Don't worry about how it's done I just need an answer to a question, if a medium creature with 25 natural reach gets enlarged does it now have 50 natural reach?
That depends on how those extra 20' of reach were added, there is no general answer to this.
Java Man wrote: That depends on how those extra 20' of reach were added, there is no general answer to this. Just flat out natural reach can attack anything with in 25 feet of it including any in its own square.
No.
(Also, there's no creature with 25 'natural' reach. But I won't worry)
Size (tall):
Medium -> Large -> Huge -> Gargantuan -> Colossal
Reach:
5 (M) -> 10 (L) -> 15 (H) -> 20 (G) -> 30 (C)
Data taken from the Creature Sizes table of the Space, Reach & Threatened Area Templates.
As you can see, your reach isn't "doubled" when you grow in size. Generally it just increases by 5 ft, unless you're growing from Gargantuan to Colossal.
Wonderstell wrote: No.
(Also, there's no creature with 25 'natural' reach. But I won't worry)
Size (tall):
Medium -> Large -> Huge -> Gargantuan -> Colossal
Reach:
5 (M) -> 10 (L) -> 15 (H) -> 20 (G) -> 30 (C)
Data taken from the Creature Sizes table of the Space, Reach & Threatened Area Templates.
As you can see, your reach isn't "doubled" when you grow in size. Generally it just increases by 5 ft, unless you're growing from Gargantuan to Colossal.
Those all only show what happens to a normal creature with normal reach there are no examples of what happens when you have abnormal base reach.
doomman47 wrote: Those all only show what happens to a normal creature with normal reach there are no examples of what happens when you have abnormal base reach. Enlarging a creature doesn't double the reach
If you were tiny, small, medium, large or huge, then add 5 to your reach.
If you're enlarging yourself from Gargantuan to Colossal, then add 10 to your reach.
That's it. Them's the rules.
If you're large, then you have a base reach of 10. If you don't have a reach of 10, then you must have some sort of ability that adds to it.
Which means it isn't your base reach.
Wonderstell wrote: doomman47 wrote: Those all only show what happens to a normal creature with normal reach there are no examples of what happens when you have abnormal base reach. Enlarging a creature doesn't double the reach
If you were tiny, small, medium, large or huge, then add 5 to your reach.
If you're enlarging yourself from Gargantuan to Colossal, then add 10 to your reach.
That's it. Them's the rules.
If you're large, then you have a base reach of 10. If you don't have a reach of 10, then you must have some sort of ability that adds to it.
Which means it isn't your base reach.
You missed "These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist."
We however are not talking about a typical creature since it is a medium creature with 25 natural reach not 5.
Tell us exactly what/why/how you have 25' reach on a medium character and we can help you.
MrCharisma wrote: Tell us exactly what/why/how you have 25' reach on a medium character and we can help you. 25 foot long tentacles on a medium sized creature.
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In that case it should only be a 5' increase per standard rules, otherwise a colossal dragon would have very massive reach woth its bite indeed, something like 200 feet!
How are you increasing in size?
If it's through enlarge person
Quote: A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed. You now have a natural reach of 10 feet.
doomman47 wrote:
You missed "These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist."
We however are not talking about a typical creature since it is a medium creature with 25 natural reach not 5.
Most of the exceptions have less reach than their size would indicate, not more. The exceptions to that are creatures with tentacles and some plant monsters that have extraordinary reach for their size.
And since their tentacle reach has nothing to do with their base size, increasing base size has no set effect on their extraordinary reach! It would be very easy to rule that the reach remains the same, or increases by 5' like it does for the vast majority of creatures. The one ruling that would seem out of place would be to try and double the reach of the tentacles because nothing does that! Literally nothing.
Now someone is going to argue that medium creatures reach the next 5' square and suddenly double to 10'. Which seems fine and logical, but if you give a medium creature a reach weapon they strike out to 10', but when they increase to large size they only add 5', not doubling that 10' reach to 20'.
There are exceptions to the standard, but the standard is adding 5'. And the exceptions don't follow any set pattern. There really is a strong case to say that exceptions don't gain more reach from growth since their reach isn't 'natural'.
Meirril wrote: doomman47 wrote:
You missed "These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist."
We however are not talking about a typical creature since it is a medium creature with 25 natural reach not 5.
Now someone is going to argue that medium creatures reach the next 5' square and suddenly double to 10'. Which seems fine and logical, but if you give a medium creature a reach weapon they strike out to 10', but when they increase to large size they only add 5', not doubling that 10' reach to 20'. Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Meirril wrote: Now someone is going to argue that medium creatures reach the next 5' square and suddenly double to 10'. Which seems fine and logical, but if you give a medium creature a reach weapon they strike out to 10', but when they increase to large size they only add 5', not doubling that 10' reach to 20'.
An enlarged creature with a reach weapon does have a reach of 20 feet though so it does look like it has doubled and their minimum reach has also been doubled from 5 to 10. If they were only gaining 5 to their reach than they would only have a reach of 15 and not 20.
So on the reach weapon you've got: Medium natural reach 5'; Medium with reach weapon adds +5' for 10' reach; Large natural reach 10'; Large with reach weapon adds +5' (for original Medium size), +5' (for changing to Large size) for a total of +10'. All totaled... Large with a reach weapon is a 20' reach.
If you have a Medium monster with a 25' reach with its tentacle, going to Large adds +5'. Giving it a reach weapon before the size change adds +5 to its natural reach, for 30' reach at Medium size. Then, if you enlarge it, you've got the base reach of 25', +5' for large, the base Medium reach increase for a reach weapon of +5' and finally another +5' reach for the weapon becoming Large.
A Large sized creature wielding a reach weapon in it's extremely long tentacles has an effective reach of 40'. It can hit with the weapon in spaces 40' and 35' away, but not any closer. Alternatively it can skip the weapon and attack things with a tentacle Slam attack anywhere from in its own square to 30' away.
Then, as you size increase past this just add 5' for natural reach at every size increment and another 5' to the reach of a Reach weapon as well. So:
Huge: 35' reach for Tentacle Slam; 50' for a Reach weapon
Gargantuan: 40' reach for Tentacle Slam; 60' for a Reach weapon
Colossal: 45' reach for Tentacle Slam; 70' for a Reach weapon
Clear as mud?
Honestly if you're shooting for THAT much reach, give the monster a 3/day attack with a Long range attack spell, like Magic Missile. 400' plus 5'/CL. 3/day wouldn't be game breaking so as long as the spell was level appropriate to the CR of the monster (ex: a CR 7 monster could fling Magic Missile, maybe Burst of Radiance... probably not the level 5 spell Burn Corruption) I'm sure you could get away with it.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: So on the reach weapon you've got: Medium natural reach 5'; Medium with reach weapon adds +5' for 10' reach; Large natural reach 10'; Large with reach weapon adds +5' (for original Medium size), +5' (for changing to Large size) for a total of +10'. All totaled... Large with a reach weapon is a 20' reach.
If you have a Medium monster with a 25' reach with its tentacle, going to Large adds +5'. Giving it a reach weapon before the size change adds +5 to its natural reach, for 30' reach at Medium size. Then, if you enlarge it, you've got the base reach of 25', +5' for large, the base Medium reach increase for a reach weapon of +5' and finally another +5' reach for the weapon becoming Large.
A Large sized creature wielding a reach weapon in it's extremely long tentacles has an effective reach of 40'. It can hit with the weapon in spaces 40' and 35' away, but not any closer. Alternatively it can skip the weapon and attack things with a tentacle Slam attack anywhere from in its own square to 30' away.
Then, as you size increase past this just add 5' for natural reach at every size increment and another 5' to the reach of a Reach weapon as well. So:
Huge: 35' reach for Tentacle Slam; 50' for a Reach weapon
Gargantuan: 40' reach for Tentacle Slam; 60' for a Reach weapon
Colossal: 45' reach for Tentacle Slam; 70' for a Reach weapon
Clear as mud?
Not really it seems weird that they would only get a +5 from going from medium to large since doing so doubles the creatures size so the 25 foot long tentacles would now be 50 feet long but some how only have 30 foot reach because reasons.
doomman47 wrote: Not really it seems weird that they would only get a +5 from going from medium to large since doing so doubles the creatures size so the 25 foot long tentacles would now be 50 feet long but some how only have 30 foot reach because reasons. If you don't want to follow the "standard" natural reach everything else gets then do whatever you want to do. You are the GM, do what you feel is right. But if you want to follow the "standard" progression it is a 5' increase with 1 size category change until yo get up to Gargantuan where it becomes 10'.
Starting with non-standard reach means its difficult to judge what would be 'right' for this sort of creature. Just go with what you think would make for a good encounter.
Now if you are doing this as a player...you shouldn't have a 25' reach to begin with. Especially when you don't need to waste any kind of action to attack anywhere within that reach. Arguing to get that out to 50' with an Enlarge Spell or similar effect is kind of spitting in the face of your GMs good will for giving you that kind of reach in the first place. A 5' increase on what is already an absurd reach is more than generous enough.
Sorry I haven't been able to post for a while.
So the RAW is that going from medium to large doubles your reach ... however I'm not sure that you're using RAW to get that 25 foot reach as a medium creature so it's basically GM fiat anyway.
If I were the GM I'd give you a bit - but not all - of the increased reach as you increase in size. I'd probably give you an extra 10' reach for going large.
As a medium creature with 25' reach you can make AoO's anywhere within a 55' circle. If that reach doubled you'd be covering a 105' circle (seems unbalanced). Giving you only 5' also doesn't seem fair (65' isn't better enough to be worth enlarging), but 75' is enough of a difference to make it worth it while not totally unbalancing the game (well not unbalancing it any more ...)
That's my 2 coppers
TLDR: You're not playing buy the rules as written so ask the GM
doomman47 wrote: Not really it seems weird that they would only get a +5 from going from medium to large since doing so doubles the creatures size so the 25 foot long tentacles would now be 50 feet long but some how only have 30 foot reach because reasons. You have a medium creature that has achieved 25ft reach with their tentacles in some way. We still don't know how it has that reach, which makes it hard to convince you.
But if your creature had started out as large-sized, and then gained all those reach-increasing abilities, it should have the exact same reach as a medium creature that had been enlarged.
Relevant FAQ.
Wonderstell wrote: doomman47 wrote: Not really it seems weird that they would only get a +5 from going from medium to large since doing so doubles the creatures size so the 25 foot long tentacles would now be 50 feet long but some how only have 30 foot reach because reasons. You have a medium creature that has achieved 25ft reach with their tentacles in some way. We still don't know how it has that reach, which makes it hard to convince you.
But if your creature had started out as large-sized, and then gained all those reach-increasing abilities, it should have the exact same reach as a medium creature that had been enlarged.
Relevant FAQ. Creature I created, I can't go into much detail with out risk of spoiling it on the off chance some one from the group stumbles into here, it's literally just that a creature with really long tentacles and its fairly immobile. I know I could just rule it one way and be done with it but I would prefer a solid ruling that makes sense and don't want to arbitrarily make a ruling. This way I have a solid basis for things in the future weather they be from monsters or from players, its scummy to rule one way for monsters and then a different way for the players so I try and avoid it.
Wonderstell wrote: doomman47 wrote: Not really it seems weird that they would only get a +5 from going from medium to large since doing so doubles the creatures size so the 25 foot long tentacles would now be 50 feet long but some how only have 30 foot reach because reasons. You have a medium creature that has achieved 25ft reach with their tentacles in some way. We still don't know how it has that reach, which makes it hard to convince you.
But if your creature had started out as large-sized, and then gained all those reach-increasing abilities, it should have the exact same reach as a medium creature that had been enlarged.
Relevant FAQ. Side comment on the faq thing, its saying have the artificial reach enhancements added after a reach weapon/natural reach which is how I already rule, any long arm, lunge or similar abilities get added after any reach extension weather it be via size change or reach weapon and works both for size increases and size decreases so shrinking a small creature to tiny size and applying long arm would give them back their 5 foot reach.
Wait, are you the GM or a PC?
MrCharisma wrote: Wait, are you the GM or a PC? Gm.
For some reason I thought you were a PC trying to break the game =P
So the Enlarge Person spell says:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one ... A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This seems to imply it's actually doubled.
Although it's not an official source, THIS PAGE has some diagrams (about half way down).
If you want to give it more than 5' extra from enlarge person, but don't want to give it the full 25' (and don't want to give it random amounts) you could call it a large creature that covers a small space (so it's large, but it only covers a small amount of ground-space). The difference between medium and large is a X2 multiplier, but the difference between large and huge is only a X1.5 multiplier. This would mean it would get an extra 10-15 feet of reach if it goes larger (and loses 10-15 feet if reduced) without it using different "enlargening" mechanics.
Hopefully that helped.
MrCharisma wrote: So the Enlarge Person spell says:
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one ... A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This seems to imply it's actually doubled.
Although it's not an official source, THIS PAGE has some diagrams (about half way down).
If you want to give it more than 5' extra from enlarge person, but don't want to give it the full 25' (and don't want to give it random amounts) you could call it a large creature that covers a small space (so it's large, but it only covers a small amount of ground-space). The difference between medium and large is a X2 multiplier, but the difference between large and huge is only a X1.5 multiplier. This would mean it would get an extra 10-15 feet of reach if it goes larger (and loses 10-15 feet if reduced) without it using different "enlargening" mechanics.
Hopefully that helped.
You misread the spell. The doubling only affects a humanoid (Medium) creature. You mechanically get a size category increase.
The chart you mentioned is based off Table 8-4: Creature Size and Scale.
Since the OPs creature is a Medium w/25' reach, it would become Large. As 25' is not on the table for Medium creatures, it is GM fiat. The table implies a +5' of reach for Medium -> Large(tall). and no bonus for Medium to Large(long).
As this creature has a 25' reach, it clearly is not humanoid, so Enlarge Person would not target it. Some other spell must be in play, or some special rules to make this creature a target. Either way, you have additional rules to check for how it works.
/cevah
if the character in question is a medium sized creature with a 25' long tentacle that can make natural attacks..... the creature is not a humanoid, and therefore cannot be enlarged through enlarge person.
more likely, its a monstrous humanoid or an abberation - neither of which can be targeted by enlarged person.
any chance thre creature is a cleric, capable of casting Righteous Might?
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