Making a Dragon Disciple's natural attacks viable

[Patol]

I've been looking into making a Dragon Disciple that only uses natural weapons (starting from DD lvl 2 and considering that draconic bloodline claws are permanent), but I realised how hard it was after understanding that natural attacks can't benefit from unarmed strike feats.

There's still the feral training feat, but it requires 2 feats per natural attack type, which is too much considering how many different types of natural weapon a DD has : claw + bite + head with mammoth lord helmet, but also wing and tail while in dragon form...

Do you think it's possible to make natural attacks viable as DD? If so, do you have to sacrifice sorcerer caster levels to do so?

[avr]

So you don't aim for unarmed strike feats. Power attack (& maybe cornugon smash/hurtful/shatter defenses) still works, spell buffs still work and you're a near-full spellcaster.

That said a sorcerer / dragon disciple could probably do with a dip in something to give it a little extra punch. Bloodrager 1 for example. Paladin 2 is a different one you might go with.

Are you after a complete build? If so, what level range are you looking at, and do you have any concept you're working with besides 'dragon disciple tearing enemies with teeth and claws'?

[Patol]

Well, i'd like to make one of the 2 following build :

• 1. Sorc 5 / DD 10 / Eldritch Knight 5 :

  -> STR stacking melee focused gish with prestigious caster to be able to use 9th level, and use the remaining feats to increase my melee potential and natural damage.

• 2. Bloodrager 5/DD10/Bloodrager 5 OR ??? 4/Sorcerer 1/DD10/???5:

  -> focus entirely on melee natural attacks and occasionally use some buffs. Way easier than the first but I have no idea what to do with this one. Also, the idea of being a weak caster feel pretty weird.
  

I'd prefer making the first build, as it offers some awesome spells like time stop, and the ability to spam form of the dragon, but with my current knowledge it seems impossible to make it viable.

However, if the second build is much better and makes natural attacks viable, i'm ready to hear your suggestions. Also, if the first build can work with something else than natural attacks, i'd be happy to hear how (the sorcerer's low bab makes manufactured weapons pretty hard to use)

PS : I know taking more than 8 level of DD isn't optimal, but I like the idea of having permanent wings (for the Flyby shenanigans) and spamming form of the dragon.

[Mysterious Stranger]

A dragon disciple’s claws are not permanent. Unless there has been some sort of recent change they sill have a limited number of rounds per day they can be used.

[avr]

All the way to 20, huh? I'm still skeptical that many people who ask for advice on that actually play such builds all the way. They tend to come back asking for advice on another character before they could have played the last up to 10th.

Anyway, for the first lets look at this. Eldritch knight needs full martial weapon proficiency. Without a dip or variant multiclassing the only way is for your race to be ganzi and to take the weaponplay ganzi oddity. Congratulations, something weird involving a valkyrie is in your family history.

Feats:
1: Amateur swashbuckler (dodging panache)
3: Power attack
5: Favored prestige class
7: Cornugon smash
DD 2 (7): Improved initiative
9: Hurtful
DD 5 (10): Great fortitude
11: Prestigious spellcaster
13: Encouraging spell
DD 8 (13): Quicken spell
15: Empower spell
17: Spell perfection (caustic blood maybe)
19: Extra contingency

Looking at this at 10th level assuming you're buffed with heroism & mage armour pre-fight and that you have time for one buff in-fight or just pre-fight (mirror image perhaps), with 18 strength by this point and a +2 belt making that 20 and the PrC pushing that to 24, and dex of 14, con of 16 say, a +1 cruel amulet of mighty fists, a +1 ring of protection, +2 cloak of resistance and a dusty rose prism ioun stone your combat stats might look like this:

AC 20 (+4 armor, +3 natural armor, +2 dex, +1 deflection)
Saves F +14 R +9 W +11
Attacks +16/+16/+16 1d6+8
w/power attack +14/+14/+14 1d6+12 (note that 1 more attack from hurtful would be normal vs. many enemies)

Comparing these to the bench-pressing stats you're between green and orange for most which is adequate but not great. AC is bad but assuming mirror image you're still looking good there. Is this good enough to be viable? Depends on your game.

[Patol]

@avr
I didn't know about the cornugon+hurtful combination,it seems pretty nice. From what I understand I have to focus on making more attacks instead of making them stronger...

I think i'll go in that direction. I won't be as strong as my teammates, but I'll be quite original, and when I reach lvl 12/13 I'll start spamming form of the dragon...

[Meirril]

The more you plan on doing natural attacks, the more you need an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Considering your class, you need the bonuses to hit rather than adding special abilities to your attacks.

At a certain point it will make more sense to cast Polymorph Any Object to permanently become a medium sized dragon than it will be to keep burning your abilities to temporarily become a dragon. You will still burn your abilities to use higher level version of Form of the Dragon but constantly being a medium sized dragon (that can use Alter Form to become humanoid again) is better than being a dragon temporarily.

You might also investigate getting Greater Magic Fang cast for you. Greater Magic Fang can be made permanent. Once you get into the +3 and above range the 7,500gp needed to make it permanent isn't all that incredibly expensive. This does mean getting it cast for every limb you use for attacks. If your GM allows the permanent GMF to remain when you transform from human to dragon getting this done makes more sense. If he doesn't, then you'd need to wait till you can permanently become a dragon.

Though by the time you can accomplish all of this, you are 1 step away from 9th level spells. Get a ring of continuation and cast Shapechange once a day. The ring will make Shapechange last an entire 24 hours.

[Rycaut]

Draconic Bloodline claws are not permanent - they are only for so many rounds per day (Dragon Disciple adds a bite attack when you use your bloodline claws ability - some GMs rule that it also applies when you use other claws but that is a house rule.

However you can still build a viable DD that uses natural attacks - you just need to focus on having other sources of natural attacks on top of your bloodline abilities - as well as having other things to do in combat.

- bloodrager might be a viable option to consider (less casting than a sorcerer dragon disciple however - but more martial ability)

- pick a race with natural attacks (but not a bite) - lots of options to get two natural claw attacks from your choice of races (if you can find a race that offers a natural attack that isn't a claw or a bite you can focus on that attack then for some number of rounds per day stack on the draconic bloodline claws & bite for even more attacks.

Natural attack builds suffer from getting thru DR at higher levels (due to the expense of enchanting an amulet of mighty fists) BUT if you can get many different natural attacks the expense can be worth it due to how many attacks you gain as your full BAB and STR bonus (which as a DD should be very high) - stacking on power attack as well as ideally other sources of bonus damage per attack is very effective. Paladin builds can offer limited way to handle DR (smite) but there may be better options for a natural attacking build (since you probably want minimal armor for greater mobility / easier spellcasting).

[Gisher]

Patol wrote:

...considering that draconic bloodline claws are permanent),...

Nope. As others have mentioned, the Sorcerer has this limitation.

CRB wrote:

Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases by one step to 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a successful hit. You can use your claws for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

The Bloodrager only gets claws while in a Bloodrage.

ACG wrote:

Bloodrager Bloodlines

When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal.

[avr]

As a sorcerer beating DR shouldn't be too hard. You can have spells like Apsu's shining scales or versatile weapon, or of course you can cast spells directly at your enemy.

[Dragonborn3]

Just houserule the claws back to at-will. Not only is that what they were originally, but now there are a plethora of ways to get claws that are usually a bit easier than taking a level in a class.

[Meirril]

I'm just going to ask the sane question: why is our non-transformed sorcerer going to walk up to melee combat and scratch somebody twice? I can see someone doing this at first level but after that? I can see a bloodrager doing that sure, but its a huge difference.

[Patol]

@Meirril

With cornugon/hurtful "scratching twice" quickly becomes "scraching thrice + bite + demoralize the opponent", and let's not forget the mammoth lord helmet gore attack you'll get once you can afford it.

For anyone wondering, we houseruled permanent DD claws.

[Rycaut]

Meirril wrote:

I'm just going to ask the sane question: why is our non-transformed sorcerer going to walk up to melee combat and scratch somebody twice? I can see someone doing this at first level but after that? I can see a bloodrager doing that sure, but its a huge difference.

Dragon Disciples don't play like regular casters - they have partial BAB, D12 hit dice, inherent boosts to STR, CON (and later INT), a bite on top of the draconic bloodline claws, natural AC boosts and more - they can be played like nearly full casters who happen to be very very strong and physical - or they can be nearly full martial characters who just happen to have a fair amount of casting (exactly what type depends on what arcane spontaneous caster class they chose) or they can be played as something in-between. Which can indeed mean a caster that happens to get very very physical (focusing on Transmutation spells/buffs can help this type of build)

But the short answer is - they are not typically statted out like a typical sorcerer - if you are going Dragon Disciple it is likely that your STR will be close to your CHA (may even be equal or higher), you likely have a higher CON than typical casters as well - and you may also have taken some levels in a martial class. I've built Dragon Disciples that wear heavy armor (a Paladin/Bard/Dragon Disciple who is careful to select only spells without somatic components to avoid arcane armor failure - unless it doesn't really matter like cantrips such as detect magic). My gnome sorcerer/ dragon disciple originally also had 2 levels of fighter (lore warden) but I retrained one of those. He was primarily a caster - but could also handle himself in the midst of combat quite quite well.

For both the claws and bite are used only as needed (for the paladin largely to get a secondary natural attack (bite) that will benefit from smite evil)

[Syries]

Unchained monk (Scaled Fist), Weapon Focus (Bite), Feral Combat Training. If you want to go Natural Attack build.
Don't worry about the claws, just Flurry with the bite attack. With Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity, at DD level 2 you're doing 1d6+2xStr mod on a flurry, with the extra 50% bonus dmg with power attack. At 6th level DD you add your elemental damage on top of that.

I have a PFS dragon disciple monk that decided to just stick with unarmed strikes rather than claws/bite, he's pumping out 1d10+20 ish for 5 attack per round at level 10.