Is fire purposefully invisible?


General Discussion

Dark Archive

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There is no mention in the playtest of creatures made of fire, like fire elementals, shedding any light. There is also no mention of light being shed from creatures on fire or some fire spells that have a duration, like Fiery Body and Flaming Sphere.
An easy fix could be as simple as adding "Non-instantaneous effects and items with the fire trait shed bright light in an x foot radius" to the fire trait description. And adding an extra sentence to the already long persistent damage condition that reads "Creatures taking persistent fire damage shed bright light in an x foot radius".

Liberty's Edge

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Great point!

A non-fluff Trait (Dim, Bright, Brilliant) for Fire Effects describing the amount of Light they give off would indeed be nice!


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There is also no mention of light sources affecting stealth - as in you can carry a torch and still use Stealth.

When comparing races, it appears that the races that have low-light or darkvision don't pay anything for these perks. If carrying light sources does not affect Stealth, then that makes sense (though its still a 2 feat path for a human/half-orc to gain darkvision).

A possible logic behind all this is that darkvision cannot discern the difference between lit and dark area - the only difference is that you can see colors, and that might not be immediately obvious.

Dark Archive

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Wow, I didn't even see that, Starfox.
I really hope the devs clarify all of this before a certain part of Doomsday Dawn is in the spotlight.


Page 301 states that Bright Light allows anyone with normal vision to see creatures and objects. So it would be up to the GM to say if a fire elemental is giving off bright light, or dim light.


Did PF1 have rules for any of the things you've brought up? Light from elementals, fire spells, or people on fire, or carrying a torch during Stealth.... What makes them suddenly issues when they (apparently) weren't before?


Starfox wrote:
There is also no mention of light sources affecting stealth - as in you can carry a torch and still use Stealth.

Light sources effect stealth because you need concealment to stealth in the first place. If you're in bright light and there is no cover to separate you from the people you're attempting to sneak against, then you just flat cannot even attempt to sneak.


Milo v3 wrote:
Starfox wrote:
There is also no mention of light sources affecting stealth - as in you can carry a torch and still use Stealth.
Light sources effect stealth because you need concealment to stealth in the first place. If you're in bright light and there is no cover to separate you from the people you're attempting to sneak against, then you just flat cannot even attempt to sneak.

True. But if you are carrying a torch while you have concealment or cover, you can use Stealth. There is usually a lot of cover available in a twisty dungeon, there certainly is a lot in The Lost Star.


Milo v3 wrote:
Light sources effect stealth because you need concealment to stealth in the first place. If you're in bright light and there is no cover to separate you from the people you're attempting to sneak against, then you just flat cannot even attempt to sneak.

If you're in an environment where you need a torch, the creatures you are encountering are almost certain to have darkvision, so in practice you couldn't use darkness for concealment in such situations anyways.

Liberty's Edge

Rules for Fire producing Light should be really simple and take up no more than 2-3 Sentences to describe the "Luminous Trait" in the GM & Spells Chapter which are non-instantaneous effects.

Luminous 1 - Dim light 10 ft
Luminous 2 - Bright light 10 ft, Dim light 20 ft
Luminous 3 - Bright light 20 ft, Dim light 40 ft
Luminous 4 - Blinding light 10 ft, Bright light 20 ft, Dim light 40 ft

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