As per PRD - Run:
A skeleton can run for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score (0) and must make a Constitution check (DC 10, +1 DC per round) or stop running.
As per PRD - Undead:
A skeleton uses his Charisma score in place of his Constitution for checks such as these.
Therefore, a skeleton can run for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma score (10) and must make a Charisma check (DC 10, +1 DC per round) or stop running and rest for 10 rounds before running again
That part of the undead entry (chr for con)is only for certain things and running is not 1 of them. I will check when i am back to my computer but i think undead can run all day.
Therefore, a skeleton can run for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma score (10) and must make a Charisma check (DC 10, +1 DC per round) or stop running and rest for 10 rounds before running again
Defining the fact that you cannot keep running because you are fatigued or exhausted would solve the problem, as undead are immune to exhaustion and fatigued effects. There is also this:
"•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."
Undead should have gotten a similar immunity to any effects that require a Constitution check.
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Until it pulls a muscle?
The only part of undead CHr for CON that would apply is using CHR for a "special ability that relies on Constitution."
I don't think running is a special ability.
This means that a skeleton (or any undead) can run for zero rounds.
I can see this making sense, although they never get tired and can keep going forever, they also can't put forth an 'extra effort' and move faster in exchange for a drain on their reserves. They just keep coming at their move (double move if desired.)
"It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."
They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.
It's troublesome, because the undead's constitution isn't 0. They simply don't have one. My feeling is that they simply can't run for the same reason that androids can't fulfill emotion components for psychic magic.
By the RAW. A skeleton can keep running so long as it can make the checks.
You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
Now, since a skeleton has a null stat for constitution it must make a constitution check immediately after round 1.
Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks.
So, it will roll a d20+0 to make a dc 10. If it succeeds at the check then it can continue to run but must make a d20+0 check against a dc 11 the following round. Once the skeleton fails it's check then it must "rest" for 10 rounds before it can resume running. Constructs seem to have a similar limitation.
Since running doesn't give you the exhausted condition this is what happens and neither undead nor constructs can simply "run forever" if anything they are really bad at it since they have to start making checks right away.
In any case, running gives you what could be described as a "tired" condition which is less severe then fatigued which actually applies stat penalties and requires 8 hours of rest to remove.
Forever. Fatigue is not an undead condition.
They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.
Forever. Fatigue is not an undead condition.
Running causes neither fatigue nor exhaustion.
Now, a skeleton can certainly Hustle and/or Forced March forever, since the downsides of those are nonlethal damage and fatigue (which they are immune to). That certainly falls in line with what movies tell us -- you can run away from the undead, but they'll always catch up to you.
They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.
Well, realistically, they couldn't run 'forever'. But I'd likely just look at the rules for wagons and see if I could adapt them.
They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.Well, realistically, they couldn't run 'forever'. But I'd likely just look at the rules for wagons and see if I could adapt them.
are there rules for wagons?
If I have a wagon being drawn by skeletal horses, is there something that says it can't just move forever?
It's an honest question, I don't remember seeing rules for vehicles and there being limits on how long they can travel. Just distances per day which I assumed were based purely on the vehicle's speed ratings.
Logically, their bones should wear down to dust pretty quickly while doing that, but maybe magic somehow makes up for it.
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They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.Well, realistically, they couldn't run 'forever'. But I'd likely just look at the rules for wagons and see if I could adapt them.are there rules for wagons?
If I have a wagon being drawn by skeletal horses, is there something that says it can't just move forever?
It's an honest question, I don't remember seeing rules for vehicles and there being limits on how long they can travel. Just distances per day which I assumed were based purely on the vehicle's speed ratings.
Strangely, the Overland Movement Rules say that a skeletal horse can hustle/move forever unless it is being used as a mount, in which case it dies just like a normal mount (but doesn't become fatigued doing so).
Mounted Movement: A mount bearing a rider can move at a hustle. The damage it takes when doing so, however, is lethal damage, not nonlethal damage. The creature can also be ridden in a forced march, but its Constitution checks automatically fail, and the damage it takes is lethal damage. Mounts also become fatigued when they take any damage from hustling or forced marches.
Since the damage is lethal, undead mounts have no immunity or resistance to it.
Makes sense. Fatigue or no, you're still doing a lot of physical damage to the creature by riding it into the ground.
are there rules for wagons?They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.Well, realistically, they couldn't run 'forever'. But I'd likely just look at the rules for wagons and see if I could adapt them.
Yeah, although I've never touched them, so I can't say what they might entail. I am pretty sure it comes up in the Jade Regent adventure path- you start off as part of a caravan, and you then travel to where plot happens. So they introduce a lot of wagon rules, including stat blocks and such (heck, the caravan even gets its own feats).
I've never that path, but I'd assume that there might be some kind of damage system to the wagon if you run it too hard.
They run forever since they are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.Forever. Fatigue is not an undead condition.Running causes neither fatigue nor exhaustion.
Hustling beyond one hour or a forced march, however, do. (Or not, in the case of those immune.)
Okay so maybe they can't use the run action, but hustling is good enough.
Okay so maybe they can't use the run action, but hustling is good enough.
I don't see why it can't take the run action and hustling is just doing a double move.
Because Run requires a constitution and undead don't have constitution.
Because Run requires a constitution and undead don't have constitution.
where does it say run requires a constitution?
your constitution score merely dictates how long you can run before you need to start making checks. If a creature without a constitution score needs to make a constitution check then they make that check with a +0 modifier, as per what I quoted above.
Run: A character can run for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score on the local scale without needing to rest.
No Constitution score, no running.
Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks.
That text only applies to constitution-based checks. Run requires a constitution score before checks even enter the picture.
Run: A character can run for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score on the local scale without needing to rest.No Constitution score, no running.
You left out the last line from the section you quoted.
A character can run for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score on the local scale without needing to rest. See Combat for rules covering extended periods of running.
when we look at the combat rules we see the following statement.
You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
"After that" would require you to get past "that". The undead can't do "that".
"After that" would require you to get past "that". The undead can't do "that".
It has no constitution stat. if I plug a zero into the sentence it reads just fine.
You can run for 0 rounds, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running.
On a side note, the Festrog (which is an undead creature with a null constitution stat) not only can run but has the run feat to augment it's running ability.
But their constitution isn’t 0. They don’t have one. It is null. It’s a very different thing mathematically and in game mechanics.
And specific trumps general. Undead can’t run unless specified otherwise. The festrog specifies otherwise.
And specific trumps general. Undead can’t run unless specified otherwise. The festrog specifies otherwise.
fair enough, except festrog isn't the only example of an undead creature that possesses the run feat.
Plagued Steeds, Dire ghoul wolves and Vukodlaks also have the run feat. But there is no text for those creatures saying that they can run.
That may show that there is an intention for undead to run, but the current text doesn't support that intention. Or it may just show that some of the designers who worked on these classes don't know how the rules work.
This thread has gone on too long for something that shouldn't have to be asked. My skeletons run forever, so beware at my table.
I always thought undead and constructs can run forever. It fits the whole theme of "unstoppable killing machine". and how would they get tired anyway?
The typical motif for these type of things (think Zombie movies or the original terminator) is that they don't run, but they just keep coming at a steady pace forever.
This doesn't have any bearing on whether the rules support if undead can run or not, but I think it is a decent reason to not have them run if you want to generate a similar feeling.