Magical beast shape and spellcasting

[kyubi3009]

So I happen to have a high level oracle of the moon capable of shapeshifting into magical beast and now comes the murder question wich is can magical beast actualy cast spells at all?

I did read the blink dog scenario. Kirin also is stated to be able to cast cleric and sorcerer spells but what about a nekomata a manticore or a chimera? To resume... still spell yes or no. As a reference to cat Androsphinx also can cast spells.

[Meirril]

I would require the Natural Spell Feat if the magical beast wasn't sufficiently humanoid to believably perform somantic components.

Bodies like Centaurs with obviously humanoid vocal range, arms and hands shouldn't need Nature Spell. Even mostly humanoid forms that can speak any humanoid language should be fine.

But Manticores, Chimera, and Androsphinx? They might be able to handle the vocal components but certainly not the somantic components the Oracle is trained to use. That I would definitely require Natural Spell for.

[kyubi3009]

Meirril wrote:

I would require the Natural Spell Feat if the magical beast wasn't sufficiently humanoid to believably perform somantic components.

Bodies like Centaurs with obviously humanoid vocal range, arms and hands shouldn't need Nature Spell. Even mostly humanoid forms that can speak any humanoid language should be fine.

But Manticores, Chimera, and Androsphinx? They might be able to handle the vocal components but certainly not the somantic components the Oracle is trained to use. That I would definitely require Natural Spell for.

I posted Androsphinx because the guy clearly has a spell list (not spell likes) similar to how for some hilarous reasons naga can cast witheout hands. Heck Kirin can to and he only has hooves. Lammasu also cast oracle spells with his lion paws for some reasons.

[Dragonborn3]

They learned different somatic components, clearly.

[Dragonchess Player]

kyubi3009 wrote:

So I happen to have a high level oracle of the moon capable of shapeshifting into magical beast and now comes the murder question wich is can magical beast actualy cast spells at all?

A humanoid that is in the shape of a magical beast due to a polymorph effect cannot normally cast spells without: Eschew Components and/or a polymorphic pouch for spells that have material components, plus Natural Spell (only classes that gain wild shape), applying Silent Spell (unless the magical beast can normally speak) and Still Spell metamagic, or occult spellcasting* (emotion and thought components instead of somatic and verbal components).

*- werewolf mesmerists, for example

[Azothath]

This topic is as old as Polymorphing...

there are standard acceptable methods to keep desired items from polymorphing with the caster if they are not already excluded from changing; mainly putting them down, polymorphing, then picking them up. That covers Material components with a body slot or GM agreement that you can wear the item in question. Eschew Components feat also works.

Somatic: The dumb hands argument comes up all the time. You just need appendages that can make fine manipulations(as humanoid casters know humanoid methods of spellcasting). Careful selection of form can help immensely so check the PFS improved familiar list of things that can cast. Work it out with your GM. Wild shape gets a break with Natural Spell.
I'm going to comment that like racial spells, nagas and some forms may have special ways of doing their casting or maybe they are just awesome creatures to begin with. Sadly polymorphing just makes the caster look like the creature NOT gain the creature's type and special abilities. Shadow Transformation goes wild on that one...

Verbal: If the creature has a language entry AND you know that language, you can use that or consult your GM for a wavier. Again careful selection of the form can help. Ring of Eloquence is an option or some similar spells. Silent Spell metamagic or a rod can work also.

Psychic casters get a break as their components are more mental so they trade time(action economy) for the usual limitations.

Shapeshifting 9th level spell is different and casters get specials that go with the creature.

[Meirril]

kyubi3009 wrote:

Meirril wrote:

I would require the Natural Spell Feat if the magical beast wasn't sufficiently humanoid to believably perform somantic components.

Bodies like Centaurs with obviously humanoid vocal range, arms and hands shouldn't need Nature Spell. Even mostly humanoid forms that can speak any humanoid language should be fine.

But Manticores, Chimera, and Androsphinx? They might be able to handle the vocal components but certainly not the somantic components the Oracle is trained to use. That I would definitely require Natural Spell for.

I posted Androsphinx because the guy clearly has a spell list (not spell likes) similar to how for some hilarous reasons naga can cast witheout hands. Heck Kirin can to and he only has hooves. Lammasu also cast oracle spells with his lion paws for some reasons.

If you were an actual magical beast that gained class levels you would of already worked out somantic components that work for you. But you are instead an Oracle that takes on a form that is not natural to you. Your character doesn't have sufficient experience to cast spells in the assumed form. That experience would be represented as a feat or class ability that allows you to cast spells in those alternate forms.

i.e. if you want the ability, pay the feat tax.

[kyubi3009]

Meirril wrote:

kyubi3009 wrote:

Meirril wrote:

I would require the Natural Spell Feat if the magical beast wasn't sufficiently humanoid to believably perform somantic components.

Bodies like Centaurs with obviously humanoid vocal range, arms and hands shouldn't need Nature Spell. Even mostly humanoid forms that can speak any humanoid language should be fine.

But Manticores, Chimera, and Androsphinx? They might be able to handle the vocal components but certainly not the somantic components the Oracle is trained to use. That I would definitely require Natural Spell for.

I posted Androsphinx because the guy clearly has a spell list (not spell likes) similar to how for some hilarous reasons naga can cast witheout hands. Heck Kirin can to and he only has hooves. Lammasu also cast oracle spells with his lion paws for some reasons.

If you were an actual magical beast that gained class levels you would of already worked out somantic components that work for you. But you are instead an Oracle that takes on a form that is not natural to you. Your character doesn't have sufficient experience to cast spells in the assumed form. That experience would be represented as a feat or class ability that allows you to cast spells in those alternate forms.

i.e. if you want the ability, pay the feat tax.

In short I'm doomed to multi class 4 time as druid for natural spell or to use still spell and be forced into constantly casting as full round or via quicken spell. Geeze paizo could have given druids a magical beast archetype.

[Meirril]

Well, it is possible to grab a polymorphic pouch and several metmagic rods of still spell. Not ideal, but it means you can choose any beast form...with a hand. Using the rod doesn't alter your casting time.

[Azothath]

wild shaping is better than polymorphing. The user needs a high Str score and decent BAB to make the multiple attacks worth while, otherwise you're better off with standard fighter methods of a greatsword or earthbreaker and magical enhancements or a two-weapon fighter track. This is why polymorphing for a wizard sucks using PF if you intend to use it for attacking.
Buffing your animal companion is a much more effective strategy. Next are buffed summons or eidolons.