My player sent me this sequence, which he is hoping I will confirm works. However, to avoid the sniping penalty of -20 to stealth, he stands in the open and just doesn't snipe, then on the next turn re-hides with no sniping penalty because he didn't snipe. How is it possible that being blatantly obvious gets a player no penalty at all?
1) In the surprise round I have the ability to have my initiative count as being a 20 rolled. Assuming I win initiative and unless my target has a way to avoid being flat footed, I can attack from within 30' and get sneak damage.
2) In the next round, when it is my initiative I can use a move action to go into concealment (assuming some is available) and stealth. Because I didn't snipe in the surprise round there is no after-sniping penalty to my stealth role. Assuming I achieve stealth, I can now sneak attack my target. I can then use my False Attacker talent and assuming I succeed, I wouldn't break stealth as to my target (although his friends know where I am).
3) In the next round, I activate rapid shot and shoot my previous target at -2. If I hit I get sneak damage. I then use false attacker and if successful I can do a second shot at that target also at -2 which, if it hits will also do sneak damage. My target and all his friends now know where I am.
4) In the next round I repeat #2, except now my stealth roll has the after-sniping penalty. I can then continue to repeat #3 and #4 for so long as I make my rolls.
tl;dr: my player has assembled what is essentially a poor man's version of Hide in Plain Sight with early access. Does it work? Why or why not?
Common Uses
HideYour Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Create a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Hide behind other Creatures
Source: Giant Hunter’s Handbook
Large bodies that break your opponent’s line of sight can sometimes be just as useful as darkness for hiding your position.
Special: Normally the soft cover provided by other creatures is not sufficient to allow you to attempt a Stealth check. Soft cover provided by creatures at least one size category larger than you does allow you to attempt Stealth checks against other creatures not already aware of your presence at a –10 penalty. If the creature providing the cover knows which square you occupy and is trying to avoid concealing you, this penalty increases to –20.
You can also hide from a creature by staying under its own body if it is at least two size categories larger than you and you are in its space. Such attempts also take a –10 penalty, which increases to a –20 penalty if the creature is aware you are in the area. If the creature moves away from you, you are automatically revealed, unless you have readied an action to move with it.
Sniping
If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Modifiers
Size Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Magic If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you’re moving.
Feats If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).
The -20 penalty to stealth after Sniping is for "maintaining your obscured location", and this penalty would not apply when initiating a new stealth attempt, such as to dive behind cover. It sounds like what your PC is wanting to do is Attack during a Surprise round, then in round one, enter stealth as a move action, then attack and use False Attacker to bluff his target in order to maintain stealth. This is completely kosher per the rules.
However, if he's being actively viewed (which is up to the GM), then he cannot stealth. If his trickery is getting out of hand, you can use this as GM fiat in some instances. But if he wants to be able to stealth while being actively viewed, he needs to have Hellcat Stealth.
Hellcat Stealth
You are difficult to see in the light.
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealth 6 ranks.
Benefit: You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty.
Normal: You cannot make Stealth checks while observed.
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So, breakdown of the player's turn:
1) In the surprise round I have the ability to have my initiative count as being a 20 rolled. Assuming I win initiative and unless my target has a way to avoid being flat footed, I can attack from within 30' and get sneak damage.
--this is fine so far. the player is making the assumption that they're starting the surprise round within 30 feet so that's one potential fail point.
2) In the next round, when it is my initiative I can use a move action to go into concealment (assuming some is available) and stealth. Because I didn't snipe in the surprise round there is no after-sniping penalty to my stealth role. Assuming I achieve stealth, I can now sneak attack my target. I can then use my False Attacker talent and assuming I succeed, I wouldn't break stealth as to my target (although his friends know where I am).
--This is also fine so far. Note however that False Attacker has a few caveats. It uses an immediate action (so it can't be applied to more than one attack), and it requires the rogue to maintain concealment or cover. that means, generally, that the enemy will also be benefiting from concealment or cover due to how it is determined. this is important because a rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment. Oh, and everyone watched them walk to the bush/whatever they're using for cover so they're gambling that none of the enemies are going to act on that information.
3) In the next round, I activate rapid shot and shoot my previous target at -2. If I hit I get sneak damage. I then use false attacker and if successful I can do a second shot at that target also at -2 which, if it hits will also do sneak damage. My target and all his friends now know where I am.
--This is also fine, but again cover and/or concealment may apply to enemies as well and may prevent the character from dealing sneak attack damage.
4) In the next round I repeat #2, except now my stealth roll has the after-sniping penalty. I can then continue to repeat #3 and #4 for so long as I make my rolls.
This is fine, but here are the tradeoffs:
1 round: normal surprise - enemy is aware of their location.
2 round: only makes one attack regardless of number of attacks they're entitled to. enemy is aware of their general location, but they are stealthed
3 round: can make up to two attacks maximum in this way regardless of number of attacks they might have, enemies are aware of location
4 round: again is making only one attack
some other notes:
if you're sadistic, you could apply some bluff penalties to false attacker, such as a -20 (the lie is impossible) if none of the enemies are carrying bows/arrows or a smaller penalty if they've got crossbows/were in full sight during the attack/whatever. But make sure to let your player know you're going to do this so they can plan on not ever using false attacker.
sneak attack damage looks great, but is rarely AS great as it appears. Assuming you've got a dex rogue character here, at level three you're looking at 1d8+2d6 or an average of 11.5 damage per attack. In comparison, a barbarian with a greatsword is swinging 2d6+10 (or more) for an average of 17 damage per attack. The rogue is also less likely to hit, and has situational conditions on their damage (being able to apply sneak attack).
creatures that primarily use other senses are much more difficult to sneak attack from range
And, to be honest, sniping has never been great. (though some builds can make it better)
Magicdealer raises a good point, and it's not even 'being sadistic'.
Whenever the rogue strikes a foe from hiding, she can attempt a Bluff check as an immediate action (opposed by the target’s Sense Motive or Perception check, whichever has a higher bonus) before rolling damage to convince the foe that another creature was the attacker. This Bluff check applies the normal modifiers for convincing a creature of a falsehood, but can be accomplished with just physical trickery (a shared language is not required). If the Bluff is successful, and the rogue maintains concealment or cover, the rogue’s stealth does not end.
It's one thing to attack one of two gunmen in a duel, which both have reason to suspect the other, and a whole other bluff check to convince two lovers that their partner stabbed them with an arrow.
If combat has started and they are vary of their opponents, what reason would they have to believe one of their own attacked them?
I'd say 'far-fetched' to 'impossible' depending on the opponents, and if there are more archers than the rogue.
Yeah for False attacker to work you probably have to have another archer on your side of the field.
2) In the next round, when it is my initiative I can use a move action to go into concealment (assuming some is available) and stealth. Because I didn't snipe in the surprise round there is no after-sniping penalty to my stealth role.
--This is also fine so far.
It IS? So if you snipe in a round, you re-hide at -20. If instead you shoot in the open completely visible and wait until next turn to try hiding, it's at zero penalty? So being in cover and trying to hide is harder for stealth than being in the open & shooting?
I cannot wrap my head around that.
2) In the next round, when it is my initiative I can use a move action to go into concealment (assuming some is available) and stealth. Because I didn't snipe in the surprise round there is no after-sniping penalty to my stealth role.
--This is also fine so far.
It IS? So if you snipe in a round, you re-hide at -20. If instead you shoot in the open completely visible and wait until next turn to try hiding, it's at zero penalty? So being in cover and trying to hide is harder for stealth than being in the open & shooting?
I cannot wrap my head around that.
I don't blame you.
It's just the good ol' "realism" vs "simplified game mechanics" stealth rules discussion again.I've had it proved to me that the devolopers intended for someone to be able to use Stealth while observed, as long as they satisfy the requirements of Cover/Concealment.
This feels really weird to me, as this means that you would be able to hide in an empty, white room with someone staring at you, as long as this person had lost their glasses.
The sniping rules are for avoiding detection while attacking, which infers a huge penalty. If you're standing in tall grass and don't care about the enemy knowing your location (or readied attacks), you could full-attack and then 5-foot step into Stealth.
Leaving aside the mechanical validity of the listed tactics:
There's a pretty big difference in revealing your location and then hiding versus never revealing your location in the first place. In the former case, combatants still have a good idea of where you're likely to be and can move toward you for a closer look (or just fireball the general vicinity). In the latter case, at best they know the general direction the arrow in their face came from--they have no idea how far away it was.
I thank you guys for the discussion, but I've decided that the rules are so bad that I'm going to house rule this. The house rule goes like this:
1. You can't try to stealth after taking a shot and being in the open. You're seen.
2. While being seen you can move behind cover, but it won't give you stealth and sneak attack. It gives you cover bonuses. That's it.
3. If you want to gain stealth, use the -20 to hide while sniping rule.
4. Waiting a turn and then hiding does not bypass the sniping rule. You are still plainly visible and thus are under rules #1 and #2.
In other words, you should never be able to hide while detected after an attack, unless you have Hide in Plain Sight or use sniping rules or maybe that Hellcat Stealth mentioned earlier. Without a way to get a chance to hide while being observed, it's just simply impossible. Waiting a round won't negate that.
Thanks everyone.
2) In the next round, when it is my initiative I can use a move action to go into concealment (assuming some is available) and stealth. Because I didn't snipe in the surprise round there is no after-sniping penalty to my stealth role.
--This is also fine so far.
It IS? So if you snipe in a round, you re-hide at -20. If instead you shoot in the open completely visible and wait until next turn to try hiding, it's at zero penalty? So being in cover and trying to hide is harder for stealth than being in the open & shooting?
I cannot wrap my head around that.
If your PC is shooting in the open and completely visible, the next round there aren't any negatives to Stealth because Stealth is now actually impossible because now he's being actively viewed (which should occur the instant he makes his attack during the Surprise Round), thus making any stealth attempt impossible until he gets Hellcat Stealth. Before he can get Hellcat Stealth (level 6 is the earliest), the PC would have to go through extra measures in order to stop being actively viewed before he can find a new sniping perch to initiate a new stealth attempt (and if he's moving fast, which he probably is, he takes a -10 penalty to that particular stealth attempt).
You as the GM can control a lot of his shenanigans just by saying "you're actively viewed by X, Y, and Z enemies right now". Obviously this is up to you as the GM, but I think it's a bad idea to start making house rules for this (especially if he starts getting feats to make it better, like Fast Stealth, Ledge Walker, Hellcat Stealth, Hellcat Pounce, Signature Skill: Stealth, etc.). And actually, your house rules are perfectly within the purview of the rules anyway - you cannot stealth while being actively viewed.
Ultimately, he still has to succeed at all these Bluff/Stealth checks with serious negatives from the various circumstances (negatives to convincing a target of falsehoods from Bluff, moving fast while stealthing, etc.). But in the early game before he can get Hellcat Stealth, stealth attempts are impossible while being actively viewed.