Voluntary Flaws

[Golem99]

Not sure what anyone else will think of this, but I wanted to mention that while I was reading through this, I found the thought of Voluntary Flaws ridiculous. If you drop statistics, you should get something for that. If you don't want it to be one to one, you could always make the drop of 2 points grant a bonus of 1. Or grant an additional feat. But to grant nothing at all in return is just wrong.

I'm also rather disappointed to see the stat purchase missing, not even present as an alternative rule.

[ZedainTurkBlitz]

I like how they tried to make point buy easier. It was very difficult to teach new players. Almost necessary to have a automatic point buy calculator. However I too find this new system strangely limiting. Maybe offering to have a -2 in exchange for a +2 as a option once or something could fix the flaws but but it is inherently limiting to restrict this diversity. People want to play fun and atypical characters but being punished for doing so isn't very fun to me.

I have a Pathfinder 1.0 Character that is Deaf and Mute which is very challenging to play and very rewarding when done right because it is such a challenge but I cast all spells as silent which gives more something in game to compensate for the difficulties I impose on the character. It makes it fun by limiting me in some way but also giving me more options in other ways.

[Melkiador]

I rather like the system. It's mostly the same as Starfinder's, so I saw it coming. You shouldn't let stats get too in the way of your roleplaying anyway. If you want your guy to be stupid, then just have him do stupid stuff, without fiddling with the stats.

[Nonalyth]

The key word is voluntary. Just don't do it if it bothers you.

It sounds like you're just disappointed you can't min-max anymore.

[sherlock1701]

Nonalyth wrote:

The key word is voluntary. Just don't do it if it bothers you.

It sounds like you're just disappointed you can't min-max anymore.

It sounds like you think dumping one stat and boosting another in exchange is a terrible thing. I disagree - there's a lot of precedent for taking flaws to get benefits. And of course, you always want to shoot for benefits that outweigh the flaws.

Maybe instead of giving you stats, a voluntary flaw could give you an extra feat or skill. Maybe an extra ancestry feat. And then limit it to one or two flaws.

[Mergy]

Your character has flaws already. They're untrained in any skill you don't invest in. They're limited to what equipment you've given them, and they can't do a great deal of things because they only have so many feats. Most characters cannot speak sign language and so are rendered unable to communicate when it's too loud or in magical silence.

Also, you could roleplay flaws that are of significant importance to your character's identity. I understand that there are payoffs for taking flaws in other games, but that's not enough of a reason for this game to have them as well by default.

[Draco18s]

Mergy wrote:

Your character has flaws already. They're untrained in any skill you don't invest in.

If by "untrained" you mean "at worst, they're 25% less good than someone who's a legend in that skill." That's it. 25%.

[Mergy]

Draco18s wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Your character has flaws already. They're untrained in any skill you don't invest in.

If by "untrained" you mean "at worst, they're 25% less good than someone who's a legend in that skill." That's it. 25%.

I think you're missing the point I'm making, and I'm also a bit put off by the way you're taking a small portion of my argument and responding facetiously.

In the event you're still discussing in good faith, I would like to point out that untrained compounds with other investment that a character is likely to make. Untrained means no skill feats in that area, and I also find it unlikely that most characters will spend too much of their limited wealth on item bonuses. The swing between Expert with skill feats and an item and untrained without similar investment constitutes the flaw.

Now if your character is taking time and energy to get a custom item to cover that flaw, then well done you for showing some character growth and admitting to having a problem you needed solving!

[Draco18s]

Mergy wrote:

Untrained means no skill feats in that area, and I also find it unlikely that most characters will spend too much of their limited wealth on item bonuses. The swing between Expert with skill feats and an item and untrained without similar investment constitutes the flaw.

Point, skill feats exit.

Problem: skill feats beyond level 4 are not impressive.

Problem: skills aren't the only thing that has the same issue that the "Untrained to Legendary is only a +5" has. Saves, save DCs, AC, to-hit, anything that uses the new proficiency system.

[Megistone]

And here comes the "skill system sucks" cavalry, aiming to derail each single thread that is talking about other things.

Edit: ...without even having comprehended some basics about the skill system itself, and the four degrees of success!

[ZedainTurkBlitz]

Nonalyth wrote:

The key word is voluntary. Just don't do it if it bothers you.

It sounds like you're just disappointed you can't min-max anymore.

I think you misunderstand. I actually want to reduce the desire for people to min max. Making one stat the only stat needed for a build is something pathfinder seemed to try to pull away from which was very prevalent in 3.5. Here they are trying again but min maxers will always be a thing and so will power creep as new material is never as balanced as old material and new combinations become available.

The point is that paizo is stating that they still want to provide the ability to create fun and complex characters and builds which they are doing a great job at. However I think removing the ability to provide innate depth though stat adjustments may be a little to drastic. I think they should balance out the stats to make "Dumping" undesirable, which they are doing a great job at (except Int). That way you could still play the BDF because its fun but maybe an Int fighter that dumps Str would be really interesting. Not so fun if it just makes you less able to contribute than everyone else. It's more about building a unique character with strengths and flaws.

[PossibleCabbage]

I don't want people to be able to optimize their characters by picking those flaws which provide the greatest "mechanical benefit" to "barely inconvenient" ratio. I have seen this in lots of other games and it's almost always just a tool for min-maxing.