So I'm making a Tengu Unchained rogue, Tiger trance, and scout archetype build so I can charge someone and get pounce and unload a bunch of attacks in a single round. Well don't ninjas kind of do this better? I mean they just go invisible and throw a ton of shurikens at someone and get Sneak attack on all of their attacks right? So is there a good reason to play this Tengu unchained rogue build instead of a ninja?
A personal preference for flavor over mechanics?
While vanishing trick is amazingly good, and other ninja tricks are very useful, it doesn't make up for all the things you're missing out on compared to the unchained rogue. The swordmaster archetype is notably incompatible with the ninja so you'd also be losing out on that. The ninja simply hasn't gotten much in the way of support over the years, and you're taking a steep downgrade in combat power to get access to those powers.
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So I'm making a Tengu Unchained rogue, Tiger trance, and scout archetype build so I can charge someone and get pounce and unload a bunch of attacks in a single round. Well don't ninjas kind of do this better? I mean they just go invisible and throw a ton of shurikens at someone and get Sneak attack on all of their attacks right? So is there a good reason to play this Tengu unchained rogue build instead of a ninja?
A ninja's Vanishing Trick is limited to one attack per use (your first attack makes you visible).
Invisible Blade overcomes this limitation, but is not available until 10, at which point you should assume a good number of your opponents will still be able to sense you somehow.The obvious strength of the Unchained Rogue is the (relative) ease with which they get 'dex to dmg' which probably makes them better combatants at levels 3 - 8 or so (past that point, Agile weapon enchants should level the field).
Thanks for the insight Taja and Dasrak!
So I'm making a Tengu Unchained rogue, Tiger trance, and scout archetype build so I can charge someone and get pounce and unload a bunch of attacks in a single round. Well don't ninjas kind of do this better? I mean they just go invisible and throw a ton of shurikens at someone and get Sneak attack on all of their attacks right? So is there a good reason to play this Tengu unchained rogue build instead of a ninja?The problem with pounce is that, if you're not immediately victorious, you are left standing in the full-attack zone of a now very angry monster. As a d8 class and Con-penalized race, that will likely prove problematic.
While vanishing trick is amazingly good, and other ninja tricks are very useful, it doesn't make up for all the things you're missing out on compared to the unchained rogue.
The obvious strength of the Unchained Rogue is the (relative) ease with which they get 'dex to dmg' which probably makes them better combatants at levels 3 - 8 or so (past that point, Agile weapon enchants should level the field).
Unchained rogue circa now represents an upgrade over Ninja -- but then so does core rogue too, because either now qualifies for the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype.
....Aside from spells, what else does Eldritch Scoundrel have going for it? -- It lets you raid Ninja tricks (e.g., Flurry of Stars, yay!) and pay for Ki with spell-slots. This uncouples charisma and de-MADs your ninja build. Not to mention that you're also qualified for Arcane Trickster without multiclassing.
Unchained rogue circa now represents an upgrade over Ninja -- but then so does core rogue too, because either now qualifies for the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype.
Eldritch Scoundrel is superb with the unchained rogue and a great way of getting access to ninja tricks, although it has a valley of suck at level 1 and 2. Using the core rogue with Eldritch Scoundrel, however, never really pulls free of its valley of suck and it's just really underwhelming for your entire career. I'd much sooner take Ninja over a core Rogue Eldritch Scoundrel.
Not to mention that you're also qualified for Arcane Trickster without multiclassing.
Arcane Trickster is a completely different build and has no practical synergy with Eldritch Scoundrel. Wizard/Rogue multiclass is vastly superior as an entry.
Use the retraining rules and skip over that valley of suck. (Or be Snakebite brawler at 1st level.)Unchained rogue circa now represents an upgrade over Ninja -- but then so does core rogue too, because either now qualifies for the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype.Eldritch Scoundrel is superb with the unchained rogue and a great way of getting access to ninja tricks, although it has a valley of suck at level 1 and 2.
Using the core rogue with Eldritch Scoundrel, however, never really pulls free of its valley of suck and it's just really underwhelming for your entire career. I'd much sooner take Ninja over a core Rogue Eldritch Scoundrel.
Core rogue sucks in PFS; any other campaign, charisma is your highest stat and you take Desna's Shooting Star. -- Then you don't need Weapon Finesse or a dex-to-damage mechanism at all. (The only difference then is how much you think you need Debilitating Injury or Rogue's Edge.)
My halfling core rogue in PFS used a variety of weapons (only one of which was Weapon Finesse-applicable), and I had a blast with him. Unchained, IMO, merely makes the class a little more viable for race/stat combinations the core class wasn't designed for initially (e.g., the typical human "melee strength rogue" who infamously dies like a mouse in PFS...but those are rants for other threads, of which there are many).
--What I really liked about that halfling is the way he just waltzed through blaster magic that left the rest of the party wheezing even when they made their saves. The loss of Evasion is an extreme aggravation with Paizo's Ninja, because there's no better neon-flashing fireball-magnet on the battlefield than the 10' smoke-cube that all those painful shurikens are zinging out of.
Not to mention that you're also qualified for Arcane Trickster without multiclassing.Arcane Trickster is a completely different build and has no practical synergy with Eldritch Scoundrel. Wizard/Rogue multiclass is vastly superior as an entry.
You'll note that I did not claim that Eldritch Scoundrel was the best of all possible entries into Arcane Trickster. For AT to be viable in an ES build, it only has to bring something to the table that the player wants more than delaying ES/uR aspects.
Use the retraining rules and skip over that valley of suck. (Or be Snakebite brawler at 1st level.)
Not every campaign gives you the opportunity to go and retrain your classes whenever you like. If that offers on the table then great, but you can't count on it.
--What I really liked about that halfling is the way he just waltzed through blaster magic that left the rest of the party wheezing even when they made their saves. The loss of Evasion is an extreme aggravation with Paizo's Ninja, because there's no better neon-flashing fireball-magnet on the battlefield than the 10' smoke-cube that all those painful shurikens are zinging out of.
Eh, if you're making your save you're taking half damage. Not the end of the world, and I'd much rather have the extra sneak attack damage to quickly eliminate whatever is hucking the fireballs.
For AT to be viable in an ES build, it only has to bring something to the table that the player wants more than delaying ES/uR aspects.
The problem is the 1/2 BAB of the Arcane Trickster. It doesn't just delay your URogue features, it reduces your attack bonus progression to the extent at which it actively worsens the URogue class features you already had.
There are some unconventional builds that can make Eldritch Scoundrel into Arcane Trickster work, but for a more conventional build you're much better off entering as a Rogue/Wizard.
Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue >> Ninja. Access to spells is pretty much the most powerful thing in the game.
Because Paizo thinks that wizards deserve everything, there are even a number of wizard spells you can access that basically replicate Rogue class features. Like Knock, Find Trap, and Aram Zey's Focus. Then there's stuff to help out your sneak attack, like Sense Vitals and Twilight Knife. Can't forget the spells that make you far better at stealth, like Vanish, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Penumbral Disguise, etc. And while we're on the subject of skills, there are of course the whole host of spells that invalidate skills, like Charm Person invalidating Diplomacy, or spells that give you ludicrous bonuses to skills, like Acute Senses giving you a +30 to Perception.
So yeah, Spells >> everything else in Pathfinder. Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue can get spells. Ninja cannot. Therefore, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue >> Ninja.
Probably depends on your group and how hard your GM leans on difficult fights.
Can't forget the spells that make you far better at stealth, like Vanish, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Penumbral Disguise, etc. And while we're on the subject of skills, there are of course the whole host of spells that invalidate skills, like Charm Person invalidating Diplomacy, or spells that give you ludicrous bonuses to skills, like Acute Senses giving you a +30 to Perception.
This is... really not true.
Stealth has no resource expenditure so it can be used pretty much any time you don't need to be moving at full speed, is completely inconspicuous (unlike invisibility which is obvious spellcasting), and doesn't have a duration limit. Stealth is also harder to beat by magical means; there are loads of spells or magic items that can beat invisibility, but very few options to beat stealth other than just raising perception.
Charm Person is not a substitute for diplomacy by any stretch of the imagination. There are many situations where if you attempt to cast charm person the GM response is "roll for initiative", because the very act of casting a spell is seen as a hostile act - not just by the target, but everyone else in the room.
Acute Senses is crazy good, I will agree, but no one would ever take that as a reason to not pump perception. You want to have as many party members with a good perception score as possible. And it's not like Eldritch Scoundrel gets that spell anyways (bards do, though).
Knock isn't actually a very reliable spell. It's too intensive on spell slots at lower levels, and at higher levels the fact that you can't take 20 means that it's highly unreliable for high-DC locks. Fact is that a DC 40 lock is something a 10th level party could reasonably run into, and the party wizard has almost no chance of beating it with lock, but someone with max ranks in disable device can get through on a take 20.
So yeah, Spells >> everything else in Pathfinder. Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue can get spells. Ninja cannot. Therefore, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue >> Ninja.
If that's how you feel, just play a wizard. I guarantee you, they are really good when it comes to spells and you won't be disappointed if that's what you want to play. Heck, go Arcane Trickster if you like. It's great for this playstyle. Eldritch Scoundrel is a very different tack, and is a rogue first and a spellcaster second. You are on a 6-level track with limited spell slots, and you absolutely must bring other competencies to the table, both inside of combat and out. Otherwise you may as well have just been a wizard and gotten the way better spellcasting that comes with that.
--What I really liked about that halfling is the way he just waltzed through blaster magic that left the rest of the party wheezing even when they made their saves. The loss of Evasion is an extreme aggravation with Paizo's Ninja, because there's no better neon-flashing fireball-magnet on the battlefield than the 10' smoke-cube that all those painful shurikens are zinging out of.Eh, if you're making your save you're taking half damage. Not the end of the world, and I'd much rather have the extra sneak attack damage to quickly eliminate whatever is hucking the fireballs.
I'd much rather take no damage whatsoever and not care that the back-rank or flying enemy caster probably isn't anywhere near within my sneak-range -- as is usually the case when my smoke-cube gets lit up. Or fretting the possibility he has several more lined up, or that sorc minions hiding in the alcoves aren't about the overlap-bombard the battlefield with their AoEs. I have no worries prompting emergency healing or deassing the real-estate; I can just stay right where I am and keep zinging his ground troops.
Taking no damage is the best attrition-management.
For AT to be viable in an ES build, it only has to bring something to the table that the player wants more than delaying ES/uR aspects.The problem is the 1/2 BAB of the Arcane Trickster. It doesn't just delay your URogue features, it reduces your attack bonus progression to the extent at which it actively worsens the URogue class features you already had.
If you limited yourself to only five or six levels of AT, you'd be hurting only -1 BAB relatively in exchange for Ranger Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak, and Tricky Spells. (The loss of 1pt of BAB is less annoying, IMO, than the -1hp/lever from dropping down to d6s.)
This is... really not true.Stealth has no resource expenditure so it can be used pretty much any time you don't need to be moving at full speed, is completely inconspicuous (unlike invisibility which is obvious spellcasting), and doesn't have a duration limit. Stealth is also harder to beat by magical means; there are loads of spells or magic items that can beat invisibility, but very few options to beat stealth other than just raising perception.
Completely inconspicuous, unlike spellcasting? You can't use Stealth while observed. Period. Even if you aren't observed, you can't use Stealth without cover or concealment. Period. Invisibility can be cast anywhere, and at any time, and doesn't care who sees it happen or what conditions you have or don't have.
Need to get somewhere fast? You can run anywhere while invisible. You can charge from invisibility. If you have greater invisibility, you can even full attack while invisible. Basic Stealth offers none of that for you. No running, no charging, and even if you full attack from stealth, only your first attack gains any benefit.
Hell, invisibility can be cast on other people. This means that you can help other people escape from a dangerous situation (where Stealth is useless unless you have a high Bluff skill AND nearby cover/concealment to hide in). You can also have your entire party infiltrate a location with enough casts (minute/level duration is longer than you give it credit for, IMHO), meaning that if something goes wrong and you get spotted, you aren't stranded away from your party.
Stealth is so far and away inferior to Invisibility that I'm surprised you even mentioned it. Invisibility is a low level magic spell that requires ZERO investment, and it's superior to Stealth, which requires TONS just to be half as useful. Sure, Invisibilty has counters, but almost all of those counters are themselves also magic spells. It isn't countered by a featureless plain or turning on the lights.
Charm Person is not a substitute for diplomacy by any stretch of the imagination. There are many situations where if you attempt to cast charm person the GM response is "roll for initiative", because the very act of casting a spell is seen as a hostile act - not just by the target, but everyone else in the room.
You might not realize this, but there are a host of times where you can use Charm Person on singular targets, rather than in front of the King's Court on the King himself. In Jail? Charm the Warden. Want to get past a guarded door? Charm the Doorman. There are a million and one different ways in which you can use Charm Person to get what you want, and all of them far faster than taking 10 rounds to maybe use diplomacy on them multiple times (and thus, with multiple avenues for failure). And like invisibility, it's a low level spell that requires zero investment other than Spell DC (which affects literally all aspects of your character). And like Invisibility, it can do things that it's skill counterpart can't, like being used in battle. You can use Charm Person on an enemy, though they do get bonuses in certain cases. But you can never use Diplomacy on an enemy without massive investment.
Acute Senses is crazy good, I will agree, but no one would ever take that as a reason to not pump perception. You want to have as many party members with a good perception score as possible. And it's not like Eldritch Scoundrel gets that spell anyways (bards do, though).
I never said you shouldn't pump perception. My point here is that it takes far less investment for a caster to pump up a skill than it does for anyone else, while casters also have spells that completely negate the need for such skills. Like Detect Secret Door. Or Commune or insert other divination spell here that negate all need for Perception.
Knock isn't actually a very reliable spell. It's too intensive on spell slots at lower levels, and at higher levels the fact that you can't take 20 means that it's highly unreliable for high-DC locks. Fact is that a DC 40 lock is something a 10th level party could reasonably run into, and the party wizard has almost no chance of beating it with lock, but someone with max ranks in disable device can get through on a take 20.
10th level? The level where the Wizard can cast Dimension Door and Teleport? Yeah, I don't think locked doors are a problem for a wizard of this level.
If that's how you feel, just play a wizard. I guarantee you, they are really good when it comes to spells and you won't be disappointed if that's what you want to play. Heck, go Arcane Trickster if you like. It's great for this playstyle. Eldritch Scoundrel is a very different tack, and is a rogue first and a spellcaster second. You are on a 6-level track with limited spell slots, and you absolutely must bring other competencies to the table, both inside of combat and out. Otherwise you may as well have just been a wizard and gotten the way better spellcasting that comes with that.
The OP wanted to know which class was better, and I told him which one that was, and why. This has nothing to do with what I want to play. Speaking of which, I almost never play wizards, despite knowing how overpowered they are. I like to play well rounded characters that contribute to a group while giving everyone else time to shine, rather than being that person who regulates everyone else to cleanup duty. Or worse, the person who doesn't even leave anything left for others to clean up.
Completely inconspicuous, unlike spellcasting? You can't use Stealth while observed. Period.
That's untrue. The exceptions are broad enough that they almost swallow the rule entirely:
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
As a general rule for a more RP-heavy situation, if the observer is distracted you can use stealth. In a combat situation where you need to stealth, you can just run around a corner if you really need to sneak off.
Need to get somewhere fast? You can run anywhere while invisible. You can charge from invisibility. If you have greater invisibility, you can even full attack while invisible. Basic Stealth offers none of that for you. No running, no charging, and even if you full attack from stealth, only your first attack gains any benefit.
Enemies still get hearing-based perception checks against you. You can't make stealth checks while running, so you automatically are heard if you try to run. When moving while invisible it's only +20 to stealth, which sounds like a lot but if you aren't investing ranks in stealth won't actually be significantly better than stealth check the rogue is getting (typically once the rogue gets shadow armor, they'll be caught up, give or take).
As for charging, if you've got surprise (which you should have if stealth succeeded) then you can just break stealth and charge on the surprise round since the enemies will be flat-footed anyways. As an in-combat strategy after the start of combat, greater invisibility is definitely the better pick. But greater invisibility is more of a combat buff spell since its low duration makes it a bad choice for infiltration. Vanish and Invisibility I don't particularly like as in-combat options since their benefits go away the moment you attack and this makes the standard action to cast them questionable (Vanishing Trick with its swift action is another story).
You might not realize this, but there are a host of times where you can use Charm Person on singular targets, rather than in front of the King's Court on the King himself. In Jail? Charm the Warden. Want to get past a guarded door? Charm the Doorman. There are a million and one different ways in which you can use Charm Person to get what you want, and all of them far faster than taking 10 rounds to maybe use diplomacy on them multiple times (and thus, with multiple avenues for failure).
Yes, there are situations where charm spell is excellent. It's a great spell, no question about that. But it only handles a subset of the situations that diplomacy does, and as such can never replace it. In my experience, charm person often goes completely unused because diplomacy is simply a much safer option when there's a dedicated party face that's actually good at it.
10th level? The level where the Wizard can cast Dimension Door and Teleport? Yeah, I don't think locked doors are a problem for a wizard of this level.
Dimension Door is a 1-way trip. You'd need a second slot to get back. The number of ddoor slots required to navigate a dungeon with multiple locked doors adds up to unreasonable levels very quickly. It's very much not the first course of action you would jump to. You also can't dimension door into a locked treasure chest (the barbarian probably has the better solution in that respect if you lack a rogue to get in ;-)
Also dimension door has very strict target limits, and basically doesn't work for transporting the entire party if anyone has a familiar or an animal companion.
Anyways, magic is great but it has its limitations. Skills are great because they often ignore the limitations that magic does have. The ideal party reliable access to both magic and skills. Eldritch Scoundrel is great because it gives you both on one character, but by using core rogue you end up with something that is extraordinarily weak in combat and leaves you a non-combatant party member. There is no particularly need that you must have both magic and skills on the same character, but the loss of combat potency hurts the party substantially because combat is very much an "all hands on deck" situation. The ninja can't fill the spellcaster role, but it is much more potent in combat than a core rogue eldritch scoundrel ever could be, and the spellcasting niche can always be filled by someone else.
Nothing I wrote is untrue. Literally the first sentence of what you posted corroborates everything I stated. That you can't use Stealth while observed. Period. Even if you aren't observed, you need cover and concealment.
Running around a corner is less inconspicuous than casting a spell? Yeah, sure. You know that if the people in combat also turn the corner, you are automatically found because you no longer have cover, right? If you hide in dim light or darkness, you are automatically found by anybody with Darkvision, because you don't have concealment to them.
Stealth is far less reliable than Invisibility. And saying that the rogue needs X feats and costly expensive magic items to maybe approach the Stealth skill of a level 1 wizard with Vanish is literally proving my point. Magic can outdo skills with little to no investment. What do you think happens, pray tell, when the INT-based Wizard actually uses some of their skill ranks?
But you finally mentioned something worth discussing:
Eldritch Scoundrel is great because it gives you both on one character, but by using core rogue you end up with something that is extraordinarily weak in combat and leaves you a non-combatant party member. There is no particularly need that you must have both magic and skills on the same character, but the loss of combat potency hurts the party substantially because combat is very much an "all hands on deck" situation. The ninja can't fill the spellcaster role, but it is much more potent in combat than a core rogue eldritch scoundrel ever could be, and the spellcasting niche can always be filled by someone else.
To which I humbly disagree. For one, Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue can access most important ninja tricks, so there really isn't much there that makes a Ninja a better combatant.
Secondly, as you note, there are a number of combat capable spells that the Eldritch Scoundrel can cast, ranging from buff spells like Heroism, Enlarge/Reduce Person, Haste, Mirror Image, Sense Vitals Polymorph etc. to Area of Effect Damage spells like Burning Hands, Sleet Storm, Fireball, etc. to AoE battlefield control spells, like Obscuring Mist, Web, Black Tentacles, etc.
Long story short, spells make you better out of combat. But they also make you better in combat, too. They give you options that most martials don't have. What's a ninja going to do against an army of 30+ low level NPCs? The Eldritch Scoundrel can just cast Fireball. Enemy Boss has too much AC? Eldritch Scoundrel can cast buff spells like Heroism/Polymorph, or just rely on True Strike. Enemy Dragon too far away, abusing Flyby Attack? Eldritch Scoundrel can cast Haste/Fly/Dimension Door, or just attack at long range with spells.
What's an Invisible Ninja going to do...against other invisible ninjas?
Cuz Eldritch Scoundrel can cast See Invisibility.