Am I missing the necessary restrictions on Master Sniper?

[ErichAD]

The master sniper feat allows the player to make two ranged attacks while sniping. This doesn't appear to be limited to any ability or weapon types. At first this seemed like a nice boon for sneaky javelin or dagger throwers, but it appears to be left broad enough that a kinetic blast could qualify despite there being no other way for a kineticist to make two blasts without sniping.

I assume I'm missing a rule somewhere that prevents this.

Short version: How does Master Sniper interact with kinetic blast?

[Shiroi]

Okay, raw is a tiny, itty bit murky on this because it says you can make two, not 'up to two, not in excess of your normal ability to make or not make two'. If you had only one dagger to throw, only one arrow left, or a crossbow that can't be fired more than once a round the same questions would be asked.

The answer, in what I feel is very clear RAI, is that you may make UP TO two attacks, which this feat in no way empowers you to perform if you don't otherwise have the ability to perform them. Technically, in fact, both the sniping base skill and this feat share the same wording issue and in many RAW ways could be implied to allow you to make a ranged attack regardless of if you even -have- a ranged weapon.

For practical purposes, this will allow Flurry of Blasts to give two hits per round while sniping if you'd like.

[Claxon]

Clearly this is just poor wording, it doesn't let you make attacks that you couldn't normally make if you weren't sniping.

What it does is allow you to make more than one attack while sniping.

[Dave Justus]

Just as you can't throw a dagger you don't have, you can't make a blast you don't have.

Kinentic blast requires a standard action, which you won't have available if you take a full round action for master sniper. IF the blast was a normal attack action that could be done with other attacks (say if you had a BAB of 6 you could full attack with a blast at +6 and weapon at +1) then you could use master sniper to make one kinetic blast and throw a dagger, both at your full BAB. Unfortunately this is not the case.

You also couldn't use it in conjunction with a spell (absent quickened spell or something similar anyway) unless it was a spell that gave you ranged attacks as attack actions on later rounds.

If you are going to allow it to work with attacks that you don't actually have, I recommend 2 shots with a non-existent Fiends Mouth Cannon.

[ErichAD]

Sniping allows an attack, which is normally a standard action. Kinetic blasts are also ranged attacks that require a standard action. I don't think we can get anywhere going that way.

My initial impression was that sniping wasn't a specific action and that a sniper could hide>attack>hide>attack>hide as often as they like. The existence of master sniper seems to imply that a sniper could only make one shot a round while sniping and that sniping itself was its own action type.

Is master sniper meant only to reduce the frequency of rehiding between shots?

[Syries]

The stealth skill states that moving into stealth after making a ranged attack is a move action, which is why You cannot full attack at range and enter into stealth after. You can standard action make a single blast and stealth, because you made a ranged attack roll, but that roll was in concert wth use of a SLA, which is it's own specific standard action.

You cannot normally use two SLAs in the same action, therefore you cannot justify using Master Sniper to get two kinetic blasts and stealth in the same round. Even using flurry of blasts, you cannot use master sniper, since master sniper specifies it's own full-round action, similar to how vital strike is it's own standard action, and therefore cannot be used in concert with flurry of blasts. Likewise, you cannot throw two daggers in a full attack action if you only have one drawn and can't quick draw them, and Master Sniper doesn't change that.

[Syries]

ErichAD wrote:

Is master sniper meant only to reduce the frequency of rehiding between shots?

Normally moving into stealth after sniping is a move action, thus only leaving you with a standard action to make the attack. Master Sniper allows you to make two ranged attacks from stealth AND reenter stealth with all the normal sniping penalties as it's own specific full-round action.

[ErichAD]

I missed the move action for stealth thing. That clears things up a bit.

The rule preventing kinetic blast from working with master sniper would seem to preclude it from working with any form of sniping though, since we'd need to use the spell like ability and then make the ranged attack with it. Either using the spell like ability is a standard action that grants a free attack when used and thus wouldn't work with sniping at all, or the spell like ability is an always on effect that grants a ranged attack kinetic blast with a standard action in which case you'd be granted two attacks by master sniper.

Since we have an FAQ clarifying that casting a spell and attacking with it are separate for the purpose of attacks of opportunity, I suppose that means you wouldn't be able to snipe with kinetic blast.

If I understand you correctly, your interpretation is that as long as making a ranged attack is the action that brought you out of hiding, and the last action before rehiding, you would be able to take a move action to snipe. Is that right? I agree that it's probably either your interpretation, or the one that prevents any kinetic blast sniping.

[Meirril]

Going to split hairs here. A Kinetesist performs an action called 'Kinetic Blast(sp)' as a standard action. They don't perform an attack action per se. There is also no provision to perform a 'full round action' Kinetic Blast to gain iterative attacks. 'Kinetic Blast(sp)' is treated as a type of weapon for feats.

Lets go over 'sniping' in Pathfinder. First is there is no 'sniping' action. 'Sniping' is a short hand for being hidden + making a ranged attack. The benefit is that your target is denied their dex mod against your ranged attack. Since Pathfinder says you're target is aware of the attacker's location with each attack, without Master Sniper your target would get its full defense against any attacks you make beyond the first.

Stealth requires you make a move action to hide. So if you want to 'snipe' you need to make a standard action to attack, and then a move action to hide. Master Sniper lets you do a full round action to make 2 ranged attacks at a -2 to hit for each attack, and move (to hide). Since you need Rapid Fire and Expert Sniper as prerequisits, the assumption is that you'd need to use an attack Rapid Fire would actually work on.

Now lets talk about why Kinetesist is such an odd choice. First, their powers cause a visible manifestation to travel from them to the target, generally like a firehose. While I suppose that could technically be done from hiding, a Kinetesists defensive powers make elements phyically manifest around them. Heavy winds, force shields, bubbles of water, skin blistering hot...not the sort of things that let you sit in a bush and be unnoticed. Lets not even mention Gather Power. Generally speaking a Kinetesist is suppose to be surrounded by floating figments of their elements while using their powers. Nothing about this is suppose to be quite or subtle. I just can't buy the idea of them not being noticed before they unleash their powers.

And also half of the Kinetic Blasts aren't ranged attacks. Only physical blasts are qualified as such. The energy blasts are considered ranged touch. This would be way too strange to apply a feat to physical blasts only.

And if the only limitation you're going to put on Master Sniper is that 'you get to make 2 attacks a round as long as its ranged' then I want to throw 2 disintegrates since those both resolve as ranged touch attacks.

[ErichAD]

Are you sure kinetic blast isn't an attack action? Between:
"As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet."
and
"Physical blasts are ranged attacks..."
It sounds like a standard action ranged attack. The specific exclusion of vital strike would also indicate that kinetic blast otherwise acts as an attack action and would have vital strike available to it.

I agree that there should be an explicit requirement that master sniper attacks be made with a rapid shot capable weapons. Though a cheaper and more useful two weapon fighting for thrown weapons wouldn't be a bad addition to the game.

That aside, sniping was changed along with the rest of stealth in an errata. Now the move action is to maintain your obscured location. The full round master sniper uses that same pattern.

I agree that kineticist is an awful choice for stealth based combat. In order to stay hidden they couldn't gather power, nor use defensive abilities, or elemental overflow. It's a bad match, but squeezing out a second kinetic blast would be more valuable than these other benefits.

[Cavall]

Well then the point is moot. Nothing will allow you more attacks than you could normally take for sniping. This would give you 2 if you could do 2. You cant. So it doesn't matter.

[Syries]

You could definitely snipe using standard actions kinetic blasts, as the only requirement is that you're already in stealth, which takes no action so long as you are able to stealth normally. I mean, if you're really reading into the fluff of kineticists, have them surprise their overflow so they appear normal. The stealth skill calls out taking a move action in order to use stealth after making a ranged attack. It doesn't have to be an attack action. You just have to make a ranged attack, and ranged touch attacks are still ranged attacks, so energy blasts are still fine.

Something fun I've been wanting to do for a while is have a character with high bluff warn enemies of their all-powerful sky god, and that they will smite the enemies should they wish to. Then high in the sky an aerokineticist with extreme range and airs reach gathers power for a thunder blast and hellcat stealth to snipe. -30 to their stealth check but at 700 feet above the ground enemies take a -70 to their perception check :)