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Now that we have a level 1 ranged healing spell (Heal spell, see the blog), it can be heightened on the fly, and no character can be reduced below zero hit points, we now have the exact mechanics that D&D 5E has. In 5E, many people have complained that it's too hard to die.
How is Pathfinder different? Will PF2 have the same problem, where a PC gets dropped and immediately gets back on their feet by a ranged heal spell? Should there be some ongoing penalty or condition after being dropped? Dropped 1, 2, 3, etc.
Healing Word is Wrecking Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition Games
I guess we won't know until we get the playtest, but I hope it won't be the same, with PCs falling and rising each combat. That's really silly. When you get dropped, it should be SIGNIFICANT, even if you don't die.
The ongoing penalty is Dying. It sticks after you get up, and falls off 1/round you stay up. Even then, having 1 HP just means you're stable, and still have to make a Fort save to regain consciousness.
As has already been shown in the preview material, being at positive hit points doesn't wake you up anymore, you still have to make checks to regain consciousness. In addition, as Malk said, your dying levels also stay active even once you do wake up, so if you do down again, you're that much closer to dying.
Fun.
Well for starters, only very rarely can healing spells "be heightened on the fly." So far only the Sorc can do that, and only if they select Heal as one of their two Spontaneous Heightening spells for the day. Bards will probably be in a similar situation, possibly even worse (Bards might only have 1 Spont Heightening, or even none, we just don't know yet) so at-will Heal heightening will be rare.
Now Clerics will be getting a pool of auto-heightening Heals, but that pool is limited based on a secondary stat. As for normal Heal spells, they're limited by spell slots, of which you get a max of 3-4 per spell level, and in the case of prepped caster they each have to be prepped ahead of time.
Of course, another restriction is just numerical. In 5e healing scales by 1d4 every odd level or so, while a fighter only very slowly scales their damage output (two attacks at 5, 3 at 11, 4 at 20.) Contrast PF2e's system. At level 1 you might be able to hit three times, and the martially inclined are quite likely to hit at least twice. And the damage of each attack is scaling by an entire damage die every time you gain a +1 (something that happens much more frequently in 5e). Even a level 9 Heal (17d6+Casting Stat) healing is going to be hard-pressed to keep up with 10-15d12+(2-3xStrength) greatswords, especially when you can do the healing at most 4 times and the greatsword can beat on you all day.
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Stabilize is a much better option for playing Whack-A-Fighter, considering it is a 30 ft. range VS Cantrip that moves the target from 0 to 1 hp. Why would I waste Heals that way?
As has already been shown in the preview material, being at positive hit points doesn't wake you up anymore, you still have to make checks to regain consciousness. In addition, as Malk said, your dying levels also stay active even once you do wake up, so if you do down again, you're that much closer to dying.
OK thanks everyone for addressing my concerns.
I also think that when you regain consciousness you only get 2 actions instead of three for one round. I might be wrong with that but I remember seeing it somewhere
Stabilize is a much better option for playing Whack-A-Fighter, considering it is a 30 ft. range VS Cantrip that moves the target from 0 to 1 hp. Why would I waste Heals that way?
With heal they are more likely to survive a round and recover from the dying condition rather than get dropped again this time at dying 2.
Maybe if I use a high level slot yes... but the issue referenced by the OP has a lot more to do with the range and recastibility of the spell than how many HP it restores.
Besides, I argue any Heal efficient enough to mitigate average incomming damage for your level is also probably to precious to waste on a fighter too stupid to retreat after being dropped repeatedly.
5th Edition D&D allows Fighters to bounce from dying to alive with so little consequence they have less reason to retreat (even at 1 HP) if their healer still has Words of Healing left. Thankfully that is unlikely to be the case due to the Dying condition lingering, and requiring a check to awaken.
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Now that we have a level 1 ranged healing spell (Heal spell, see the blog), it can be heightened on the fly, and no character can be reduced below zero hit points, we now have the exact mechanics that D&D 5E has. In 5E, many people have complained that it's too hard to die.
How is Pathfinder different? Will PF2 have the same problem, where a PC gets dropped and immediately gets back on their feet by a ranged heal spell? Should there be some ongoing penalty or condition after being dropped? Dropped 1, 2, 3, etc.
Healing Word is Wrecking Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition Games
I guess we won't know until we get the playtest, but I hope it won't be the same, with PCs falling and rising each combat. That's really silly. When you get dropped, it should be SIGNIFICANT, even if you don't die.
Big chunk of that video's problem involves the 5e action economy. Because healing word is basically free action-wise, and recovering from prone doesn't impede the barbarian's attacks, using it in combat has little cost.
But in PF2, heal has a significant action cost. The 1-2 action versions (which are probably the combat-relevant versions) both might be preventing attacks or movement or additional spells or shield raising for the caster. The downed PC also presumably still has to get up off the ground giving them an action disadvantage or sticking them with a significant AC penalty and greatly reduced mobility.
In addition, using the heal on only one person might be a pretty significant opportunity cost. If the whole party is damaged in the fight, and one person is dropped, healing only them means you now have fewer AoE heals for the party which makes this fight harder. On the other hand, if you use your whole turn to heal everyone including the downed PC then you have spent your whole turn on healing instead of stopping the damage source.
That healing doesn't return a PC to the fight immediately is icing, but even if that wasn't in place I would suspect heal to be less problematic than 5e's healing word.
healing word wasn't broken on its own in 5e and it really doesn't need to be nerfed or banned. healing word is an issue that could be mitigated by clever use of intelligent monster tactics.
monsters can also have classes and chill touch is basically a spell that stops healing for a round. there is also a few acid spells that inflict damage on the next round, there is the use of terrain features, such as a group of kobolds igniting barrels of oil to start a fight inside fire which could burn the downed PC every round, causing either a wasted healing word or failed death save. and there is also having enough enemies make ranged attacks to the point where one healing word a round won't save your party. there is also the smart thing of monsters targeting the healer the moment they can identify said healer.
even wolves know to flank the obvious healer over playing whack a mole with the barbarian. the healer is usually in most cases less armored and wearing a less dangerous weapon. the only class with healing word that can wear anything better than studded leather or spidersilk is the cleric, and the cleric usually wears scale unless their domain gives them plate. and if your cleric has plate and shield, they are likely martially focused due to the strength requirements of plate. meaning those points in strength are coming at a cost, and if they have the strength to wear plate, they are probably war domain and not healing domain, meaning they are probably healing for 1d4+2 instead of 1d4+6.
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PF2 seems to be pushing the 5e phenomena, albeit with a bit more of a penalty (the Dying condition). We're not sure if there is a Remove Dying Condition action (or spell), and what action it is to use it is.
They have mentioned that if you take enough damage past your HP in a single hit you can die outright. We don't know how much damage that is, but it can happen.
It also seems pretty directly counter to their stated design goals to have something remove Dying, so I doubt it's an easy thing to do.
I agree, Dying stacks seem to fade at the rate of 1 per round (like many conditions). So even when you are healed amd consious you remain at deaths door for a few moments!
it wasn't healing word that is the issue. it is the game master's fault due to lack of interesting encounter design and lack of use of monstrous tactics. essentially, the whack a mole problem is because the game master allows the whack a mole problem. the solution isn't to nerf healing word but to make encounters more interesting, make them more dynamic and actually have monsters use thier own limited use abilities or consumables to use against the players.
arguably, giving low level monsters classes or giving the terrain interesting features could balance things, or simply having the monsters play smarter and threaten the healer, who will likely be easier to damage than the barbarian.
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As has already been shown in the preview material, being at positive hit points doesn't wake you up anymore, you still have to make checks to regain consciousness. In addition, as Malk said, your dying levels also stay active even once you do wake up, so if you do down again, you're that much closer to dying.
So, not a simplified system then.