Level Bonus, explain what is happening: a conspiracy theory


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I am no fan of the +1/level, except, possibly, for saving throws. The worst ramifications are for skills and armor class, IMO.

There's been a lot of talk about the game mechanics and balance and blah blah blah, but none of that is what worries me.

What I've never heard a coherent explanation for yet is what exactly this represents in the game world.

What does the +1/level to attack represent? It can't be skill at fighting, because that's covered by your level of proficiency. So what is it about the 10th level wizard that makes her so very much better at fighting than the 1st level fighter?

What does the +1/level to AC represent, really? It can't be dodging ability, because that's covered by dexterity. There's no condition in the game that removes it, which means it still applies when you're paralyzed, unconscious, hell, even DEAD, so that means your +1/level to AC can't be something you're actually doing.

I'm thinking of Bob the 4th level Rogue who has tied up, restrained, and immobilized both Richard the 1st level Wizard and David the 18th level Wizard. Bob the Evil goes to kill them with his dagger, and in a few rounds of bloody work, Richard the 1st Level is dying dying dying dead.

But no matter what Bob the Rogue strikes at David the 18th level Wizard, he just, keeps, missing, because of David's +18 AC which applies always.

Is it luck?

The only explanation I can think of to make sense of this is that it's some kind of supernatural intervention of the divine. Which, okay, sure, it's a magical world.

But think about that a little deeper: If this +1/level is a god-given ability, it's being given not on the basis of dogma, alignment, faithfulness, it's just being given on the basis of raw power (i.e. level advancement).

In other words, the metaphysics of this new Golarion seem to be dictated by a being who rewards mortals through a predictable hierarchy that only respects raw power.

I don't know about you, but that being sounds to me like Asmodeus.

Asmodeus now controls the physics of Golarion. Only power is rewarded. The weak shall perish.

I am only sort of kind of kidding.


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Yolande d'Bar wrote:


What does the +1/level to attack represent? It can't be skill at fighting, because that's covered by your level of proficiency. So what is it about the 10th level wizard that makes her so very much better at fighting than the 1st level fighter?

Experience. Skill at fighting is your total bonus. the Proficiency rank is your trianing, your natural aptitude is your str/dex, your item property is your item bonus, the level bonus? that is experience, experience directly increases your level.

You might be less well trained but have a lot more experience than someone else and still beat them. If you are worried about the relative value that makes sense (+1-20 for to experience vs -2 to +3 for training seems like a pretty lopsided ranking) but it's hyperbolic to say that there is no rational explanation for what the +lvl factor means.

Yolande d'Bar wrote:


I'm thinking of Bob the 4th level Rogue who has tied up, restrained, and immobilized both Richard the 1st level Wizard and David the 18th level Wizard. Bob the Evil goes to kill them with his dagger, and in a few rounds of bloody work, Richard the 1st Level is dying dying dying dead.

But no matter what Bob the Rogue strikes at David the 18th level Wizard, he just, keeps, missing, because of David's +18 AC which applies always.

Is it luck?

You get a similar thing with just HP scaling anyways with the fact that he would need to stab David x18 more times because of all that extra HP david has, you need some sort of scaling in the game if you want a level based system, if you don't well than Pathfinder probably isn't for you.


Bardarok wrote:

Experience. Skill at fighting is your total bonus. the Proficiency rank is your trianing, your natural aptitude is your str/dex, your item property is your item bonus, the level bonus? that is experience, experience directly increases your level.

You might be less well trained but have a lot more experience than someone else and still beat them. If you are worried about the relative value that makes sense (+1-20 for to experience vs -2 to +3 for training seems like a pretty lopsided ranking) but it's hyperbolic to say that there is no rational explanation for what the +lvl factor means.

Except it is exactly not that.

First, the wizard never touching a sword gains attack and defense by this fudge factor you are calling "experience" at exactly the same pace as an actual fighter.

But, much more telling, when fighting an equal level monster, the bonuses cancel out. This is not just by design, it is the heart of the design. A completely unintelligent monster gets this bonus. An unaware monster (or character) gets this bonus. There is no consistent connection to experience, or any other narrative detail, within the system.

It is a pure and simple fudge factor built to force the math along an axis.


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Ok, your other thread on this topic started to turn against you, so you made a new one


BryonD wrote:
Bardarok wrote:

Experience. Skill at fighting is your total bonus. the Proficiency rank is your trianing, your natural aptitude is your str/dex, your item property is your item bonus, the level bonus? that is experience, experience directly increases your level.

You might be less well trained but have a lot more experience than someone else and still beat them. If you are worried about the relative value that makes sense (+1-20 for to experience vs -2 to +3 for training seems like a pretty lopsided ranking) but it's hyperbolic to say that there is no rational explanation for what the +lvl factor means.

Except it is exactly not that.

First, the wizard never touching a sword gains attack and defense by this fudge factor you are calling "experience" at exactly the same pace as an actual fighter.

But, much more telling, when fighting an equal level monster, the bonuses cancel out. This is not just by design, it is the heart of the design. A completely unintelligent monster gets this bonus. An unaware monster (or character) gets this bonus. There is no consistent connection to experience, or any other narrative detail, within the system.

It is a pure and simple fudge factor built to force the math along an axis.

Levels are literally the only thing that directly interacts with experience in the game. I'm calling this part of the bonus experience because more experience = more levels = this part of the bonus being bigger.

If you want to argue that it shouldn't apply without training that is fine but that is a different point than saying the +lvl doesnt represent experience. The devs think that general adventuing experience should apply to everything which is a debatable position and one that I don't care to defend.

Monsters don't follow PC rules and are built simply to be challenges for the PCs so they are not relevent here. Again I don't particularly like that decision but it is the truth.

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