Thematic (and potentially mechanical) Questions about the World of Pathfinder 2


Prerelease Discussion


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1) How powerful are Level 1 PCs compared to Average Joes? About how many commoners can a level 1 fighter upset before he is in over his head? Obviously they are tougher than the Average Joe, but do they need to watch their manners around the common folk or can they take a small village in a bar fight?

PF1 assumes that commoners average a 10.5 in their stats while "heroic" NPCs and PCs a have a 12 average.

PF2 gives PCs a 13 average (by my calculations), so what are commoners at now? If they are still at 10.5, then what fills the gap?

2) What makes PCs so special? Do they have exceptional genes? Are they blessed by divinity? Are they chosen by the cosmos to be great heroes (or terrible villains)? Does the plot just demand that they be powerful, and if so, can I rip out that aspect of the game without breaking it?

3) How many months/days/years of "experience" does a level 1 character have in their field of study on average before they become "level 1"? I assume that you can't just pick up a sword and become a fighter or skim a spellbook and become a wizard, so how long does it take? Does it vary by class? If so, should that not be represented in some form during character creation?

4) If all you need to learn how to cast basic magic in Golarion is an average intelligence, why don't more people know magic? I can imagine Prestidigitation would be quite useful for the Average Joe in a medieval fantasy world.

5) Why do all sorcerers have the same approximate levels of talent? Shouldn't some sorcerers have more or less bloodline power? Why do all sorcerers of the same bloodline manifest their powers in approximately the same way?

6) If elves (for example) are more Dexterous than humans on average, then how come the potential for elves when it comes to Dexterity is no higher than virtually any other race? (Feel free to substitute "elf" for any other race and "Dexterity" for any other race's racially boosted stats.)


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2) Dunno about the reason. But removing it would either mean powering up every one else of gutting PCs. You could do this possibly by removing all the level related components I suppose. But if you want to play this style of game, literally any game designed with grittiness in mind will serve you better.

5) They don't. Most sorcerers won't get past level 5 in world. And they manifest in approximately the same way because Paizo don't have infinite book space to print multiple variations of the same mechanic.

6) Being better on average does not mean your upper limits are higher. It can be achieved by having your lower limits be higher for example (e.g minimum 12 Dexterity)


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1) Assume a Level 1 PC can take an Average Joe 1-on-1 without trouble, unless the Average Joe is inherently lucky. Action economy is still going to be a thing, so that should make up the number gap (if there is one). Speculation on this point is also incredibly hypothetical, since we haven't seen an example of an NPC stat block yet.

2) PCs are special because when something happened, they are the ones that stepped up. Any Level 1 Fighter could be a fighter because they joined the army, or were trained by a master warrior, or spent several years as a Merchant's Guard learning to protect others. A Wizard is a Wizard because they dedicated themself to years of study under a master, or attended a Wizard's College. The difference is that the PCs were the ones in the right place at the right time. If it helps, populate your world with random level 1 PC classed NPCs who weren't there when things went down - who could just as easily have become the PCs had they been in that town instead of them.

3) This purely flavor, although in PF1, the random age chart was broken down into three different modifiers - one for self-taught classes like Sorcerer, one for semi-trained classes like Fighter, and one for purely taught classes like Wizard. That may be part of character creation in PF2 - we don't know that, yet, so we can't say for sure.

4) Most people lack the opportunity - how many towns just happen to have a Wizard living in them who's willing to take on more than one apprentice at a time, let alone willing to teach all of the common folk in a town basic wizardry? If you're a cobbler, you've gotta work most of the day making shoes and boots, or selling shoes and boots, and that doesn't leave time to dedicate 8 hours a day to studying to be a Wizard as well. And getting into Wizard's College is probably like getting into an Ivy League school in the real world - you're either one of the brightest, your dad has the money to make a donation, or he's friends with the dean.

Malk_Content already answered 5 and 6 the way I would have, so I won't repeat myself.

Lantern Lodge

I know that Oracles have different levels of bloodline in 1st edition from my Dragon bloodline oracle. There are feats he took that gain him additional bloodline things, provided he has the base of Dragon. I suspect something similar will be available for Sorcerers, where they can make choices to level up bloodline things rather than magic things.

Boojum


I doubt there will be any explicit answer to any of these save number 1) which we will find out soon.

2) For the most part PCs are special because they are the focus of the story you are telling. I don't think there should be any restrictions on why any one or group of PCs are special. It could be any one of the reasons you mentioned and more to boot as the story requires.

3) as many, or as few, as you need for that character. Stories abound of people finding their feet after years of training and others that are gifted naturals - both are equally valid and again the rules should not limit either one.

4) I've never held to the belief that anyone can use magic. I don't believe the rules have specified that one way or the other, I doubt they will in PF2. The fact that not everyone picks up a level of a spellcasting class implies some restriction.

5) game balance - doesn't apply to NPCs though - you can have one who's power is bleeding out and infecting everyone around them, or one that can barely muster a single ability.


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Paizo won't and shouldn't answer these questions. Doing so would largely only restrict the kinds of stories you can tell with the system.


5) With the bloodline evolution feats this isn't the case anymore. Sorcerers that take them are influenced stronger by their bloodline.
And I guess there is not only one evolution feat per bloodline, so there will also be variance.

Liberty's Edge

1. There are level 0 foes, who appear to be between CR 1/3 and CR 1/2 in PF1 terms, for the most part. Most average joes probably fall under that category. 1st level PCs can thus probably handle about two or three of them. Maybe more like 4 for an optimized character.

As for stats...stats are less important to NPCs than they used to be. That may make up the 'difference' all by itself. Or NPCs may have somewhat higher stats by default.

2. There was no answer to this in PF1, why would there be in PF2? You can remove this difference by making all NPCs with the PC rules, or making them level 1 by default with higher stats, or various things like that. Though I'm not sure why you would, PCs being exceptional is fun.

3. Probably about the same as in PF1 (where you started at 16-27 as a human depending on Class). There are probably guidelines for this in the book, yes.

4. In PF1, you need the equivalent of a college degree in one of the hard sciences to learn to be a Wizard (the only kind of magic you can learn in school), and most farmer's kids don't have the spare money and maybe 8 years free to get the schooling just to learn prestidigitation. Really smart kids can get apprenticed if they want, but everyone involved almost certainly thinks it's a waste for the Int 10-12 guy (unless his rich parents are paying for it or something). All evidence suggests this will remain true in PF2.

5. They don't? Sorcerers manifest very different spells (75% of their spells vary by individual), they have Cha scores anywhere from 12 to 18, and (like all characters in-world) they level at wildly different rates. There are certain commonalities, since being descended from Dragons and Angels are two different things and effect you differently, but there are more differences than similarities.

6. Elves weren't any higher Dex than Dex-focused humans in PF1 either. As to why, I think it comes down to PCs being exceptional. The average Elf is more agile than the average human, but some humans are exceptional. It's a conceit to game balance in many ways, but not an onerous one.


Brock Landers wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:


2) Dunno about the reason. But removing it would either mean powering up every one else of gutting PCs. You could do this possibly by removing all the level related components I suppose.

Yeah, Deadmanwalking mentioned that, I really like it, so a 20th-level Fighter is looking at like a +9 to hit, before items (+15 with max magic +X items).

I removed +1/2 level from 4th Ed, and that worked really well.

Thats fine. I would consider it myself if I wanted a game that allowed a more retstricted scope of challenges. But your PCs are still going to be ridiculously overpowered because of having nearly 20x the HP for example. When I said all level related components, I meant everything that just happens when you level (Resonance included in this as well)


thflame wrote:

1) How powerful are Level 1 PCs compared to Average Joes? About how many commoners can a level 1 fighter upset before he is in over his head? Obviously they are tougher than the Average Joe, but do they need to watch their manners around the common folk or can they take a small village in a bar fight?

PF1 assumes that commoners average a 10.5 in their stats while "heroic" NPCs and PCs a have a 12 average.

PF2 gives PCs a 13 average (by my calculations), so what are commoners at now? If they are still at 10.5, then what fills the gap?

I don't know. Background NPCs won't bother with full character creation rules, but I doubt they'll be worse than unproficient with all 10s.

thflame wrote:
2) What makes PCs so special? Do they have exceptional genes? Are they blessed by divinity? Are they chosen by the cosmos to be great heroes (or terrible villains)? Does the plot just demand that they be powerful, and if so, can I rip out that aspect of the game without breaking it?

I don't know, what does make PCs so special in your game? It can be any of those things, because the actual answer is "they have players". And sure, you can run a game without the PCs ever leveling. E6 was designed to make that more interesting, and the abundance of feat types should only serve to improve E6.

thflame wrote:
3) How many months/days/years of "experience" does a level 1 character have in their field of study on average before they become "level 1"? I assume that you can't just pick up a sword and become a fighter or skim a spellbook and become a wizard, so how long does it take? Does it vary by class? If so, should that not be represented in some form during character creation?

It depends on the class. I'm basing this off the setting being the same. Becoming a wizard requires years of training, while sorcerers are often born with it. It probably shouldn't be represented in character creation, though, beyond maybe optional random starting age tables.

thflame wrote:
4) If all you need to learn how to cast basic magic in Golarion is an average intelligence, why don't more people know magic? I can imagine Prestidigitation would be quite useful for the Average Joe in a medieval fantasy world.

Because you need more than just average intelligence. You need years of expensive training. One of the most prestigious schools in the inner sea region has a 20% fatality rate for the first year of study. Prestidigitation is useful, but it's not that useful.

thflame wrote:
5) Why do all sorcerers have the same approximate levels of talent? Shouldn't some sorcerers have more or less bloodline power? Why do all sorcerers of the same bloodline manifest their powers in approximately the same way?

Not all sorcerers have the same approximate level of talent. They vary greatly in power, the same as fighters vary greatly in power or wizards vary greatly in power. Sorcerers of the same level have consistent power. As for why they manifest their powers in the same way, that's because we don't printed substitution options like PF1 yet.

thflame wrote:
6) If elves (for example) are more Dexterous than humans on average, then how come the potential for elves when it comes to Dexterity is no higher than virtually any other race? (Feel free to substitute "elf" for any other race and "Dexterity" for any other race's racially boosted stats.)

Because being better on average doesn't automatically raise the limits of physical or mental performance.

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