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I’m sure this has been asked before, but there are a few archetypes out there for rogue/monk/etc. that get rid of evasion but not improved evasion. Is there a rule for that? Does getting rid of evasion also nix improved? Do you just get normal evasion when you would get improved? Do you always take half damage from Reflex saves? (half from successful save, half from failed save?)
You get normal evasion when the class would normal improved evasion.
I don't have a link, but the rule is:
For an archetype loses "X" but not "Improved X", when you would normally get "Improved X" you gain "X" instead.
I saw this recently with White Haired Witch. At 18th level, you can pick from a list of advanced rogue talents, and improved evasion is listed as an option. Witch doesn't get evasion by default, so can they only pick it if they get evasion from elsewhere? They didn't swap out evasion, and improved evasion doesn't state evasion as a requirement.
I saw this recently with White Haired Witch. At 18th level, you can pick from a list of advanced rogue talents, and improved evasion is listed as an option. Witch doesn't get evasion by default, so can they only pick it if they get evasion from elsewhere? They didn't swap out evasion, and improved evasion doesn't state evasion as a requirement.... TEEEEEECHNICALLY, if the Advanced Rogue Talent that gives you Improved Evasion does not explicitly require Evasion or another talent that grants it, this bypasses the rule for it. To answer the question, Improved Evasion (the Advanced Rogue Talent) does NOT require Evasion from any source. This is why the specific trumps the general, in this very specific case, yes. Either a rogue that sacrifices both Evasion and Improved Evasion or any class that has an archetype that gives them an advanced rogue talent can, in fact, take the Improved Evasion Rogue Talent without having Evasion. While this IS rules as written, I have a suspicion that it is not actually rules as intended. But it IS PFS safe.
So, just to be clear, if a class or archetype explicitly gives improved evasion (not from a list of choices) but loses evasion, they get evasion and NOT improved evasion.
If a class or archetype does not give evasion and lets you CHOOSE improved evasion from a list of choices, you get improved evasion even tho you don't have evasion.
There's something somewhere (which I can't find right now, but I'm fairly sure the example was Fighter Weapon Training or Armour Training) that talks about getting delayed versions of class abilities if an earlier one is replaced, which would give the Monk Evasion instead of Improved Evasion
This?
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
From here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/class-archetypes/) under Archetype "Stacking"
... Then how does a familiar start with Improved Evasion without ever having to get normal Evasion?
Evasion is not a numerically improved class skill like the examples given in that ruling (Weapon Training/Favored Enemy/ Sneak Attack).
If we are going off the base assumption of 'you need x before x2' then familiars get evasion, not improved evasion and there's never been errata from the core book on this.
OR
Evasion is merely a separate ability that becomes overwritten by Improved Evasion.
... Then how does a familiar start with Improved Evasion without ever having to get normal Evasion?
Evasion is not a numerically improved class skill like the examples given in that ruling (Weapon Training/Favored Enemy/ Sneak Attack).
If we are going off the base assumption of 'you need x before x2' then familiars get evasion, not improved evasion and there's never been errata from the core book on this.
OR
Evasion is merely a separate ability that becomes overwritten by Improved Evasion.
Or ... specific > general and familiars have their own specific rule.
Or ... specific > general and familiars have their own specific rule.
But it does show the one ability can exist without previous existence of the other, even if they are a specific rule. Used familiars as a base for this as if one can't exist without the other then why do they start with the Improved version? It might be a specific, but shows it can exist without the other, so why break rules if just for one thing?
Even when looking at the class abilities, base and improved are listed as two separate abilities with a clause under the base evasion of if another class would give you it, you get improved instead, insinuating you are keeping evasion, gaining improved evasion, and they both exist at any given time and don't erase the ability.
If you take a die progression out of sneak attack however, the rules say the next time you would gain a die, you follow the next in order (because counting goes 1, 2, 3 not 1, 3, 8), and you're swapping out the previous iteration with a new instance at a higher numerical value (something of which evasion/improved evasion and even uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge don't have).
And beside specific rules even state when they override the rules, of which familiars improved evasion has no overwriting clause in its wording.
And beside specific rules even state when they override the rules, of which familiars improved evasion has no overwriting clause in its wording.
** spoiler omitted **
Familiars are about as specific as rules get.
Many of their abilities work in unique ways.
Rather, familiar’s improved evasion isn’t the same ability that rogues have. It’s like how the celestial template smite is different than paladin smite,though they have the same name and similar functions, they are not the same ability and do not work exactly the same.
And there may be other character options that grant their own version of improved evasion, but I suspect many of them say they work as the rogue ability which is limited by stages.
... Then how does a familiar start with Improved Evasion without ever having to get normal Evasion?
Monsters, Animal Companions and Familiars are not PCs, they do use different rules.
Also it's highly likely that the reason familiars get "Improved Evasion" but not "Evasion" has more to do with printing space than an intention to be cited in other cirumstances.
If we look at the relevant FAQ (full quote above)
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability...
If "Improved Evasion" isn't an "improvement" for "Evasion" then what's this FAQ referring to? (The clue is in the name)
Both the Monk and Rogue versions even refer to Evasion in their text.
The confusion is probably more to do with legacy than anything else - from memory, in DnD 3.5 Rogues got Improved Evasion as a class ability, while in PF it was changed to a talent to be chosen. At the time of Improved Evasion's publication there were no archetypes. No text was needed to state that it was an improved version since the only people who could get Improved Evasion would already have Evasion.
Paizo have stated many times that their books are not written in "Legalese", and sometimes abilities are written by someone who doesn't have 100% knowledge of the rules mechanics of the game (who does really?).
I'm sure there are still people who will disagree with me, and that's the joy of using human brains to interpret rules. All I can say to those people is "BAD WRONG FUN!" ... No but seriosuly as long as your group is enjoying themselves then you do you (and I would definitely check with the GM before taking Improved Evasion without Evasion).
The confusion is probably more to do with legacy than anything else - from memory, in DnD 3.5 Rogues got Improved Evasion as a class ability, while in PF it was changed to a talent to be chosen. At the time of Improved Evasion's publication there were no archetypes. No text was needed to state that it was an improved version since the only people who could get Improved Evasion would already have Evasion.
The only things they changed from 3.5 to pathfinder about this is the name (special abilities instead of advanced talents) and the frequency of getting them (every three levels instead of two). Improved Evasion has been a selection since 3.0, not a given.
Not that that really matters :-)