When using higher level versions of the dragon claws power, does/should the item bonus increase the elemental damage?
I know the power says "...granting a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and adding a damage die..." but that seems underpowered. That's also a trivial amount of damage to track of an alternate type at high levels... an amount that seems likely to be completely negated by damage reduction often enough to be silly.
Is this a typo? Is this balanced? Is this on purpose?
Damage reduction doesn't exist in PF2 and never applied to energy damage anyways so it's only resistance which the devs have said they made less common (though I haven't checked myself). So if the creature resists that specific energy type then yes the attack will do nothing otherwise it will do it's little d4. I think the larger benefit is more niche for triggering weakness; for example vs a fire elemental a white dragon claw would deal an extra 10 cold damage due to the weakness.
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The item bonus does not increase the elemental damage as things stand. I agree that it probably ought to. 5d4 slashing plus 5d4 elemental at 18th level is perfectly reasonable, that's just 25 hp average total.
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It really should. Gives you a reason to actually use the power.
Oh, I interpreted the ability as a weapon that did 1d4(s)+1d4(e) damage. Since neither portion of the damage was called out as the "weapon" damage, I figured it would be both together.
I guess it did seem a little good compared to the rest of the sorcerer class.
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I actually had a similar question. My guess is that it got lost in the cracks when they decided that damage dice would be only 1 base. RAW definitely makes it clear to me that it's just a single bonus die, both in the description of weapon potency, and in the power itself, but I wouldn't be opposed to it increasing, but maybe not quite at the rate of the base slashing damage, since that would basically give you way better progression than any other agile/finesse weapon. Maybe I could see getting an extra die or two of energy damage as you level, maybe heightening at spell levels 4th and 8th to grant 2d4 and 3d4 energy damage respectively.
2d4 is better than all other agile finesse weapons, but its nearly identical to monk combat style attacks at 1d8. It's close enough that I could easily see it working with both dice balance wise. But you're right, reading it again you're obviously only gaining one dice.
Hmmm, it still could be meant that both get an increase. In 5e for example "Damage Dice of a Greatsword is 2d6", maybe they're doing it similar to 5e ? Or they don't, in which case it would be just +1d4.
To be fair, it's a free auto scaling weapon that only costs one action to activate and also gives you resist energy, and can later be used as part of casting dragon wings. Dragon claws is pretty good for a back up option if forced into melee, just not quite good enough for a primary melee combatant.
It might need a buff, but I'm not sure it needs THAT much of one. At the very least, I think other powers need to be examined first. Fey feels pretty lackluster, Aberrant's level 1 is far too niche, etc. Dragon breath needs its damage or scalibbg buffed to be more in line with blast spells. Fly shouldn't be a bloodline spell if you're gonna be getting wings by level 10 anyway.
Agreed. Though I think Dragon Claws is not supposed to be backup option. I think the idea is to do a Dragon Claws + Dmg Spell (or Dragon Breath). Combine this with Multiclass Fighter (Powerful Attack for yet another dragon dice) and you get:
4d4+x (L2 dragon claws + powerful attack) + 3d6 (Burning Hands)
Disadvantage of that being that all your actions are gone then ;-)But that's where Haste comes in if you are L5+ (do the Dragon Claws attack with the hasted action).
MagicSN wrote: Agreed. Though I think Dragon Claws is not supposed to be backup option. I think the idea is to do a Dragon Claws + Dmg Spell (or Dragon Breath). Combine this with Multiclass Fighter (Powerful Attack for yet another dragon dice) and you get:
4d4+x (L2 dragon claws + powerful attack) + 3d6 (Burning Hands)
Disadvantage of that being that all your actions are gone then ;-)But that's where Haste comes in if you are L5+ (do the Dragon Claws attack with the hasted action).
If you multiclass fighter you might as well get Double Slice TBH. Power attack adding another d4 is no where near worth a second attack with the same to hit bonus.
Captain Morgan wrote: MagicSN wrote: Agreed. Though I think Dragon Claws is not supposed to be backup option. I think the idea is to do a Dragon Claws + Dmg Spell (or Dragon Breath). Combine this with Multiclass Fighter (Powerful Attack for yet another dragon dice) and you get:
4d4+x (L2 dragon claws + powerful attack) + 3d6 (Burning Hands)
Disadvantage of that being that all your actions are gone then ;-)But that's where Haste comes in if you are L5+ (do the Dragon Claws attack with the hasted action).
If you multiclass fighter you might as well get Double Slice TBH. Power attack adding another d4 is no where near worth a second attack with the same to hit bonus. LOL I actually have a player doing this with their Part 1/4/7 character. Primarily wields a sword ad spells but sometimes pulls out the claws and goes Double Slice.
Captain Morgan wrote: MagicSN wrote:
If you multiclass fighter you might as well get Double Slice TBH. Power attack adding another d4 is no where near worth a second attack with the same to hit bonus.
Personally I'd say that the condition "you are wielding two melee weapons in your hands" is not fulfilled as you are not wielding them, your hands ARE the melee weapons ;-) But I guess this is a "border case".
Yes, another d4 is not as good as Double Slice (if it's allowed).
Fighter Multiclass I think is also good for a different reason here - Fighter Resilience gives the squishy Sorc the HP needed ;-) (My Sorc is only L4 though, so no clue how it will be in upper levels).
i interpret it as it does increase.
both parts of the damage, both the physical and the elemental one, is called as weapon damage.
neither is called as an enhncment like the jaws power as an example.
it's also not some form of property rune (neither mechanically nor called as such)
since +x increases weapon damage, it stands to reason that it increases all parts of the "weapon damage"
next, it would be flat out wierd to not have some form of scaling, all secondary damages from spells and powers scale with increased spell level.
finally, if it scales, it's inline with monk stances and barbarian animal totem damage wise, while it would be severely underpowered if it was not.
I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
MagicSN wrote: I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
To start off, all the level 4 comparison is 100% irrelevant, since the issue is about how the power scales. A level 10 comparison (+2 weapon vs +2 claws) should be the minimum benchmark.
Then:
I meant the animal totem natural attacks of the barbarian (D8 agile and d10 simultaneously) are similar to 2d4 agile, finesse.
That means a barbarian attacks at 5.5/4.5 while a sorc attacks at 5/5
Exactly the same damage wise.
Same for monk.
D8, agile, finesse, forceful
Vs
2d4,agile,finesse
For total dpr you're doing 2 things wrong:
A) you use giant totem which is terrible
B) you compare a MC 2 feat build vs something that has no feats.
Barbarian in general has terrible dpr but he has really good self-sustaining after he gets the feat that grants extra temp hp with an action.
The shocking grasp example is also usable only 4 times/day.
And etc.
If it doesn't scale:
3d10/3d8 vs 4d4/4d4 or:
16.5/13.5 vs 10/10
If it does scale:
3d10/3d8 vs 6d4/6d4 or
16.5/13.5 vs 15/15
Both have the same att bonus (sorc 1 less from neither str or dex main, barb 1 less from rage)
One has spells, the other has more than double hp and bonus damage on each hit.
shroudb wrote: MagicSN wrote: I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
To start off, all the level 4 comparison is 100% irrelevant, since the issue is about how the power scales. A level 10 comparison (+2 weapon vs +2 claws) should be the minimum benchmark.
Then:
I meant the animal totem natural attacks of the barbarian (D8 agile and d10 simultaneously) are similar to 2d4 agile, finesse.
That means a barbarian attacks at 5.5/4.5 while a sorc attacks at 5/5
Exactly the same damage wise.
Same for monk.
D8, agile, finesse, forceful
Vs
2d4,agile,finesse
For total dpr you're doing 2 things wrong:
A) you use giant... You know I know I said this in another thread where you made this argument but the Monk's Falling Mountain Style is NOT Agile or Finesse. Save for the sole exception of the Elven Curve Blade and a couple of 1d8 monk stances there is no finesse weapon in PF2 with higher than a 1d6 damage die. Having Dragon Claws be 2d4 per +1 would be overpowered for what it is. It is a one-handed weapon with Agile, Finesse, and Unarmed traits. That is in line with the power of a one-handed simple weapon. Maybe it could stand to be a little stronger but NOT to the extent of doubling its damage. 2d4 with Agile, Finesse, and Unarmed would push into the power tier of two handed martial weapon (2d4 is just above 1d8 and 2 handed 1d8 martial weapons have 3 traits). Arguing against the dpr of Barbarian or Monk stances ignores the damage to trait balance that weapons hold. And again, the Dragon Claws power provides more benefit than just a weapon. Barbarian and Monk unarmed attacks fall between one handed and two handed martial weapons with their damage to trait ratio, generally being 1d10 with 1 trait (Aside from unarmed and nonlethal) or 1d8 with two traits for Monk and 1d10 with no trait or 1d6/8 with one for Barbarian. I don't think you can argue for the intent of Dragon Claws to be having a better damage+trait combination than similar abilities of martial classes, let alone having a damage+trait combination that's better than two-handed martial weapons, the strongest in PF2! And that without even having to occupy both your hands as these claws are one-handed weapons.
Have to admit I used the Giant Totem in my example as that's what our Barbarian uses... I agree with you it's terrible, but he just likes going for maxdmg ^^
Yes, Claws+Shocking Grasp only 4x per day. Ourselves, we usually only have 1-2 fights per gaming-day, we play a pretty story-based style.
After reading the answers you are of course right that Lvl 4 comparisions don't cut it (it's what our group plays at, and usually we restart at around lvl 10-12, that's with 5e, hopefully with PF2 the campaigns hold longer, but only time will tell).
Have to think on this (but also hope the officials will clear things up here at one point ^^). Thanks anyways!
Edge93 wrote: shroudb wrote: MagicSN wrote: I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
To start off, all the level 4 comparison is 100% irrelevant, since the issue is about how the power scales. A level 10 comparison (+2 weapon vs +2 claws) should be the minimum benchmark.
Then:
I meant the animal totem natural attacks of the barbarian (D8 agile and d10 simultaneously) are similar to 2d4 agile, finesse.
That means a barbarian attacks at 5.5/4.5 while a sorc attacks at 5/5
Exactly the same damage wise.
Same for monk.
D8, agile, finesse, forceful
Vs
2d4,agile,finesse
For total dpr you're doing 2 things ... Who even talked about mountain stance.
The basic wolf stance at level 1 is d8 agile, finesse, forceful
While is 100% on par with 2d4 agile, finesse.
Barbarian is also d10/d8 agile
Which is 100% the same as 2d4 agile.
shroudb wrote: Edge93 wrote: shroudb wrote: MagicSN wrote: I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
To start off, all the level 4 comparison is 100% irrelevant, since the issue is about how the power scales. A level 10 comparison (+2 weapon vs +2 claws) should be the minimum benchmark.
Then:
I meant the animal totem natural attacks of the barbarian (D8 agile and d10 simultaneously) are similar to 2d4 agile, finesse.
That means a barbarian attacks at 5.5/4.5 while a sorc attacks at 5/5
Exactly the same damage wise.
Same for monk.
D8, agile, finesse, forceful
Vs
2d4,agile,finesse
For total ... I JUST checked and Wolf Stance does NOT have Forceful. Also, again, Barbarian can get 1d10 and 1d8 Agile, yes. But the 1d8 Agile is not the same as the claws with dual scaling, those are 2d4 agile AND Finesse! So not only is it .5 damage and one trait above that claw attack or .5 damage behind the jaws but two traits ahead (Which again, the way PF2 weapons work, essentially makes it more powerful than either!) but it is also inexplicably the most powerful Finesse weapon in the game! (There is no other finesse weapon above 1d8). Again, that just can't be the intent of how this works.
Edge93 wrote: shroudb wrote: Edge93 wrote: shroudb wrote: MagicSN wrote: I thought so at first (@shroudb), but after some more thoughts I disagree it would be underpowered.
A Barbarian (calculating with L4) makes like d12+3+4 Dmg, if he is Giant Barbarian maybe d12+6+4 so avg. 16.5 Dmg. If he goes the Power Attack route, 23 Dmg.
Dragon Sorc L4 with Multiclass Fighter Power Attack:
Claws+Cantrip: 4d4+3+1d8 -> 18 dmg
Claws+L1 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+1d12+1d6 persistant -> 23.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Claws+L2 Shocking Grasp: 4d4+3+2d12+2d6 persistant -> 33.5 Dmg if we count the persistant only once
Yes, if the Barbarian goes Power attack AND attacks two times AND hits despite the -5, he does more damage. But the sorc also has other options and defenses especially (Mirror Images, False Life,...).
With both scaling we would be at 20.5/26/36 Dmg already, and with L5 onward it scales even better...
I fear for some other classes this would be "too strong" in comparision. Sure, you cannot always use 3 Actions for Damage, but still...
And now calculate with a L2 Burning Hands combined, or at L6 with the Dragon Breath Spellpoint feature combined...
Letting both scale in some groups will end up everybody and his neighbour playing a dragon sorcerer... we had such a situation in our 5e group, only Sorcerers and Barbarians left in the end ;-)
Anyways, I definitely think they should clear this up in a future update to make it clear if it's the one or the other!
To start off, all the level 4 comparison is 100% irrelevant, since the issue is about how the power scales. A level 10 comparison (+2 weapon vs +2 claws) should be the minimum benchmark.
Then:
I meant the animal totem natural attacks of the barbarian (D8 agile and d10 simultaneously) are similar to 2d4 agile, finesse.
That means a barbarian attacks at 5.5/4.5 while a sorc attacks at 5/5
Exactly the same damage wise.
Same for monk.
D8, agile, finesse, forceful
Vs ... You might want to actually read wolf stance mate.
At this point you're arguing using wrong facts.
Both barbarian and monk have exactly the same natural weapons as 2d4 claws.
Edge93 wrote: I JUST checked and Wolf Stance does NOT have Forceful. ... It has forceful while you are flanking your opponent. If we're assuming flanking for comparing abilities, which is fair, then it does have it. I think you're over estimating the value of finesse though. Finesse makes your backup weapon more effective for ranged attackers and casters, but you're taking a large dice hit going finesse, even with the d8. If claws are meant to scale both dice, then they are among the best rogue weapons, but that's a narrow niche something had to fill.
ErichAD wrote: Edge93 wrote: I JUST checked and Wolf Stance does NOT have Forceful. ... It has forceful while you are flanking your opponent. If we're assuming flanking for comparing abilities, which is fair, then it does have it. I think you're over estimating the value of finesse though. Finesse makes your backup weapon more effective for ranged attackers and casters, but you're taking a large dice hit going finesse, even with the d8. If claws are meant to scale both dice, then they are among the best rogue weapons, but that's a narrow niche something had to fill. Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing that up. I was getting very confused at the insistence on Forceful since the table of monk attacks does not list it.
And perhaps I should be clarifying, I'm not trying to argue the usefulness of finesse per se, rather how much it counts towards a weapon's power looking at the damage and trait allocations of manufactured weapons. Because while it can be argued whether or not traits justify a lower damage die it is clear that weapons with lower dice have more traits and vice versa, o the point of a pretty clear pattern with little variance. Which is why I keep pressing the argument that x die size plus x number of traits equals x power level of weapon. Also it's being argued tha 2d4 is the same as 1d8 (not by you specifically necessarily but in general) and that's wrong. It's only .5 per die different but that's half a die size. It does matter.
Edge93 wrote: ErichAD wrote: Edge93 wrote: I JUST checked and Wolf Stance does NOT have Forceful. ... It has forceful while you are flanking your opponent. If we're assuming flanking for comparing abilities, which is fair, then it does have it. I think you're over estimating the value of finesse though. Finesse makes your backup weapon more effective for ranged attackers and casters, but you're taking a large dice hit going finesse, even with the d8. If claws are meant to scale both dice, then they are among the best rogue weapons, but that's a narrow niche something had to fill. Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing that up. I was getting very confused at the insistence on Forceful since the table of monk attacks does not list it.
And perhaps I should be clarifying, I'm not trying to argue the usefulness of finesse per se, rather how much it counts towards a weapon's power looking at the damage and trait allocations of manufactured weapons. Because while it can be argued whether or not traits justify a lower damage die it is clear that weapons with lower dice have more traits and vice versa, o the point of a pretty clear pattern with little variance. Which is why I keep pressing the argument that x die size plus x number of traits equals x power level of weapon. Also it's being argued tha 2d4 is the same as 1d8 (not by you specifically necessarily but in general) and that's wrong. It's only .5 per die different but that's half a die size. It does matter. I never said d8 is equal to 2d4
I said d10/d8 (barb) and d8 forceful is equal to 2d4
Thats because the damage breakdown is:
Barb: 5.5/4.5 (d10/d8)
Sorc: 5/5 (2d4/2d4)
Monk: 4.5/5.5 (d8/d8+1)
All 3 above have agile on their iterative.
Sorc and monk are finesse.
All 3 need an action to enable.
All 3 have conditions for their attacks: monk needs flank, sorc spends focus, barb has dead round every 4th round.
If only 2 out of 3 actually scale the whole part, it simply doesn't add up.
As for the finesse vs non finesse, keep in mind that's this is a strictly melee power on a 6hp/level class as opposed to 12hp/level.
After some more playtesting I switched to the +2d4 side ;-)
Also my original calculations had errors. Power Attack (I still think Double Slice is not possible for Claws as they are not weapons "held in hand") needs 2 actions, so the power attack+spell combo is not possible.
And of course my calculation of the 4th level Sorc was wrong - first heightening happens only at lvl 5, not lvl 4. Wrote it up from memory, and wrote it up wrong ;-)
I also noticed that the Wild Druid got 1d6 claws pretty similar to the Sorc Claws, and he got Heal as well - another thing which makes it likely the DPS (Dragon Sorcerer) is supposed to do a slightly higher damage (aka +2d4).
So, end of story: You were right, I was wrong, guys, thanks for the advice ;-)))
MagicSN wrote: After some more playtesting I switched to the +2d4 side ;-)
Also my original calculations had errors. Power Attack (I still think Double Slice is not possible for Claws as they are not weapons "held in hand") needs 2 actions, so the power attack+spell combo is not possible.
And of course my calculation of the 4th level Sorc was wrong - first heightening happens only at lvl 5, not lvl 4. Wrote it up from memory, and wrote it up wrong ;-)
I also noticed that the Wild Druid got 1d6 claws pretty similar to the Sorc Claws, and he got Heal as well - another thing which makes it likely the DPS (Dragon Sorcerer) is supposed to do a slightly higher damage (aka +2d4).
So, end of story: You were right, I was wrong, guys, thanks for the advice ;-)))
only... you weren't wrong, and we weren't wrong either.
it's the 4th (?) time this issue has been brought up,m and we are still in the dark until Paizo faqs it/changes it to what actually is "correct" by RAI (because by RAW both cases have good arguments for it).
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