I've been playing a Gunslinger for a few months now, and I'm starting to feel like I'm lagging behind the rest of the party. Looking into it, it seems like if I had been a Fighter and just taken Gun-based feats I would have been better off. What have your experiences been, is Gunslinger an underpowered class?
Guns are just emerging in this world, so everything is pricy. I even have the Beneficial Bandolier, and find that I'm still spending more time fiddling rather than fighting. I built a +1 Mithril Tri-Barreled Pistol, and sometimes will use an off-hand standard Pistol when I get the chance. At sixth level, I can:
Round 1) Fire two shots from the Tri, one from the off-hand, reload the off-hand for free (Beneficial Bandolier).
Round 2) Fire one from the Tri, reload for free (BB), fire a second, and fire my off-hand.
Round 3) With Rapid Reload, I can still only reload two barrels of my Tri, as it's a Move Action, and my off-hand for free (BB).
Is there a better way to cut out this dead round? If I did only reload on barrel, I could fire twice, but then Round 4 I'm fully empty. Seems like a bow or crossbow is a much better weapon, and a Fighter can focus even more so than a Gunslinger.
What have your experiences been, is Gunslinger an underpowered class?
Yes it is. Indeed, there is absolutely no mechanical reason to stay in the class after gaining dex-to-damage at 5th level - whatever you want, a different class or combination thereof would be besser. You really should think about multiclassing out of Gunslinger, to pick up some options of your desire.
Still, that doesn't mean your character as he is has to be weak, as even though the class itself is bad, the brokenness of firearms can compensate for that. Out of the box, firearms are crappy, but with a certain investment, they suddenly jump multiple gears into super powerful.
You can create your own ammunition at half price (Gunsmithing feat), so you can simply create paper alchemical cartridges. As Pink Dragon said, with those and Rapid Reload, your reload time is a free action, allowing a regular full attack. Add in Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim (you don't care much about the attack roll penalty, due to targetting the much lower touch AC), and you can outdamage most other characters.
Alchemical cartridges do increase the misfire chance by 1, so you'll need to use your Quick Clear deed more often, but that's a small price to pay.
Don't forget to fire two shots with double barreled pistols at once. Tri-barreled? Ouch.
Means your char might fire three shots with one Standard action?
Thats what most Gunslingers do.
Level6 example:
Use one pistol for three attacks firing two shots with each attack for 6d8+three times DEXmod+ three times Deadly Aim Bonus +12 plus any weapon enhancement.
So dex 20 handelt with a +1 double barreled pistol at point blank ranged hits touch AC with +9/+9/+4 for 6d8+33 points... average 60 points with 4000gp of bis 16k for level 6. Thats not optimized yet.
You need PBS, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload and asap Precise Shot.
Even point blank shot helps here a lot, not speaking of pistoleros.
Your only problem: misfires. But that stops at higher levels.
EDIT: has the no misfires ability been errataed? Looks like, my books say pistolero has no misfires anymore at level 13... Hot changes.
Well. Simply collect many firrrearms like them ARRRH pirates. Looks cool and works. If one weapon jams, draw the next.
@Darklone
Oh wow dude, this just isn't your week.
You might want to sit down. Quick Runner's Shirt isn't the only thing that has changed.
This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as separate attacks, or both can be fired at once as a standard action (the attack action).
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
The double-fire ability of firearms is a standard action, and can't be done as part of a full-attack any more.
Apparently, it wasn't ever meant to allow you to do so.
Thanks Wonderstell, it isnt just my week looks like me and my books got old. :)
No gunslingers anymore that kill anything at once. Back to my stylish one shot pirates!
Well, that only reduces the 6d8 to 3d8... and i forgot the -4 to hit... old man goes to take a nap now;)
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Using the Rapid Reload Feat Reduces your reload down to a Move Action.
Using Alchemical Cartridges "make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)"
This is the combination that lets you reload as quickly as you can shoot as long as you have a free hand: Using two guns at the same time generally means you can't reload at all without some sort of additional appendage like a prehensile tail or a vestigal arm from alchemy.
Gunslingers do a ridiculous amount of damage, but as noted by previous posters, they don't actually get much beyond level 5 (though I still like the Signature Deed (Twin Shot Knockdown) combo for the Pistolero), so folks often feel this is a good time to multiclass into something else.
The type of opponents you face will greatly impact your performance:
You don't have much of an advantage when facing small lightly armored opponents or opponents you can't get within one range increment of.
Large or heavily armored opponents on the other hand become easy targets for you (we once faced a dragon-like creature with a Flat Footed AC of 28 and a Flat Footed Touch AC of 8, which meant the melee had a lot of trouble hitting while the Pistolero practially couldn't miss)
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Thanks Wonderstell, it isnt just my week looks like me and my books got old. :)
No gunslingers anymore that kill anything at once. Back to my stylish one shot pirates!
Yeah, gunslingers got majorly nerfed. They went from being a great ranged combatant to a mediocre one. They used to be able to keep up with the melee fighters. Now, not so much. At least they hit about every time.
As far as I can tell, the Juggler Bard introduces the ability to reload weapons with hands full pretty easily, allowing for dual-wielding pistols; or perhaps better, wielding a pistol and a blade.
Not that that specifically helps Gunslingers any more than, say, Savage Technologist.
In my experience, it's far easier to build a ridiculous damage machine as a gunslinger than as a fighter. Of course, multiclassing gets you the best of both worlds.
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Yeah, gunslingers got majorly nerfed. They went from being a great ranged combatant to a mediocre one. They used to be able to keep up with the melee fighters. Now, not so much. At least they hit about every time.
Whoa, whoa, stop right there. Even straight Gunslinger does pretty fine, and as I've said, that's far from the optimum.
Let's do some quick comparisons at 12th level. Str or Dex 24, target is an enemy with the rounded average AC and HP values across CR12 monsters (AC26, TAC13, HP159). Haste is provided.
Musket Master Gunslinger, wielding a +1 greater reliable musket, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim: 143.3 DPR
2H Barbarian, wielding a +4 greatsword, using Power Attack, Divine Fighting Technique (Gorum), Vital Strike, and Improved Critical; raging, pouncing under reckless abandon: 131.5 DPR
Dragon Style unMonk, wearing a +3 AoMF, using Possessed Hand, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, and Jabbing Style; Flurry with Flying Kick and a ki attack: 152.6 DPR
Swashbuckler wielding a +4 rapier, with Weapon Focus, Fencing Grace, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Spec: 132.4 DPR
Wildshape Druid, wielding a +3 AoMF, using Power Attack and Mutated Shape; pouncing as an allosaurus: 141.8 DPR
Archery Fighter, wielding a +4 composite (+2) longbow, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus+Greater, and Weapon Spec+Greater; with Gloves of Duelling: 87,9 DPR
Bomber Alchemist, at 20 dex (with mutagen) and 24 int, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting+Improved, throwing bombs with Fast Bombs: 153.8 DPR
And there are still ways to pull off a dual-wielding pistolero build even in the post-weapon-cord-nerf world. Double barrel was never a requirement for making a ridiculous gunslinger.
Going to pick on that Archery Fighter a bit.
Yeah, even with conservative numbers I get just about 120 DPR. Maybe Derklord forgot to account for Manyshot, or is assuming to always be shooting into cover/melee? (as neither Precise or Imp Precise are listed)
The other damage numbers all look good though.
The archery Fighter DPR is indeed wrong, I made a stupid mistake. I apologize!
Archery Fighter, wielding a +4 composite (+3) longbow, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus+Greater, Weapon Spec+Greater, and Improved Critical: 143.1 DPR
As I was only throwing the Fighter a bone, we can remove the Gloves of Dueling to keep everyone at equal wealth. I'm OK with adding Improved Critical because there's still bonus feats to spare.
I don't see how a 12th level Fighter has 18-20 strength, though. I'm presuming a starting main ability score of 16+2. I presume spending a maximum of 1/3 WBL on weapon and 1/5 WBL on belt or headband (Weapon upgrades at levels 4/8/10/12/14, AoMF upgrades at levels 6/9/12/15/16, belt upgrades at levels 7/11/14). As I've been a bit generous with the Druid's wisdom, I've increased the Fighter's strength to 16 (starting 15, 1 dot). Of course he'd be using a adaptive composite longbow, but there's no mechanical difference; writing (+3) removes the need to note the strength score.
I was deliberately using relatively simple builds - all of these can be further maximized for damage, of course. Only the Alchemist, which I included mostly for comparison (as it's known to be a strong nova class), uses a limited recource. The unMonk (ki is de facto infinite due to permanent Ki Leech) isn't using the 10th level bonus feat (Medusa's Wrath or Improved Critical) nor any Ki Powers apart from Ki Leech, the Druid and Alchemist aren't using spells, the Swashbuckler isn't double the Precise Strike damage on the first attack, etc.
There are basically two things that I wanted to show: First, Gunslinger should be considered an on par damage dealer, and second, all that Gunslinger gains from the last seven class levels is +1 to damage rolls, so with a adequate "base" damage from the first 5 levels, such a character has lots of possible multiclass directions to go in.
Maybe Derklord forgot to account for Manyshot, or is assuming to always be shooting into cover/melee? (as neither Precise or Imp Precise are listed)
Way more embarrassing than that: The weapon type was set to two-handed melee weapon (with the bonus attacks (but not the penalty) from Rapid Shot and Manyshot still included, as the total damage calculation doesn't check for weapon type - I should change that). I excluded all damage irrelevant things - the Barbarian should have Raging Vitality and Superstition, for instance, but I tried to keep the list as short as possible.
Musket Master Gunslinger, wielding a +1 greater reliable musket, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim: 143.3 DPR
2H Barbarian, wielding a +4 greatsword, using Power Attack, Divine Fighting Technique (Gorum), Vital Strike, and Improved Critical; raging, pouncing under reckless abandon: 131.5 DPR
Dragon Style unMonk, wearing a +3 AoMF, using Possessed Hand, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, and Jabbing Style; Flurry with Flying Kick and a ki attack: 152.6 DPR
Swashbuckler wielding a +4 rapier, with Weapon Focus, Fencing Grace, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Spec: 132.4 DPR
Wildshape Druid, wielding a +3 AoMF, using Power Attack and Mutated Shape; pouncing as an allosaurus: 141.8 DPR
Archery Fighter, wielding a +4 composite (+2) longbow, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus+Greater, and Weapon Spec+Greater; with Gloves of Duelling:87,9 DPR143.1 DPR
Bomber Alchemist, at 20 dex (with mutagen) and 24 int, using Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting+Improved, throwing bombs with Fast Bombs: 153.8 DPR
What kind of world do we live in, where 2H Barbarians do the LEAST damage?
I probably screwed that up as well, let me re-check it.
Ok, I have no idea what I did there - I can't reproduce the number, but it's definitely wrong. The actual DPR should be 186.7 on a pounce. Yep, that looks more realistic! Also, a little scary. I new Gorums DFT was crazy, but damn!
I probably screwed that up as well, let me re-check it.
Ok, I have no idea what I did there - I can't reproduce the number, but it's definitely wrong. The actual DPR should be 186.7 on a pounce. Yep, that looks more realistic! Also, a little scary. I new Gorums DFT was crazy, but damn!
And just like that, all is right with the world.
...
IMHO seeking is the best enchantment any ranged character can get. That enchant bypasses every miss chance in the game which saves you a ton of grief. A +1 seeking bow is a lot stronger than a +2 bow.
Right. Especially if the archer has blindsense like a Dragon disciple… without seeking, blindsense is very weak, with seeking it rocks.
Imp Eldritch Heritage for archers seems like a run of the mill feat choice. Though most archers here end up with +3 adaptive seeking bows.
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Gunslinger is mainly about hitting touch AC. There are certain campaigns/APs where that just breaks things (looking at you, RotRL). Stacking static damage or effects on your attacks gets ridiculous when even you're -11 iterative is basically guaranteed to hit. I had a Gunslinger 2/Inquisitor 13 (I think that's where we stopped) who dealt a ton of damage. I basically spent a round buffing and moving into position, then whatever I unloaded on went away. And that was as a halfling with a d6 pistol and without any dual wielding or double-barreled gun tricks. But with Greater Bane, Judgements, and Divine Favor/Power, etc. I won't say that I outpaced the Arcane Archer in the group, but I held my own.
Gunslinger 5/Anything that boosts your static damage is really powerful. Weapon Master works well, because you can pick up Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training. Urban Barbarian/Bloodrager would boost dex.
Investigator is what I'd choose if I was making that character again today, but that's more for the flavor. I wanted a hardboiled detective feel to the character. It takes more effort to make Investigator work at ranged. Slayer wouldn't be bad. Eventually stacking sneak attack on touch attacks.
I think the gun rules are poorly written. When guns are working, they do too much damage against an AC that scales poorly, so the DM feels bad. This is "balanced" by all the times when you missfire and lose your whole turn, or the enemy is more then 30 ft away. Keep in mind that in order to full attack with a pistol the gunslinger is misfiring on a 1 or 2, which you absolutely need to calculate into DPR, as each missfire will end your full attack and mean you need to spend grit or a standard action next turn to un-break your gun.
So any fight that the gunslinger missfires in he is stuck feeling useless. It doesn't help that there is about one viable build for the gunslinger...
My recommendation would be to take a longbow, reflavor it as a revolver and play a fighter.
Musket Vital Strike builds help with mobility and avoiding too many misfires that disrupt Full attack action.
Keep in mind that in order to full attack with a pistol the gunslinger is misfiring on a 1 or 2, which you absolutely need to calculate into DPR, as each missfire will end your full attack and mean you need to spend grit or a standard action next turn to un-break your gun.
Which is why I used the greater reliable weapon enchantment.
It doesn't help that there is about one viable build for the gunslinger...
Oh god, don't get me started on that. Gunslinger should never have been made a class. It's based around a poorly done anachronistic gimmick, the only worthwile class features gained after 5th level have been errata'd out, and the class design is so atrocious that it makes Shifter look good in comparison.
Musket Vital Strike builds help with mobility and avoiding too many misfires that disrupt Full attack action.
The damage just can't compete, though:
Musket Master Gunslinger, wielding a +1 greater reliable double-barreled musket, using Point-Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Vital Strike+Improved, and Devastating Strike: 87.0 DPR (95.1 with added Improved Critical).
Keep in mind that in order to full attack with a pistol the gunslinger is misfiring on a 1 or 2, which you absolutely need to calculate into DPR, as each missfire will end your full attack and mean you need to spend grit or a standard action next turn to un-break your gun.Which is why I used the greater reliable weapon enchantment.
Ah, you may be right. I've never played in a game where I had a +4 weapon :(