Armor and shield proficiency are not stacking?


Playing the Game


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Playtest Rulebook p.176 wrote:
Your Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity modifier (up to your armor’s Dexterity modifier cap) plus your proficiency modifier for any armor or shield you are using plus the armor’s item bonus to AC. If you’re using both armor and a shield, apply the lower of the two proficiency modifiers.

What I understand from this sentence:

1) a 1th-level Rogue with Trained proficiency in Light Armor but Untrained in Shields would get the -2 from Untrained to his AC even though he's Trained in this kind of Armor

2) a 7th-level Fighter, who is Expert in Shields but Trained in Medium armor would not get the +1 from being Expert in Shields.

3) the same 7th-level Fighter, naked but with a shield, would get the +1 from his expert proficiency (but, obviously, no AC from armor).

Assuming I'm right, I understand the intent of the rule (having an incentive NOT to carry a shield when untrained and balancing different defensive builds), but I find the solution inelegant.

How about only the armor proficiency counts when determining AC, but imposing prerequisites/benefits/penalties for shields based on proficiency, such as

  • characters Untrained in shields can use the Shield Block reaction
  • characters Untrained in Shields get a penalty to Reflex saves equal to the armor check penalty of any shield they carry

    How about something as simple as "add your proficiency bonus to the Hardness of any shield you use" ?

    The Rogue could still grab a shield and use Raise a Shield to get the +1 or +2 to AC at the cost of an action, but no other benefits. Still, it would be a possibility.


  • I would be happiest if Shield Proficiency and Quality both improved AC (and stacked with Armor Proficiency instead of taking the worse value)...
    However that would make Raising A Shield swing your AC by 8 points (twice the value of Taking Cover) if you're a high-level paladin or grey maiden with a legendary shield (or 10 points if they later release a Tower Shield/Pavise). Which I admit would be excessive unless two-handed weapons also recieved a significant boost to compensate. That isn't gonna happen because Two-Handed Weapons are already as powerful as the existing metrics allow them to be.

    I think the main reason Shield Proficiency doesn't stack with Armor is because it creates too much incentive to carry a shield or cast Shield all the time. As for quality, I suspect it was because you'd really only gain the shield AC bonus anyway; as the Item Bonus granted by an armor potency rune explicitly doesn't stack with the Item bonus that superior quality armor... doesn't add to AC... anyway...


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    An increase of 8 AC or thereabouts, yes, but at the cost of both an action and not using a two-handed weapon.

    Grand Lodge

    I would be happy enough if it simply used the greater of the two instead of the lesser.


    David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:
    I would be happy enough if it simply used the greater of the two instead of the lesser.

    IIRC the devs said they were worried about characters taking Shield Proficiency to wear armor they were unproficient in without penalty. Such as an Alchemist (with just Shield Proficiency) wearing half-plate and raising his shield every single round.

    I think said alchemist should apply both proficiency modifiers (+0 for Trained in Shield, and -2 for Untrained in Heavy Armor).


    I find shield proficiency to be really clunky in implementation.

    Raising your shield lowering your AC and etc.

    It would be best imo if the mechanics of Shield proficiency got decoupled from the armor proficiency and the AC.

    It could help with something else rather than AC, as an example, it could modify shield hardness (you learn to position it better, to minimise the impact)


    In lieu of a circumstance bonus to AC (which doesn't stack with Cover), Shields could provide a flat chance to hit the shield instead of the wielder (DC 5 to 9). I'd leave shield block as is (or rather, fix the wording to match construct armor).

    Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Playtest / Player Rules / Playing the Game / Armor and shield proficiency are not stacking? All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.
    Recent threads in Playing the Game