me?

Thanks Scott.
I see there you have proposed me a build on grapple, but the other build you posted is more a sneaky one.
The first build (i'd be glad to see that one) based on Grapple does assume i'm going unarmed strike? Can't i hold a weapon at least?

The second build based on mixing up SA and Panther style i don't get why the dip into spell class (i mean i could achieve some magic items to avoid the dip no? maybe wands of spells or whatever?). Poison isn't a thing for me: i believe is pretty useless because DC are low and many creatures are immune (my opinion obiouvsly). Anyway is a no weapons build right?

Thanks bornoffire.
The investigator looks like an interesting class, but it's INT based right? I like the poison resistances (may come in hand if the PC starts eating some creature, but maybe too situational, i think my GM would require fortitude saves when i eat something i shall not) while the poison lore i find that one useless (for the same reasons i posted above).
So Why? wrote:

Thanks Scott.

I see there you have proposed me a build on grapple, but the other build you posted is more a sneaky one.
The first build (i'd be glad to see that one) based on Grapple does assume i'm going unarmed strike? Can't i hold a weapon at least?

You could, but that build is not about inflicting damage in melee. 2 ideas I had about melee weapons would be morning star and taking the Hamtula Strike Feat or dipping a level in White Haired Witch and relying on the Hair.

So Why? wrote:
The second build based on mixing up SA and Panther style i don't get why the dip into spell class (i mean i could achieve some magic items to avoid the dip no? maybe wands of spells or whatever?).

The level in Arcanist is to get Dimensional Slide and the ability to use Magic Wands. Dimensional Slide is better in that it can be done as part of Movement, not requiring an extra action, and Regular DimDoor ends your round due to disorientation. One level is a small price to pay for all that.

So Why? wrote:
Poison isn't a thing for me: i believe is pretty useless because DC are low and many creatures are immune (my opinion obiouvsly). Anyway is a no weapons build right?
Yeah, but the character gets it, so I wrote it down.

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1-2 go PFS Lore Warden Fighter...
1. Burn! Burn! Burn!
1. Bonus Combat Feat: Fire Hand
2. Class Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
2. Bonus Combat Feat: Weapon Finesse

3-X go Fire Bomber Alchemist and throw bombs with one hand, hit people with a torch in the other hand.

You can still go with TWF and the improved thereof... use a dogslicer and a torch when not dual-wielding bombs!

Or go Arcane Duelist Bard after 2 levels of Lore Warden Fighter... take the Battle Singer Goblin feat, if you are all Goblins, this will be awesome... you could still dual-weild a torch and dogslicer. This gives you medium and heavy armor proficiency, Arcane Strike, and a bonded weapon... you could probably invest some in Charisma or just take the Extra Performance feat to make up for it. Focus on utility magic that doesn't require a high Charisma to make sure it has a high DC.

Retrain Combat Expertise if your GM will let you, or find something useful that requires you to already have it... if you don't plan on using it, but it was free, so whatever either way.

Be a Goblin. Do Goblin stuff. Embrace the Goblin...

Thanks Scott.
I'm not a fan of unarmed strike, but i should admit that if done in the One Punch (-Saitama-) style could interest me.
I ran into Roll with It and in my eyes is a cool feat (but not working on all builds).
Ok so Arcanist to get use of wands.

Thanks Voodist.
Alchemist does focus on INT tho, stat i'm probably going to "dump" since i want CHA instead, could work anyway?

For the TWF, a question:When DEX based for hit and damage is better TWF or THW?

A question on Swashbuckler: Regaining Panache points (main feature of the class right?) is Light or One Handed Piercing weapon only? That's a crazy limit based on type of damage? (can't believe it!)

Concerning level dips (like Inspired Blade one, to get Dex to hit and damage), still limited by a rapier/piercing.
This stuff is letting me think if Barbarian based on DEX wouldn't be better.

With 20points i can achieve something like this(racials included):
STR: 5 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 14

How about a simple build? Straight Ranger. 10 Str, 20 Dex, invest a few points into a 13-14 wis/con. I'd avoid dumping Int but you can if you want.

Go with 2 weapon fighting style. Carry a Sling with you because its light and Goblins like using trash to kill people. Definitely invest in Weapon Finesse for Dex to hit.

Then decide on one of 2 weapon styles. Traditional is a pair of Dogslicers and you'll want to enchant both of them with the Agile enchantment asap so you can get dex to damage. You'll probably want piranha strike too.

Or you can go the Improvised route. You're GM might not like this since its from one of the recent paperbacks but there is this thing called Shikigami Style, Shikigami Manipulation, and Shikigami Mimicry which will power up improvised weapons a lot. Torches are improvised weapons that count as Gauntlets in your hands. Take Catch Off Guard to eliminate the penalty for using improvised weapons. Take Burn! Burn! Burn! to give you some extra damage from using torches. Then start taking the Shikigami feats. Even with all 3 shikigami feats your torch will only do 2d6 damage (+1d4+1 fire) but its fun. Though if you wanted to get serious you'd start using magic items as beat sticks.

If you got a pair of Metamagic Rod:Merciful it would be a +4 weapon that does 3d6+4 damage.

Either way you decide to go, make Human you're favored enemy. Or dogs. Your choice.

Thanks Meirril.
I'm not too much into ranger, because i don't wanna raise my wisdom (12 is pretty fine), and why 10 on STR? ain't we gonna use DEX for both hit and damage?
The improvised route sounds fun, sadly Fire is the most resisted element in the game, so i'm not going into fire damage at all.

Ah, sling, that one i'm gonna add for sure XD!
So Why? wrote:

Thanks Meirril.

I'm not too much into ranger, because i don't wanna raise my wisdom (12 is pretty fine), and why 10 on STR? ain't we gonna use DEX for both hit and damage?
The improvised route sounds fun, sadly Fire is the most resisted element in the game, so i'm not going into fire damage at all.

Ah, sling, that one i'm gonna add for sure XD!

You won't get Dex to damage until you have both Weapon Finesse and a weapon with Agile on it. Which means you're eating that strength penalty to damage for several painful levels. Probably until you hit 6th level.

Or you could go Swashbuckler, and use a one-handed piercing weapon.

Also having a 5 strength is going to make wearing armor and using weapons very difficult. Being a low strength melee class is very painful.
Quote:
Barbarian is also a class i like to play, but (if i'm not completely wrong) i should prioritize DEX on STR on my choices right?

this is the character i played in the "we be goblins" series. i know you said no 'unchained' so you can easily adjust to go with a regular barbarian. in our home game, using hero lab, you can take up to 2 flaws to get an extra feat per flaw. my starting build revolved around being a reach attacker who could swing over the heads of his allies (being an oversized goblin) using a FAUCHARD (exotic weapon pole-arm), power attack & cleave. perhaps others can help you build a devastating demolisher of dim-witted delvers (DDoDD, ;-) or titan mauler, perhaps).

Gnudtae Eatdung
Male oversized goblin unchained barbarian 1 (Pathfinder RPG Monster Codex 104, Pathfinder Unchained 8)
CN Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4 (+6 to hear noise)
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 17 (1d12+5)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +0
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee mwk cold iron fauchard +4 (1d10+9/18-20) or
. . unarmed strike +4 (1d3+6 nonlethal)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with masterwork cold iron fauchard)
Special Attacks rage (8 rounds/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fauchard), Power Attack
Traits advantageous distraction, big ears, reactionary
Flaws blind rage, gullible
Skills Acrobatics +2 (+6 to jump), Bluff -3, Diplomacy -3, Disguise -3, Perception +4 (+6 to hear noise), Ride +6, Stealth +6, Survival +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
Languages Goblin
SQ fast movement
Other Gear zebrahide armor, buckler, mwk cold iron fauchard, 150 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Advantageous Distraction (1/day) - 0/1
Rage (Unchained, 8 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/8
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (Unchained, 8 rounds/day) (Ex) As a free action, gain temp hp, bonus to melee att/dam, thrown dam, will saves, but AC penalty and limited actions. 1 min fatigue when ended.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

Thanks Meirril.
So, going Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) i could fix the DEX to hit and damage already at level 1 right? being allowed to dump STR and avoid suffering the first levels?
[STR: 5 DEX: 17 CON: 13 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 14]
Armours are not a problem for a Swashbuckler, he can use only light so, problem fixed.

Thanks Nemesis.
The fact is that i'm not going to play an oversized goblin, the flavour of the race is that they're small and their bonus and malus represent their nature.

Inspired blade is good but also uses rapiers. If you are willing to get away from goblin weapons, I think gunslinger is a good fit.

I assume your table ignores encumbrance intirely if you're ok with a strength of 5.

Arcane Duelist Bard would still be pretty effective.

Arcane Strike, bonded weapon, and scaling with level medium and heavy armor proficiencies (along with the ability to cast in said armors without penalties). Plus cool Fighter feats like Disruptive/Spellbreaker and Penetrating Strike.

Take the Battle Singer Goblin feat, sing courageous songs in the hideous Goblin language to inspire your hideous Goblin comrades.

If you want to use a dogslicer, Slashing Grace lets your slashing weapon count as a piercing weapon.

The problem with Inspired Blade is that you won’t be able to use piranha strike or power attack. That really hurts. I, personally, would be willing to delay DEX to damage in order to use a light weapon, even if it means levels one and two will be defensive/support levels, using parry and ~20 AC to tank, flanking and aiding another, etc.

Regarding encumbrance, 5 STR really isn’t that bad - though tables vary, obviously. Early on, you can’t carry much more than your armor and weapon, but that’s fine. Get someone with a higher STR modifier to carry all your other junk. That’s what teamwork’s for. And muleback cords are cheap.

So Why, I’m kind of leery of your stat array [STR: 5 DEX: 17 CON: 13 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 14] . The DEX, CON, and possibly WIS strike me as kind of low - what method of stat generation are you using?
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:

If you want to use a dogslicer, Slashing Grace lets your slashing weapon count as a piercing weapon.

The problem with Inspired Blade is that you won’t be able to use piranha strike or power attack. That really hurts. I, personally, would be willing to delay DEX to damage in order to use a light weapon, even if it means levels one and two will be defensive/support levels, using parry and ~20 AC to tank, flanking and aiding another, etc.

Regarding encumbrance, 5 STR really isn’t that bad - though tables vary, obviously. Early on, you can’t carry much more than your armor and weapon, but that’s fine. Get someone with a higher STR modifier to carry all your other junk. That’s what teamwork’s for. And muleback cords are cheap.

So Why, I’m kind of leery of your stat array [STR: 5 DEX: 17 CON: 13 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 14] . The DEX, CON, and possibly WIS strike me as kind of low - what method of stat generation are you using?

Effortless Lace permits the use of piranha strike with a rapier.

So, just to give this a good talking about: what is being done to get dex to damage is using 3 feats: Weapon Finesse + Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace.

Inspired Blade gets weapon finesse and weapon focus (rapier) for free, so you can take Slashing Grace as your 1st level feat and have it ready for first level. You could talk to your GM and see if he'll let you shift that to Dogslicer and you'll be good for using 1 single dogslicer as a weapon. Unfortunately you can't mix Slashing Grace and TWF.

Another option would be to replace Slashing Grace with Bladed Brush which would make you a Shaylin worshiper and using a Glaive. Again, you could ask your GM to switch it from a Glaive to a Horseslicer. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to get a Goblin the 3 feats needed to do this at first level. But its possible to get this working by 2nd level if you are a fighter, or dip fighter.

And if you seriously want to be a Goblin Barbarian let me suggest Savage Technologist which lets your goblin mix dogslicers and guns.

Thank you folks!
(didn't found anything to TAG people yet so, i'm gonna write down answers by names).

Melkiador
I'm planning to be melee focused and not ranged (even if the range of gunslinger is still a short range, he fits in the "ranged fighters" in my opinion).
Focusing on a rapier won't be a problem, i could always have a dogslicer on me for RP pourposes even if using that one off-combat only.

Daw
No, we don't ignore it. I've already had a 5STR PC in the past, and i just let my party help with it.

Voodist
Reading right now.

Asmodeus
I think that negotiating with my GM a change between dogslicer and rapier is the way here (so even if your dice is smaller, you qualify for Piranha Strike) as said by Meirril.
I'm using 20points to buy characteristics.

bornoffire
Effortless Lace? I'm taking a look into this!

Meirril
Ok asking my GM for a swap done for mainly RP pourposes sounds fine for me, is definitely the way to go.

For TWF, reading posts around, seems to be feat-hungry, so probably not the best way to go for a swashbuckler?

Shaylin=Shelyn? I don't like too much that goddess for a Gobbo, sounds like a pacifist hippie of 80's XD!

Savage Technologist sounds fun, but uneffective in my opinion; it's a strange mix.

Here is my goblin swashigator. I only have a copy of him at level 10 so you’ll have to work backwards but at least it gives an idea of what you will look like in the future. Zaxl fancied himself a pirate captain so he has a few piratey items and skills. He may not be terribly optimized as I do tend to make some sacrifices for RP sake but he’s still pretty badass IMHO. The statblock listed includes his mutagen and long term (10 min/level) buffs.

Zaxl Foulslip
Male goblin investigator 9/swashbuckler (inspired blade) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 156)
CN Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 31, touch 20, flat-footed 23 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +8 Dex, +6 natural, +1 size)
hp 104 (10 HD; 9d8+1d10+39) (currently 92)
Fort +12, Ref +20, Will +12; +6 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 inspired rapier +20/+15 (1d4+9/18-20)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache, opportune parry and riposte), panache (4), studied combat (+4, 3 rounds), studied strike +3d6
Investigator Extracts Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +12)
3rd—fly, haste, heroism
2nd—barkskin, blur, false life, false life
1st—cure light wounds, cure light wounds, cure light wounds, heightened awareness[ACG], shield
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 26, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +6; CMD 23
Feats Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Fencing Grace[UI], Graceful Athlete, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Piranha Strike, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits color thief, pragmatic activator
Skills Acrobatics +20, Appraise +5, Bluff +5, Climb +20, Craft (alchemy) +10 (+19 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +5, Disable Device +26, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +22, Fly +12, Heal +2, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (engineering) +12, Knowledge (geography) +12, Knowledge (history) +12, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +12, Knowledge (nobility) +12, Knowledge (planes) +12, Knowledge (religion) +12, Linguistics +9, Perception +17, Profession (sailor) +8, Ride +14, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +24, Survival +2, Swim +20, Use Magic Device +18; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
Languages Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Goblin, Orc
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +9), inspiration (1d8, 7/day), inspired panache, investigator talents (amazing inspiration[ACG], combat inspiration[ACG], graceful athlete, mutagen[UM], quick study[ACG]), keen recollection, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 90 minutes), poison lore, swift alchemy, trapfinding +4
Combat Gear mutagen[APG], pirate's eye patch[UE]; Other Gear +3 darkleaf cloth leather armor, +1 inspired rapier, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), besmara's tricorne, cloak of resistance +2, effortless lace, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, backpack, investigator starting formula book, masterwork thieves' tools, small tent, 2,465 gp, 8 sp, 9 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +9 (Su) +9 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deeds
Fencing Grace Use Dexterity on rapier damage rolls
Graceful Athlete Apply your Dexterity bonus to Climb and Swim checks in place of Strength.
Inspiration (+1d8, 7/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Inspired Panache (Ex) Gain no panache from killing blow, only from rapier crits.
Keen Recollection At 3rd level, an investigator can attempt all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Mutagen This discovery gives the alchemist the mutagen class ability, as described in the Advanced Player's Guide. (This discovery exists so alchemist archetypes who have variant mutagens, such as the mindchemist, can learn how to make standard mutage
Mutagen (DC 17) (Su) Mutagen adds +4/-2 to physical/mental attributes, and +2 nat. armor for 90 minutes.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Poison Lore (Ex) After 1 min can use Know to ID poisons, 1 min more to neutralize with Craft (alchemy).
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Studied Combat (+4, 3 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +3d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) Construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +4 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.

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Thank you for sharing born of fire!
I see you took mainly investigator levels in your build, is that a bad idea on going full inspired blade?
Silver Crusade

Born of fire's build is a classic "Swashtigator", which is a build for a dex-based Investigator. The single level of Inspired Blade is to get dex to damage right away.

Swashbuckler is generally considered a dipping class by optimizers. The swashtigator should be much more versatile by comparison, with no real loss in power.
So Why? wrote:

Thank you for sharing born of fire!

I see you took mainly investigator levels in your build, is that a bad idea on going full inspired blade?

What they said.

Also, I find straight martial characters very boring to play. YMMV.
Silver Crusade
1 person marked this as a favorite.

The Swashtigator makes a great rogue that isn't a Rogue.

Thanks folks!!
Anyway this doesn't exclude a straight full swashbuckler could be viable right?
Which classes do synergize well with Swashbuckler?
1 person marked this as a favorite.
PCScipio wrote:
The Swashtigator makes a great rogue that isn't a Rogue.

Very much so. The swashigator out-rogues a rogue on the roguey-est day of its life while using an electrified rogue-ing machine.

Straight swashbuckler works fine, it’s viable, even one of the stronger martial classes - but it is true that the class is rather front loaded. There’s no particularly compelling reason to keep taking levels in Swashbuckler after fifth, and you still get your best class features if you only take one level in the class.

Leaving Swashbuckler means you won’t get to add your entire level to your damage rolls, means that you won’t have as many uses of Charmed Life, could mean you don’t have the ability at all. In return, you get whatever it is your new class is giving you.
So Why? wrote:
I consider that probably INT is going to be a "dump" stat for me, since i value too much that CHA so i'm not too much interested in swapping those two for some skills (helps for RP flavour also, goblins aren't that smart).
Hold that thought.
Quote:
Thanks Asmodeus. Then i'm avoiding rogues (other SA attacks dependent classes are still viable or not?). DEX as main stat, noted.

The things humans can't do well as a rogue, and that halflings can quite decently, goblins are nearly best-in-game at if not actually best-in-game. Being size small with a +4 attribute? That's like having a permanent +2 attack bonus over any normal-sized race with a +2 modifier to whatever stat they're using. Then there are racial traits like Goblin Foolhardiness, which up your attack bonuses another +1 in common rogue situations -- so who's complaining about not being full-BAB now? Not you. Then, go look at the Favored Class Options for goblin rogues; if you can manage some first-round full-attacking gimmicks, you're an unholy terror.

Out-of-box, you are +9 higher Stealth than a human rogue, and +5 over a halfling.

Quote:
Is there a way to get Barbarian do that maybe?

kinda....

~ ~ ~

STR- 5
Dex++ 21 (17,14,14,14,7,7 20pt array)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA- 5

Traits: Bruising Intellect, Reactionary
01 Bloodrager1 [Id Rager(Whimsy:Improved Dirty Trick)/Urban], Agile Maneuvers
02 uRogue1 [Weapon Finesse]
03 uRogue2 [evasion][Combat Trick:TWF], Extra Rage
04 uRogue3 [dex>damage:dagger]
05 uRogue4 [Trick:Combat Swipe(Improved Steal)], Improved Initiative

Thanks folks!
So okay, usually they use Swashbuckler to get dex to hit and damage (i imagine that they are doing something similar with the unchained rogue maybe?) to play another class, got it!

Maybe this stuff could work to play straight rogue too? Also, why exactly the vanilla rogue (not unchained) isn't working that good compared to other classes?(i'm curious)

Investigator honestly doesn't feel like a class i like. It's INT based right? I see some utility for out-combat actions, but how does it feels when you're fighting?

I'm going to try to write down some build to find what exactly fits for me (maybe a Inspired blade 1/ Investigator X, a full Inspired Blade, an Inspired Blade 1/Rogue X just to see how they work with the Goblin).
Advices as always much appreciated!!

The mainly issue i can see with rogue is what do you do when the monster is immune to your SA?

Things being immune to sneak attack damage is why it's important to offer more than just sneak attack damage.

If you have alchemy, you can buff, heal, throw bombs, etc. Versatility is important.

It's why I mentioned the Bard as a Charisma based combatant. Buff, heal, Inspire Courage, awesome utility magics. Skills galore.

If you're set on the Swashbuckler thing, all of these get/use Panache...
Kata Master Monks (unarmed strikes)
Hooded Champion Rangers (bows)
Virtuous Bravo Paladins
Daring Champion Cavaliers

Kata Master Monk and Hooded Champion Ranger each only requires a one level dip to expand your useable Panache to include your unarmed strikes and your bow.

Virtuous Bravo and Daring Champion both get a class feature that will stack with the Monk's AC bonus if you wanted to ditch your armor entirely. The monk's ki pool is interchangeable with his Panache, too.

Inspired Blade 1/ Kata Master 1/ Hooded Champion 1/ Virtuous Bravo X has Dexterity to damage, Smite Evil, Panache with rapiers and unarmed strikes and bows, Panache pool based on both Charisma and intelligence, and an interchangeable ki pool based on wisdom. Best Swashbuckler, ever.

If you want to do rogue stuff... Snakebite Brawler or Stygian Slayer will be much better for a melee focused combatant.

There's a couple of problems with the core Rogue that hold it back from being a powerful class.

The first is the inconsistency of Sneak Attack. The typical way to get Sneak Attack is to use it from stealth, or while flanking. Stealth only works for one attack every fight, after that they know you're there. Flanking has a number of problems. The first is that you have to move past your enemy to flank them, which sometimes provokes an Attack of Opportunity and always prevents you from full attacking. The second is, that even after you've safely gotten into flanking position, you aren't safe in flanking position - you're on the other side of the enemy than your team, so if you need emergency healing, or an escape route, you're up the creek without a paddle; no one can get to you. And then some things are just immune to Sneak Attack. For these reasons, often you'll not be able to use your Sneak Attack in a fight, and without Sneak Attack you simply won't be doing appreciable damage.

The second thing holding back the core Rogue is inaccuracy. Rogues have 3/4 BAB, which means they'll never hit as often as, say, a Fighter or a Swashbuckler. Many 3/4 BAB classes, such as the Investigator or Bard, have a way to boost their bonus to hit and keep pace - Rogues don't have one. If you play a rogue, be prepared to spend feats and gold just trying to keep up with everyone else, accuracy-wise.

The third problem people have, is that Rogue's tend to have not-awesome AC, on account of wearing lighter armor than everyone else. This in particular is unlikely to be a huge problem in your case, on account of your crazy-good DEX and small size.

The fourth thing holding Rogues back is their lousy saves. Their only strong save is Reflex, and admittedly they're pretty darn awesome at Reflex - but Will and Fortitude saves are debilitating if you fail them. If you play a Rogue, for the love of all things holy invest in your saves. Traits, items, feats if you can spare them - get your Will and Fort up.

And then, the fourth common complaint about Rogues, is that when it comes to skill at skills, many other classes are better.

Unchained Rogues fix the first three of the Rogue's problems by granting DEX to damage (meaning they can still do something when they can't Sneak Attack) and Debilitating Injury (which boosts a rogue's to-hit or AC, after they get a sneak attack off). Skill Unlocks also returned the Rogue to it's rightful place as skill monarch.

But all this isn't to say that you can't play a core Rogue if you want to - or even make a pretty strong one. If you go that route, I cannot recommend the feat Gang Up strongly enough. It will increase your ability to get Sneak Attack's off a thousand-fold.
Silver Crusade
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
The second thing holding back the core Rogue is inaccuracy. Rogues have 3/4 BAB, which means they'll never hit as often as, say, a Fighter or a Swashbuckler. Many 3/4 BAB classes, such as the Investigator or Bard, have a way to boost their bonus to hit and keep pace - Rogues don't have one. If you play a rogue, be prepared to spend feats and gold just trying to keep up with everyone else, accuracy-wise.

The accuracy problem is real. I recall one fight at the end of book 5 of one particular AP, where our 14th lvl party faced a CR 19. My character (a Dawnflower Dervish Bard) teleported the Unchained Rogue into flank using Bard's Escape; the rogue, buffed with Haste and Good Hope, rolled pretty well — and missed with all three attacks (AC 38)! Meanwhile, my character scored 100% hits that encounter (I needed to roll 7+ to hit, so not missing at all was very good luck).

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