Swapping Spells from FCB Allowed?

[KarmicPlaneswalker]

Long story short, our DM made the mistake of allowing one player to run a Drow Noble sorcerer for the campaign; one who was discovered to have 3-4 times more spells known than his class allows (excluding any bonus from bloodline). This, on top of the player refusing to make his character sheet public to the rest of the party, for fear of "metagaming". As well as hiding his inventory so he can BS his way through future obstacles, via faulty record-keeping.

We recently leveled up and the player "fixed" his character sheet to be more in-line for his level (12). It was during this level up when he also learned he could add additional spells via the Drow's favored class bonus.

Sorcerer wrote:

Drow (Advanced Race Guide pg. 104): Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must have the curse, evil, or pain descriptor, and be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.

Because I know it will inevitably come up where the player sees the limited utility of these spells, he will attempt to game the system and try to circumvent any restrictions to give himself a greater advantage; with absolutely no regard for RAW or RAI.

Sorcerer wrote:

Human (Advanced Race Guide pg. 73, Advanced Player's Guide pg. 23): Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.

My question is,

Is there anything in the rules outright prohibiting characters from changing class features or spells obtained from their favored class bonus? If not, it will be very easy for him to strong-arm our DM into letting him exchange any niche Drow spells for more conventional ones that a human sorcerer could obtain.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.

You cannot change a FCB at all. The section is from the core rule book which came out before the idea of racial FCB, but it should still apply.

[Diego Rossi]

I assume you mean using the sorcerer ability to swap spells when he gets a new level to swap a curse spell for a general one, not swapping the Drow FCB for the human FCB.

Quote:

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

Spells obtained from a racial favored class bonus are spells obtained from a racial favored class bonus, so they are always subject to the rules of that FCB. Swapping a spell received by a FCB will change that rule to:

Quote:

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell obtained through his racial FCB in place of one obtained through his racial FCB she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell obtained through his racial FCB in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged and should be one that can be obtained through his racial FCB. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

[KarmicPlaneswalker]

Diego Rossi wrote:

I assume you mean using the sorcerer ability to swap spells when he gets a new level to swap a curse spell for a general one, not swapping the Drow FCB for the human FCB.

Yes, I should have clarified better. So apologies. What I was getting at was, when the sorcerer player inevitably gets tired of niche spells from his FCB, he will inevitably try to swap them for something more standard; more or less bypassing the descriptor restriction imposed on Drow via RAW.

This effectively means he will be getting the human FCB instead of his own when he swaps out and I wanted to know if there was anything preventing him from circumventing this (that and our DM is a complete pushover who lets the sorcerer fully change his spell list on level up).

[Arkat]

KarmicPlaneswalker wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

I assume you mean using the sorcerer ability to swap spells when he gets a new level to swap a curse spell for a general one, not swapping the Drow FCB for the human FCB.

Yes, I should have clarified better. So apologies. What I was getting at was, when the sorcerer player inevitably gets tired of niche spells from his FCB, he will inevitably try to swap them for something more standard; more or less bypassing the descriptor restriction imposed on Drow via RAW.

This effectively means he will be getting the human FCB instead of his own when he swaps out and I wanted to know if there was anything preventing him from circumventing this (that and our DM is a complete pushover who lets the sorcerer fully change his spell list on level up).

Why do you and your players put up with his shenanigans?

[Java Man]

Hot take: the player in question is a toxic jerk. They should be given X chances to correct or take a hike. (Where X is a number between 0 and 1).

Edit: I don't actually know that the drow player is toxic, they might be a perfectly lovely, shifty cheater. But my advice holds regardless.

[KarmicPlaneswalker]

Arkat wrote:

Why do you and your players put up with his shenanigans?

It's a small group (only four of us) and if we lose him, finding another fourth would be extremely difficult.

Java Man wrote:

Hot take: the player in question is a toxic jerk. They should be given X chances to correct or take a hike. (Where X is a number between 0 and 1).

Unfortunately our DM is a complete pushover and refuses to directly address any form of player conflict or game error. I have to be the one to initiate and bring the issues to light, and the problem player immediately flags me down as a "rules lawyer" who is trying to kill his fun.

Java Man wrote:

Edit: I don't actually know that the drow player is toxic, they might be a perfectly lovely, shifty cheater. But my advice holds regardless.

Does such a unicorn truly exist in this world of ours?

[Tom Sampson]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Spells obtained from a racial favored class bonus are spells obtained from a racial favored class bonus, so they are always subject to the rules of that FCB. Swapping a spell received by a FCB will change that rule to:

Quote:

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell obtained through his racial FCB in place of one obtained through his racial FCB she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell obtained through his racial FCB in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged and should be one that can be obtained through his racial FCB. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

I shall have to firmly disagree on this. I have yet to see any rules text that supports this interpretation. What you are describing to me sounds like a rules mix-up, as it is rather reminiscent of the rules on retraining class features, whereas this kind of spells known switching is not retraining a class feature (as there is a very clear process for retraining a class feature and this is clearly not using that subsystem). What is happening in this scenario is simply the use of an existing class feature.

The actual rules text regarding swapping spells is this:

Quote:

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

There is also this text creating an exception to the above rule:

Quote:

At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

This prevents you from exchanging bloodline spells for new spells of your choosing as you could with other spells known. However, no such restriction exists in the general rule, so the RAW ruling is quite straightforward: You can indeed exchange a spell known obtained via a favored class bonus for a new spell known of the same level of your choosing and the new spell you choose is only subject to the restriction that it must be the same spell level as the spell you replaced. It does not inherit any restrictions that applied to the original favored class bonus. So yes, under the rules text, you can indeed exchange spells known obtained via a favored class bonus that was limited to certain spells for any spell of the same level that is on your class list.

However, it sounds to me as though the player in question is in the habit of cheating, which does not really sound like a game one would want to play in.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The rules for FCB state that once chosen they cannot be changed. In Pathfinder the specific overrules the general. To me the rule about not changing a FCB is more specific than the rule on a sorcerer being able to swap out spells. That would indicate that a spell gained through FCB cannot in fact be swapped out period.

Since the rule on the FCB predates the ability to choose spells known as a FCB this is going to be up to the GM. From what the OP said about the GM it is unlikely the GM is going to rule on this.

[Tom Sampson]

I don't view these two rules as interfering with one another, Mysterious Stranger. I view the rule you cited as being more limited in scope. The point was really that people couldn't declare they want to trade all their bonus hit points for skill ranks as they level up or engage in similar antics. It doesn't render what you obtained from the favored class bonus immutable. It only says the act of choosing is a once-and-done deal. You can still interact with what that favored class bonus gave you as normal, and that would include the ability to relinquish a spell known in exchange for a new spell.

It isn't much different from a Bard using their favored class bonus for extra spells known to instead obtain a bardic masterpiece, for instance. And for another example, if a Ranger class character were to use the Duskwalker race's favored class bonus to increase his favored enemy bonus against undead and then use an Enmity Fetish to change what enemy this his favored enemy class feature applies to, we would not discount the increases provided by the favored class bonus from the new favored enemy bonus simply because it originally stated that it would increase your favored enemy bonus vs undead.

Perhaps it makes more sense if I explain it this way: Think of favored class bonuses as mini-feats. Once you made your choice for a feat, those choices are made permanently. But if you were to take an Expanded Arcana feat, you could still use the Sorcerer class's ability to exchange spells known to replace a spell received from your feat for a new spell known. I view favored class bonuses as working in this way.

[Diego Rossi]

You are arguing that a limitation that must be applied when you take an ability doesn't matter anymore after you have taken it.
Pathfinder rules don't work that way.
Power Attack is a classic example: if your strength is reduced (because of age, strength drain, or other effects), you lose access to the feat

The Drow Sorcerer racial FCB has a limitation: you get an extra known spell if it has the curse, evil, or pain descriptor.
If, after swapping a known spell, you don't have at least as many known spells of that level with the curse, evil, or pain descriptor as you have gained with the racial FCB you don't meet the condition for getting the extra spell slots. Consequently, your build is invalid, and you need to revert to the previous situation where your build was valid.

[Tom Sampson]

That is mixing a few different rules in ways that appear to go out of scope. Power Attack has clear prerequisites and those prerequisites must be met for Power Attack to continue to function. But that is a rule specific to feats. Conversely, if a class has a prerequisite and you lose the prerequisite, you either suffer the consequences listed in the class, or you retain all the benefits of the class while becoming unable to take further levels in the class. Case in point: If a Monk were to transition to nonlawful, they would not lose any of their class features, but would be unable to take further levels of Monk. If you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class, while you would be unable to level the prestige class any further, you still retain the benefits of all class features up until that point unless the prestige class specifically states otherwise. So there is very clear precedent that classes and their features are not to be treated the same way as feats in terms of prerequisites.

Moreover, the favored class bonus has no prerequisite at all, aside from being a member of the right race in order to have access to that race's favored class bonus. There is a more limited range of selection regarding what spells you may choose to obtain from that favored class bonus, to be sure, but that is not the same as a prerequisite. It is not written anywhere that you must retain the same amount of spells known with the same limitations of spell selection that your favored class bonus stipulated and as such I do not view this as part of the rules. This seems to be creating a restrictive rule where one does not actually exist. (If you can point me to rules text stating otherwise, I would be happy to revise my stance.) The favored class bonus simply adds spells of your choice that fall under the favored class bonus's range of selection to your list of spells known and once you have done so they are simply treated as any other spells known the rest of the way, including the ability to replace them as a spell known with a new spell of your choosing from your class list so long as it is of the same spell level. The Spellcasting class feature's rules text regarding swapping spells known has no text or indication that it inherits any further limitation, and so there isn't any such limitation upon the choice for a new spell.

I can also point that the presence of exception text for a Sorcerer's bloodline spells stating that they cannot be exchanged suggests that replacing specific spells known with a more general choice was a known application of this class feature (and thus intended) at the time of writing, so they had to introduce specific text to prevent it being applied to a Sorcerer's bloodline spells or Oracle's mystery spells. If it were ruled as you state, Diego Rossi, this exception text would be superfluous since it would be inherently unworkable to replace a bloodline spell regardless, as there is only one option there.

[Diego Rossi]

The Drow Sorcerer Favored class bonus has an effect: "Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must have the curse, evil, or pain descriptor, and be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."
You argue that the effect is different.

A sorcerer has a specific number of spells known; those that she gets beyond that number are allowed under the rules that make them available.

[Tom Sampson]

No, the effect is precisely that. I am simply stating that the swapping of it does not carry that same limitation. Swapping spells known carries the limitations set forth in the rules on swapping spells known, nothing more.

The spells known that a Sorcerer gets beyond that specific number simply increases that number of spells known while adding whatever specific spells known that were gained, from my view.

The interpretation you have put forth appears to essentially create multiple spell lists for a single spontaneous spellcasting class. One spell list for his regular spells known. Another spell list for spells known obtained via the favored class bonus. Perhaps yet another spell list for spells known obtained from some other broad list of options as well. And for each spell list there is a specific list of spells known and one can only swap within the effective class list of the class of spells known. I would maintain that a spontaneous spellcaster only has one spell list that governs all his spells known. The class list and his spells known can be added and subtracted from based on class features and the like, but there is only one spell list governing all the spells known and that is the list used for swapping spells.

[DeathlessOne]

For what it matters, I'm of the same mind as Diego Rossi on this matter. You are not able to retrain Favored Class Bonuses (there are no rules for doing so in the Retraining options) and any bonus spells you have access to because of those Favored Class Bonuses are locked in, and not available to be changed on level up.

If it matters at all, the rules for Sorcerers to select new spells at specific levels pre-dated any options for alternate favored class bonuses that granted spells known. Unless there is specific rules that address this new feature that appear later, no one has any logical basis to argue that FCB (nor options granted by those FCB) can be changed.

[Tom Sampson]

That would appear to place you in agreement with Mysterious Stranger, not Diego Rossi. Diego Rossi asserted that you can indeed exchange spells obtained from a favored class bonus but that you can only change them for spells that would have qualified as valid choices for that favored class bonus. We are also not arguing whether or not you can retrain a favored class bonus but are instead discussing the use of the Sorcerer's spellcasting class feature's ability to replace an existing spell known for another spell of the same level of your choosing at 4th level and every even level thereafter and whether that can be used to replace a spell known obtained via the favored class bonus for a more general selection from your class list. I believe that it does, based on the way these mechanics operate.

I would also disagree with your assessment that "no one has any logical basis to argue that FCB (nor options granted by those FCB) can be changed" as I am fairly certain I have in fact presented just that, though I must confess I suspect that perhaps you have not been reading this thread in full. My basis is that while the FCB itself cannot be changed, the options granted by those FCBs can be interacted with as normal, including the exchange of them.

The argument that "options granted by favored class bonuses cannot be changed" produces its own issues as well. For instance, if it is impossible to lose the spells known obtained by a favored class bonus as is being done here in exchange for new spells known, then a spontaneous spellcaster who has failed a saving throw against Mental Block would, despite the text clearly stating that the target loses all of their spells known, nevertheless retain all the spells known that they have acquired from their favored class bonuses, as these under your ruling cannot be changed and as such cannot be lost, which would appear to mean that they could nevertheless continue to cast spells in spite of the Mental Block.

[DeathlessOne]

The effects of a single spell, especially that one, is a very specific event and as such is likely to override all other rules that don't address its specific function. And it should not be used by itself to undermine the general mechanics of the entire system behind a sorcerer's spellcasting. Its along the lines of using fringe examples and exceptions to make a general rule. The subject of that spell loses access to the features not unlike someone can't use Power Attack when their strength drops below 13.

Its very possible that I misunderstood the entirety of Diego Rossi's stance. If I align more with Mysterious Stranger, that's fine. I stated my stance on the matter.

Though, I might point out a correction. It is not impossible to LOSE the spells known by a sorcerer through the selection of additional spells via the FCB. Such a thing would happen naturally if the character chose to retrain their class levels into something else, simply by virtue of no longer having those class levels. Retraining back to sorcerer levels might allow you to re-select the FCB, depending on the GM. Retraining such intrinsic details about your spells known (which is a function of your racial disposition towards certain spells) might not be an option, as detailed in the retraining rules, and subject to GM approval.

As a final note: writers and other authors often make mistakes and create unintended effects when their product is not thoroughly vetted (and that's kind of hard to do as they often change hands and not every single person who writes has an encyclopedic working knowledge of the system). Taking a purely literal interpretation of of a single work and trying to change the entire system to make something else in the system work differently is ... not intellectually honest. I am attempting to say that politely, if clarification is required.

[Tom Sampson]

This is a strange counterargument with regards to Mental Block. Aside from Mental Block, I can also point to Mindwipe or the Bard's Sandman archetype's Stealspell performance (from the very same book that introduced racial favored class bonuses, including ones that provide extra spells known) for that matter. It is not a single spell at play here, and I hope this also answers your accusation of a literalist interpretation by demonstrating that there are other features as well applying the same mechanism of stripping one or more spells known. The issue I am illustrating is a simple one: The rule you assert produces its own problems, if we are to apply it consistently. It seems your preference is to stand by your interpretation and produce exceptions. My preference trends towards consistent rules, where exceptions ought not to be made unless truly necessary. You speak of the specific trumping the general but there is no text here that takes specific exception to favored class bonuses.

And incidentally, I do not believe your argument is bettered for calling a counterpoint a "fringe example" or accusing me of attempting to "undermine the general mechanics of the entire system." That sort of framing is intellectually dishonest in its own regard, as it seeks to presuppose the correctness of one's own position and "win" an argument not by proving why you ought to be correct in the first place but rather by denigrating and casting as misconduct the presence of reasoning that runs to the contrary of your own. I would indeed like to request clarification on your language there.

As for your assertion that Mental Block is "not unlike someone can't use Power Attack when their strength drops below 13," I would like to point out that it is quite unlike that because those prerequisite mechanics of Power Attack are specific to feats and do not function in other contexts. I have already provided examples before of how classes and their class features work differently with prerequisites than feats do, for instance, so I do not believe we should use mechanics specific to feat prerequisites as guidance for rules interpretations of mechanics that are not feats.

To get back to the core of the argument, it is my view that the rule that "the choice of favored class bonus cannot be changed" only means that once a favored class bonus selection has been made, the favored class bonus itself cannot be re-chosen. It does not mean that we cannot or should not interact with the result of that favored class bonus as normal if doing so can change what that favored class bonus provided (which seems to me as an overbroadening of the rule into an unintended context which then produces somewhat thorny and messy mechanical consequences). Once a favored class bonus has been selected, we should simply interact with the result that favored class bonus produces as normal the rest of the way, which I believe is what was intended. It follows naturally that in the normal case, a spell known can be exchanged upon level-up for another spell known of your choosing that is of the same level, so this would apply to a spell known obtained from the favored class bonus also, which can be exchanged for a new spell known the same as any normal spell known obtained otherwise.

[Belafon]

Outright explicitly says "you cannot retrain a spell you got from an alternate Favored Class Bonus?" No, no such language.

However the sane thing to do is to apply the logic given for retraining spells given in Ultimate Campaign, where the language is a tiny bit more complete than the CRB's "The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged".

UC page 191 wrote:

The new spell must be one you could place in the old spell’s spell slot.

Which means in addition to the same maximum spell level it would have the same descriptor limitations (curse, evil, or pain) as the original spell.

[Pizza Lord]

I don't see it as a problem too much as long as the character isn't being completely rebuilt to take advantage of it as if their character had always been that way (that's what retraining is for). If they are actually retraining, then they need to follow the rules (obviously a GM can do whatever they want). That means time and money and possibly a trainer or additional time.

Each level, a drow sorcerer can choose to gain a sorcerer spell (of curse, evil, pain) at least one level below their maximum allowed spell level instead of an extra hit point or skill point. Once they choose to do so, they cannot change that choice (unless they retrain the whole class level). In the case of the 12th level sorcerer, the highest spell level is 6th. A drow sorcerer could add a [curse/evil/pain] spell of 5th level or lower to their list. That's easy and straightforward.

At 4th level and every even level afterwards, they can swap out a spell known for one of the same level. That's not contested.

The issue is whether it violates any wording (which I haven't found) or there's an obvious broken mechanic (which is subjective to some GMs) to allowing them to swap out their spell for another 5th level one.

I think it should be okay. The drow gains 12th level, chooses the FCB they wish, they gain new spells and they can swap (as 12 is even) at the time they gain new spells. Since the FCB is likely gained when the other benefits are (ie. an FCB skill point would count towards a feat prereq, so a new spell known should be there when any other spells known are chosen), it would be available for swapping.

Since the drow's FCB bonus spell is always a spell level behind, and since swapping spells keeps them at the same level, it does not appear to be an overpowered use. Either way, the character is getting an extra spell known, they are just giving up a bonus hit point or skill point to do it (or swapping out another less beneficial spell for a new one, since they can only swap one).

I don't see any wording to prevent this, and I don't think it's really an issue barring some corner or specific case, and this is also assuming he isn't just remaking the character as though it was that way from the start (unless he's actually retraining everything).

As a GM, I reserve the right to stop such things if they don't make sense, like someone retraining Rich Parents trait away after getting the starting money or something ("Suddenly I didn't have rich parents!") This should be fine though.

[DeathlessOne]

Tom Sampson wrote:

This is a strange counterargument with regards to Mental Block. Aside from Mental Block, I can also point to Mindwipe or the Bard's Sandman archetype's Stealspell performance (from the very same book that introduced racial favored class bonuses, including ones that provide extra spells known) for that matter. It is not a single spell at play here, and I hope this also answers your accusation of a literalist interpretation by demonstrating that there are other features as well applying the same mechanism of stripping one or more spells known. The issue I am illustrating is a simple one: The rule you assert produces its own problems, if we are to apply it consistently. It seems your preference is to stand by your interpretation and produce exceptions. My preference trends towards consistent rules, where exceptions ought not to be made unless truly necessary. You speak of the specific trumping the general but there is no text here that takes specific exception to favored class bonuses.

Standing by a general rule and allowing for exceptions to exist is an accurate description of my stance. That's the whole mentality behind specific rules trumping general ones. Favored class bonuses, by their very nature, are specific rules that override the general rules of a class. You get X amount of skill points, except FCB can get you another. You get 1dX HP per level, except where FCB can grant you another (and so can a CON modifier). You get X spells known, except where a FCB can grant you another.

Quote:

And incidentally, I do not believe your argument is bettered for calling a counterpoint a "fringe example" or accusing me of attempting to "undermine the general mechanics of the entire system." That sort of framing is intellectually dishonest in its own regard, as it seeks to presuppose the correctness of one's own position and "win" an argument not by proving why you ought to be correct in the first place but rather by denigrating and casting as misconduct the presence of reasoning that runs to the contrary of your own. I would indeed like to request clarification on your language there.

I stand by what I said. If you are intentionally attempting to use fringe examples (in this case, three sources of the same effect; temporary loss of abilities) to alter the mechanics of a different part of the system (permanent changes to a set of abilities), you are engaging in behavior that is designed to undermine the structure of the rules themselves. My statement of attempting to be polite when I said that was to leave room for the possibility of that being an unintended consequence, and to make it known that my intention was not to directly attack you. If you are fully aware of what you are attempting to do, then I also stand by my statement of intellectual dishonesty and do not care if the same is thrown back at me for calling it out.

Quote:

As for your assertion that Mental Block is "not unlike someone can't use Power Attack when their strength drops below 13," I would like to point out that it is quite unlike that because those prerequisite mechanics of Power Attack are specific to feats and do not function in other contexts. I have already provided examples before of how classes and their class features work differently with prerequisites than feats do, for instance, so I do not believe we should use mechanics specific to feat prerequisites as guidance for rules interpretations of mechanics that are not feats.

I stand by what I said. It is one temporary loss of access to a feature attempting to overwrite how a more permanent change is made to a feature. Of course there is not a perfect, direct parallel for what is being discussed here. This issue is absurd.

Quote:

... It does not mean that we cannot or should not interact with the result of that favored class bonus as normal if doing so can change what that favored class bonus provided (which seems to me as an overbroadening of the rule into an unintended context which then produces somewhat thorny and messy mechanical consequences). Once a favored class bonus has been selected, we should simply interact with the result that favored class bonus produces as normal the rest of the way, which I believe is what was intended...

It might be easier for you to see the spells known from the sorcerer class feature and the FCB spells known as from different pools. While you can cast from either pool with your spells per day, your ability to change the spells known only functions for the spells known granted by your sorcerer class.

Anyway, I think I've said all that I need to here. I'll keep an eye out in case there is anything else I can help out with. Most of all, have fun at your table. Rules Sections can get a bit tense at times, but at the end of the day, we need to have tight guidelines for how the system works regardless of how we feel about the issue. What you do at your own table is your own business.

[Theaitetos]

Tom Sampson is right on all accounts, and any non-emotional reading of the rules will come to the very same conclusion.

However, I think there is need for a meta-analysis to explain the heavy opposition to those very clear-cut rules by some in this thread.

The OP has done the very same thing that he accused the other player of doing: gaming the system.

KarmicPlaneswalker wrote:

Long story short, our DM made the mistake of allowing one player to run a Drow Noble sorcerer for the campaign; one who was discovered to have 3-4 times more spells known than his class allows (excluding any bonus from bloodline). This, on top of the player refusing to make his character sheet public to the rest of the party, for fear of "metagaming". As well as hiding his inventory so he can BS his way through future obstacles, via faulty record-keeping.

We recently leveled up and the player "fixed" his character sheet to be more in-line for his level (12). It was during this level up when he also learned he could add additional spells via the Drow's favored class bonus.

Because I know it will inevitably come up where the player sees the limited utility of these spells, he will attempt to game the system and try to circumvent any restrictions to give himself a greater advantage; with absolutely no regard for RAW or RAI.

[...]If not, it will be very easy for him to strong-arm our DM into letting him exchange any niche Drow spells for more conventional ones that a human sorcerer could obtain.

This ENTIRE text is nothing but a RANT.

The only part that actually concerns a RULES QUESTION is this short part:

KarmicPlaneswalker wrote:

My question is,

Is there anything in the rules outright prohibiting characters from changing class features or spells obtained from their favored class bonus?

In other words, the OP had a very clear intention of getting this forum's participants to "rule in his favor", and in order to do so, he "poisoned the well" by giving this entire rant as emotional framing before asking his actual question.

However, no rational person should allow themself to be swayed by these emotional appeals and should instead merely judge the rules question itself, based on its own merits. Another person might come one day with the same question but a similarly convincing emotional appeal in the other direction. None of this should matter. Setting emotion aside is paramount when reading the rules, for otherwise one falls victim to those who try to inject bias in their own favor.

My recommendation for the OP is to stick to posing only rules question in the Rules Forum, without emotionally ranting. There are other sub-forums here where one can ask for advice on how to deal with other players, but the Rules Forum is not the place for that.

My recommendation for the participants in the Rules Forum is to:
a) recognize such intentional injections of bias via emotional appeals,
b) loudly speak out against such framing actions,
c) stick to the rules regardless of how it would affect anyone emotionally,
d) consider the implications of their own arguments.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

I may very well be missing crucial aspects of the arguments being made, but it feels like debating whether or not a drow sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of [a spell it received as part of gaining a level in his favored class] is secondary to the stated limitation of the favored class bonus in question: that this spell must have the curse, evil, or pain descriptor.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. Whether that spell was gained as part of normal level progression or through a favored class bonus would normally be moot, since the number of spells that can be exchanged in this manner doesn't change. The salient point is that the player wants to switch out spells that he could only get if they had the above descriptors.

With that in mind:

1. If the PC is allowed to switch out FCB spells with the curse, evil, or pain descriptor for spells without those descriptors, he is gaining the alternate human FCB--which the drow don't get for a reason. This should be disallowed, regardless.

2. If the PC uses his sorcerer's limited ability to learn new spells to switch out FCB spells with the curse, evil, or pain descriptor for other spells with those descriptors, he is actually constraining himself even further than the class feature's requirement. Within that context, whether changing out FCB-granted spells meets the RAW threshold is a rather moot point. He paid for buyer's remorse (choosing the wrong curse, evil, or pain spell) with a higher price than normal: not using his class's benefit to instead switch out a spell gained through normal progression for one from a far larger pool of spells.

As for the underlying mechanical and philosophical point of contention, I know this will be an unsatisfying answer but I think everyone needs to refer back to the basic principle stated in the core rulebook: that this is about having fun. The sorcerer is a class whose balancing act involves having a limited number of spells known. It is able to change out a single spell on all but one even level so that a player isn't stuck with an unsatisfying choice. The spells a sorcerer gains as part of his FCB aren't learned from a spellbook, scroll, or whatever. They're as much a part of himself and his "birthright" as the ones he gains through his class's Spells feature. With that in mind, what good does it do the game if, at 4th level, a player is kept from switching out an FCB spell instead of a normally gained one (while adhering to restrictions such as those of the drow sorcerer FCB, of course)?

[KarmicPlaneswalker]

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:

I may very well be missing crucial aspects of the arguments being made, but it feels like debating whether or not a drow sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of [a spell it received as part of gaining a level in his favored class] is secondary to the stated limitation of the favored class bonus in question: that this spell must have the curse, evil, or pain descriptor.

With that in mind:

1. If the PC is allowed to switch out FCB spells with the curse, evil, or pain descriptor for spells without those descriptors, he is gaining the alternate human FCB--which the drow don't get for a reason. This should be disallowed, regardless.

Yes, this is what I was originally trying to emphasize and requested help with. Apologies if that was not clear.

Theaitetos wrote:

The OP has done the very same thing that he accused the other player of doing: gaming the system.

Actually I'm not. LPoT

Theaitetos wrote:

In other words, the OP had a very clear intention of getting this forum's participants to "rule in his favor", and in order to do so, he "poisoned the well" by giving this entire rant as emotional framing before asking his actual question.

Not sure where all the presumptuous delusions came from, but all I did was explain the situation with as much context and detail as possible. Thought our DM may be a pushover, he does abide to RAW when the evidence is substantial enough; which is why I inquired in the first place. WCSD

Theaitetos wrote:

My recommendation for the OP is to stick to posing only rules question in the Rules Forum, without emotionally ranting. There are other sub-forums here where one can ask for advice on how to deal with other players, but the Rules Forum is not the place for that.

And my recommendation is that you avoid my topics if you will not be contributing anything of substance to the actual discussion or subject matter being presented. If I had an issue with players, I would be in the advice section on how to handle the matter. I am here explicitly for RAW/RAI rulings, in order to build a case for when the issue inevitably comes to a head.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Don't get me wrong, the background information about the player didn't cause me any consternation, but it was unnecessary to the topic. You could have just as easily posed the same question without it, and I genuinely doubt you would've gotten substantively different answers.