| Klarkash-Ton |
my experience at PaizoCon left me less than enthusiastic, in fact I'd say I'll pass on the game at this point.
While the idea of three actions per round was graphically pressed, I'd remind people that 3.0 started with just free, move, standard, and full round actions. It differentiated and developed from there adding swift actions. There is no limit to free and swift actions (an issue IMO).
Wizards with just 3 spells AND having them limited to "in round" or single event effectiveness is unacceptable. The spell system was very undeveloped and disappointing, Shield spell is a one shot where you are better off with a 3 or 4 small metal shields and dropping them as they become ineffective. At this point in time wizards are ineffective.
Clerics were a bit better as clearly healing had been looked at and expanded in some ways, not in others. The spells were a disappointment(but not so bad as the wizard spells) but more time seemed to have been spent on the spells.
The whizbang factor of goblins is a don't care, so long as the class is balanced. More of a PR thing of having something that you couldn't have before.
| Malk_Content |
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Do you get the whole spell list and were able to pick freely? If not I don't think I'd find any of this particularly damning. If it was running a convention table I'd absolutely give pregens the most basic possible spells for ease of explanation and running.
Did the PF1 wizard have more than 3 spells at first level?
| thflame |
I'd like to mention that the limit on Free Actions in PF1 is based on GM discretion and many Free Actions are limited to one use per round.
You are allowed ONE Swift action per round, unless you dump a Move or a Standard Action.
That being said, I'm not sure I understand your issue with PF2 spellcasting.
If your issue is with having to spend an action to raise the Shield every round, then I agree with you. Paizo derped hard here and if I even decide to play PF2, that is getting house-ruled hard(along with a lot of the other stupid Action bleeding rules decisions).
That being said, if you aren't proficient with physical shields, you take the untrained penalty to your AC, so a wizard is, unfortunately, still better off with the spell.
Attempting to use a shield without being trained in its use is worthless, as the bonus you get from having the shield is completely offset by the penalty for not being trained in its use. The shield granted from the Shield spell counts as "trained" for the wizard and is actually somewhat useful.
| Fuzzypaws |
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Wizards in PF1 didn't get a ton of spells per day at level 1 either. At least now you get cantrips that are actually useful for stuff to do all day.
That said, I will definitely be examining the feel and usefulness of the class at low levels in comparison to other classes. If virtually every other class can be really useful all day long at 1st level but the wizard is still left behind after just one or two encounters, that may require attention in the form of new class abilities to recharge spell slots, or more and better school powers, or an ability that doesn't use either spell points or spell slots, or something.
I would actually like the wizard to get two spell tracks, or at least two cantrip tracks. Specifically, so you can prepare both Combat and Utility powers, without feeling you are losing out on either by focusing on the other. I guess we'll see how it works out in practice though.
Re the Shield spell in particular, I am glad to see it be an at will, rather than something only useful in a single encounter because of its short duration. The balance for that is only getting to block with it once. However, what I would like is for the spell to last more than just 1 round, so if you actually aren't forced to block with it in the turn it goes up you don't have to waste another action in your next turn putting it back up again.
| Darksol the Painbringer |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
my experience at PaizoCon left me less than enthusiastic, in fact I'd say I'll pass on the game at this point.
While the idea of three actions per round was graphically pressed, I'd remind people that 3.0 started with just free, move, standard, and full round actions. It differentiated and developed from there adding swift actions. There is no limit to free and swift actions (an issue IMO).
Wizards with just 3 spells AND having them limited to "in round" or single event effectiveness is unacceptable. The spell system was very undeveloped and disappointing, Shield spell is a one shot where you are better off with a 3 or 4 small metal shields and dropping them as they become ineffective. At this point in time wizards are ineffective.
Clerics were a bit better as clearly healing had been looked at and expanded in some ways, not in others. The spells were a disappointment(but not so bad as the wizard spells) but more time seemed to have been spent on the spells.
The whizbang factor of goblins is a don't care, so long as the class is balanced. More of a PR thing of having something that you couldn't have before.
Free Actions were limited by GM FIAT, which is rare, but in most cases GM FIAT wouldn't really play into consideration. The "three free actions and ranged characters" debacle is a prime example of why it didn't. However, Swifts were limited to once per turn, and semi-shared an allotment with Immediate Actions (which is now Reaction in this game), so it's not like people could play Warpriests or Magi and auto-nova whatever they wanted.
What levels were you playing at? Low level spellcasters will more often than not have less tools to play with, and will most likely be relying on cantrips to maintain constant effectiveness, while using their few spells for the big moments where it will make a difference. That's kind of how it was in PF1. Sure, you had 5 spells instead (as well as any bonuses from class) if you were a certain kind of spellcaster, but that's honestly too much. Sure, cantrips were garbage past 3rd level, where you had 6 or more 1st level spells, and some 2nd level spells to tango with (usually 3 or 4), and truly optimized spellcasters would end an adventuring day by themselves using those spell slots, but then what are the rest of the party doing? Playing "Keep Away" with the party Cleric's Holy Symbol, which moves 20 feet in Full Plate? They might as well if spellcasters were so powerful as to solo encounters that martials and other forms of characters simply couldn't.
As such, spells had to be curtailed some to help balance martials and other characters into being less bad or unimportant compared to PF1 spellcasters. Cutting down on the amount of big spells you have, as well as their overall effectiveness (the four tiers of saves), makes spellcasters less swingy in terms of how strong they are and the impact they can have on a battlefield, most notably in the Save or Die category.
Seriously, there are so many Save or Suck/Die spells (effects in general) in PF1 (accessible from 1st level, and only get worse as spell levels progress) that, unless you have God saves (or at the very least, God Will saves), or some form of immunity, you might as well just scrunch your character sheet into a ball, throw it in the trashcan, and grab a new character sheet to start fresh, hopefully learning your lesson about playing a garbage martial character and picking up the spellcaster master race like you should have. And that's spells that actually permit a saving throw. Heaven forbid you come across the ones that are just as bad, and don't even let you fight back, which can and do exist, and can be (and have been) used against you.
I know you were joking with the whole "carry multiple shields" statement, but that ought to be very clunky (since you have to draw out and equip those shields, taking two or more actions), and also very difficult to deal with due to how the new weight issues work, since I doubt that Wizard will have more than 10 or 12 Strength, for obvious reasons. (Unless he's a "Magus", but that's a whole separate issue.)