Thanks for the input ahead of time. So im pretty use to my friends and I playing strong bad ass adventuring parties where everyone has a niche and sits into it. This one time however, id like to just let the party do its thing and be kind of a skill monkey, but more than that, I want to be completely.....ordinary. I thought it would be fun to build like a 15 year old human girl and give her the unchained rogue class so i can free up a lot of feats id want to use for general skill stuff. The character would be on point buy...kind of? Id spend no points at all so her stats would be flat all the way around except for her plus 2 to one stat. I wanted her to be a thief with general use skills like perception, rogue skills, and things like appraise if possible. How could I make her the best little thief she could be with no extra points until she starts gaining levels? Clearly id want to avoid combat if possible by sneaking or talking so what are your thoughts?
In all honesty this is not going to work. The problem is that to a low level character stats are too important to completely ignore them. At first level you can put a single point into a skill. That means if it is a class skill you will have a +4 bonus. This may seem like a decent amount but it really is not.
You will have a 20% chance to appraise common goods. But you have a 50% chance to be wildly inaccurate in your appraisal. You are over twice as likely to think a piece of junk is valuable as you are to correctly identify the value of a blanket.
You will have a 25% chance to fail to hear a person walking up behind you that is not using stealth. If the person has a decent stealth roll then your chances are almost nonexistent.
You will have a 20% chance of being able to pick the simplest locks, and have no chance to pick an average lock. You will be 3rd level before you even have a chance to disarm the simplest magical trap.
A better idea would be to distribute your points evenly so you have a +1 to +2 bonuses on all stats but one, and a +3 bonus on one stat. A +2 or +3 bonus may not seem like much but it really changes the odds. Now instead of having being constantly ripped off by merchants you have equal chance to properly identify the loot as to be mistaken, and normally you will at least be in the ball park.
In all honesty this is not going to work. The problem is that to a low level character stats are too important to completely ignore them. At first level you can put a single point into a skill. That means if it is a class skill you will have a +4 bonus. This may seem like a decent amount but it really is not.
You will have a 20% chance to appraise common goods. But you have a 50% chance to be wildly inaccurate in your appraisal. You are over twice as likely to think a piece of junk is valuable as you are to correctly identify the value of a blanket.
You will have a 25% chance to fail to hear a person walking up behind you that is not using stealth. If the person has a decent stealth roll then your chances are almost nonexistent.
You will have a 20% chance of being able to pick the simplest locks, and have no chance to pick an average lock. You will be 3rd level before you even have a chance to disarm the simplest magical trap.
A better idea would be to distribute your points evenly so you have a +1 to +2 bonuses on all stats but one, and a +3 bonus on one stat. A +2 or +3 bonus may not seem like much but it really changes the odds. Now instead of having being constantly ripped off by merchants you have equal chance to properly identify the loot as to be mistaken, and normally you will at least be in the ball park.
I feel like youre missing the point. The characters failures or success will have a lot to do with maximizing feat use for skills, allotting skill ranks and high rolls. She is ABSOLUTELY REGULAR, thats the point.
Rather than trying to dissuade you, I'm going to assume you're set on this idea and go ahead and recommend the phantom thief rogue archetype. It basically gives up the whole "combat" thing to become even more versatile with skills, and I would normally never even think about recommending it, but it really is extraordinarily ordinary.
You lose sneak attack altogether, but in return you get plenty of skill bonuses, a whole bunch of skill unlocks, and literally every class skill in the game except Fly. You also gain the ability to take vigilante talents - everyman and feign innocence could be great for the unremarkable demeanor, and picks like social grace, skill familiarity, or ancestral enlightenment could really help with the skill monkey thing.
All in all, you'll have all sorts of chances to shine outside of combat. But once in a while, there will be fights you can't talk your way out of, and you won't want to just stand there unable to help. So how could a character like this contribute in combat? Well, you can provide bonuses to your allies. Aid another would be great for someone who tends to stay out of the limelight, boosted with traits like Adopted (Helpful) and Fools for Friends, and eventually magic items like benevolent armor or a ring of tactical precision. Intimidate is helpful if you invest in it a bit and grab the skill unlock, and you could even put that Bluff skill to use helping your allies' attacks hit with Greater Feint. You can also use your words to help out with feats like Combat Advice, and if you boost your Cha to 13 at 4th level you can qualify for Battle Cry at 5th.
But if you'd rather be skulking in the shadows than cheering from the sidelines, might I suggest chipping in with some alchemical items? I'm not quite sure why, but to me they've always embodied the image of the mundane adventurer doing their best to deal with bizarre situations. There are the classics like smokesticks and tanglefoot bags, of course, but there are all sorts of other ways to inflict lovely conditions without a save. Burst jars can deafen, ghast retch flasks can sicken, shard gel can impede movement, skyrocket fireworks can blind... the only limit is your own imagination.
Finally, this might be veering a bit from the concept, but the phantom thief can also take the minor magic and major magic rogue talents as much as they want, and the unchained rogue versions actually make it worth it. What sort of appraisal couldn't use some help from detect magic, or what sort of sneaking couldn't use a well-timed vanish?
Rather than trying to dissuade you, I'm going to assume you're set on this idea and go ahead and recommend the phantom thief rogue archetype. It basically gives up the whole "combat" thing to become even more versatile with skills, and I would normally never even think about recommending it, but it really is extraordinarily ordinary.
You lose sneak attack altogether, but in return you get plenty of skill bonuses, a whole bunch of skill unlocks, and literally every class skill in the game except Fly. You also gain the ability to take vigilante talents - everyman and feign innocence could be great for the unremarkable demeanor, and picks like social grace, skill familiarity, or ancestral enlightenment could really help with the skill monkey thing.
All in all, you'll have all sorts of chances to shine outside of combat. But once in a while, there will be fights you can't talk your way out of, and you won't want to just stand there unable to help. So how could a character like this contribute in combat? Well, you can provide bonuses to your allies. Aid another would be great for someone who tends to stay out of the limelight, boosted with traits like Adopted (Helpful) and Fools for Friends, and eventually magic items like benevolent armor or a ring of tactical precision. Intimidate is helpful if you invest in it a bit and grab the skill unlock, and you could even put that Bluff skill to use helping your allies' attacks hit with Greater Feint. You can also use your words to help out with feats like Combat Advice, and if you boost your Cha to 13 at 4th level you can qualify for Battle Cry at 5th.
But if you'd rather be skulking in the shadows than cheering from the sidelines, might I suggest chipping in with some alchemical items? I'm not...
this is something i can get behind, though i dont like the idea of totally dropping sneak attack completely. Especially since her stats and such start at base, i never said i didnt plan to slowly increase one of two of them over the course of the game. I even considered going alchemist over rogue so she could be more helpful, my idea was to pump her UMD as much as possible outside of skills so she could aid her party with wands she has stollen over the course of their adventure. I also like the rogue tallent that allows you to make rolls for all knowledge skills that are untrained so she might be a hidden well of knowledge if needed.
Unless you are starting out at high level you simply do not have enough feats and skill points to be able to make an effective character without any stats.
Assuming you go human that gives you only two feats at first level. If you chose the alternative human trait focused study you will eventually get two extra skill focus. Put your initial skill focus to perception and choose your alertness as your other feat. This will give you a +9 Perception, and a +6 sense motive. You will also have 7 other skills at +4. That and a +2 reflex save is all you will have.
Take the same character but have a DEX of 16 and all other stats at 12. This character has a +10 perception +7 sense motive. It also has +8 in disable device, +7 stealth and sleight of hand, 4 other skills at +5, 4 skills at +3 and 5 skills at +1.
A low level character relies more on stats than on class abilities. Until you reach about 4th or 5th level you need stats to survive.
I understand perfectly what you are trying to do, but it will not work. You are not playing a regular person you are playing someone below average. The basic NPC array is 13,12, 11, 10, 9, 8 before racial adjustments. Your character is below that.
Unless you are starting out at high level you simply do not have enough feats and skill points to be able to make an effective character without any stats.
Assuming you go human that gives you only two feats at first level. If you chose the alternative human trait focused study you will eventually get two extra skill focus. Put your initial skill focus to perception and choose your alertness as your other feat. This will give you a +9 Perception, and a +6 sense motive. You will also have 7 other skills at +4. That and a +2 reflex save is all you will have.
Take the same character but have a DEX of 16 and all other stats at 12. This character has a +10 perception +7 sense motive. It also has +8 in disable device, +7 stealth and sleight of hand, 4 other skills at +5, 4 skills at +3 and 5 skills at +1.
A low level character relies more on stats than on class abilities. Until you reach about 4th or 5th level you need stats to survive.
I understand perfectly what you are trying to do, but it will not work. You are not playing a regular person you are playing someone below average. The basic NPC array is 13,12, 11, 10, 9, 8 before racial adjustments. Your character is below that.
I have 3 things to note. They arent combat effective. Im totally aware of that. Im hiding behind 3 people with regular to epic point buy. Im NOT in the fray, a battle begins? They roll initiative? I roll to hide or to run. She isnt a combatant. You know how you survive? You dont get into trouble. This isnt my first character with really poor stats, technicaly i had a character with 4 negatives and 2 above averages once because of a crazy roll system we used, they lived to 6th level.
Did you know, if you read the core rule book, under character creation, it says that "10" is average?
Say i did decide instead to use a character with npc stats. On Point by the difference between what you suggested and flat 10s before race bonus is 3 points......3....
Whats the worst thing that happens? She dies? Who cares. She isnt made to be some sneak attack crit machine, she is just a fun little thief that is suppose to tag along to a party of bad asses, doing neat little skill stuff outside of combat and role play, maybe there are some minor mobs or goblins attacking a caravan outside of town, oh man no issue, ive got a dagger and some sneak attack dice! Dude its fine. No way to dissuade me into not playing it. It sounded like fun, i like to have fun.
You want something to do in combat. Look at ways to improve your teammates, or hinder foes so that teammates have an easier time. Maybe focus on Dirty Trick.
Combat can eat a lot of time during a session, don't build a character that has nothing to do during that time.
Also, roleplaying that your a helpless little thief is actually just as good as actually being helpless. I've roleplaying multiple characters who present significantly different from their actions, but people remember how I roleplay them more than what actually happened.
A dwarf barbarian who wanted to be the greatest thief to ever live. He talked up a big game, but when the chips were down he helped a widow and her son recover their family home. He CLAIMED he was doing it for personal reasons, but he got no reward. He talked about how he was only in it for himself, but he carried an unconscious party member through three water-filled tunnels, doing heal checks at each break to stop him from dying (they were long enough the paladin would start drowning before the end).
The thing is, my fellow players remember more about how he TALKED than he acted.
You don't have to be a normal commoner. You just have to act as if you were, and if you sell it well enough, your fellow players will remember you that way.
Really, if you want to sell being "not an adventurer", instead of saying "oh look, zombies...." in a bored tone, scream it like a terrified peasant "OH LOOK!!! ZOMBIES!!!!" Be amazed at all the cool things your fellow party members can do. "Holy crap, you can literally create food and water out of nothing? My dad had to farm from sun up, to sun down to put food on our table. This is amazing."
You want something to do in combat. Look at ways to improve your teammates, or hinder foes so that teammates have an easier time. Maybe focus on Dirty Trick.
Combat can eat a lot of time during a session, don't build a character that has nothing to do during that time.
Also, roleplaying that your a helpless little thief is actually just as good as actually being helpless. I've roleplaying multiple characters who present significantly different from their actions, but people remember how I roleplay them more than what actually happened.
A dwarf barbarian who wanted to be the greatest thief to ever live. He talked up a big game, but when the chips were down he helped a widow and her son recover their family home. He CLAIMED he was doing it for personal reasons, but he got no reward. He talked about how he was only in it for himself, but he carried an unconscious party member through three water-filled tunnels, doing heal checks at each break to stop him from dying (they were long enough the paladin would start drowning before the end).
The thing is, my fellow players remember more about how he TALKED than he acted.
You don't have to be a normal commoner. You just have to act as if you were, and if you sell it well enough, your fellow players will remember you that way.
Really, if you want to sell being "not an adventurer", instead of saying "oh look, zombies...." in a bored tone, scream it like a terrified peasant "OH LOOK!!! ZOMBIES!!!!" Be amazed at all the cool things your fellow party members can do. "Holy crap, you can literally create food and water out of nothing? My dad had to farm from sun up, to sun down to put food on our table. This is amazing."
Maybe you have a point, if that were the case, what if i did decide to use point arrangement for npcs rather than flat 10ns?
Hey, Mysterious Stranger is tryin'ta help. He sounds sorta frustrated, so it might have gotten across, but he wouldn't be offering advice if he wasn't trying to help you out. No call to be rude . . .
What I'm getting from him is that he doesn't think that you'll have much fun with your average character, 'cause you won't be any good at combat or skills. If you disagree, well, only way to find out who's right is experimentation. And I wish you the best in it! Here's hoping that you have the most possible happiness per time spent gaming for the rest of your days!
Unlike Mysterious Stranger, I'm not trying to help. Getting that out of the way right now. I'm just flapping my gums. Don't expect anything useful out of me . . .
ViConstantine wrote:
Did you know, if you read the core rule book, under character creation, it says that "10" is average?
And it isn't coincidence either. Not only is it average, as in typical, it's also average in the sense that it's the mathematical mean. Well, almost. Ten isn't the average. Ten and a half is. Hence why neither ten nor eleven give you an ability score modifier; they're the baseline.
But ten is not merely the mean. It is also the median and mode. If you roll 3d6 for your stat, like le gamers of yore, ten and eleven are the most common stats rolled. There's more combinations of the three six sided cubes that add up to ten or eleven than there are combinations that add up to any other numbers.
Interesting, no? We say that 10.5 is an average roll on a 20 sided die, but it certainly isn't the most commonly rolled number. But average stats are actually more common than the other numbers.
That said, the average person, by which I here mean the most common person, the mode array, does not have three tens and three elevens for their stats. There are only 57 combinations of the dice that add up to a single ten or an eleven, out of 216 possibilities.
The odds of your thief having nothing but tens for her base stats, if she had rolled for them, would be 0.00014803588. That's fairly atypical. Which makes sense . . . have you ever met a person who's no better at anything than they are at any other thing? There's the reason the NPC array assumes variable stats, there's no reason for a doctor to have 10 INT or a carpenter to have 10 STR.
Anyway, that's just me flapping my gums, as aforementioned.
Hey, Mysterious Stranger is tryin'ta help. He sounds sorta frustrated, so it might have gotten across, but he wouldn't be offering advice if he wasn't trying to help you out. No call to be rude . . .
What I'm getting from him is that he doesn't think that you'll have much fun with your average character, 'cause you won't be any good at combat or skills. If you disagree, well, only way to find out who's right is experimentation. And I wish you the best in it! Here's hoping that you have the most possible happiness per time spent gaming for the rest of your days!
Unlike Mysterious Stranger, I'm not trying to help. Getting that out of the way right now. I'm just flapping my gums. Don't expect anything useful out of me . . .
ViConstantine wrote:
Did you know, if you read the core rule book, under character creation, it says that "10" is average?
And it isn't coincidence either. Not only is it average, as in typical, it's also average in the sense that it's the mathematical mean. Well, almost. Ten isn't the average. Ten and a half is. Hence why neither ten nor eleven give you an ability score modifier; they're the baseline.
But ten is not merely the mean. It is also the median and mode. If you roll 3d6 for your stat, like le gamers of yore, ten and eleven are the most common stats rolled. There's more combinations of the three six sided cubes that add up to ten or eleven than there are combinations that add up to any other numbers.
Interesting, no? We say that 10.5 is an average roll on a 20 sided die, but it certainly isn't the most commonly rolled number. But average stats are actually more common than the other numbers.
That said, the average person, by which I here mean the most common person, the mode array, does not have three tens and three elevens for their stats. There are only 57 combinations of the dice that add up to a single ten or an eleven, out of 216 possibilities.
The odds of your thief having nothing but tens for her base stats, if she...
I kinda get what you mean, it did seem like he was trying to help but his kind of help isnt what i was looking for. I see what he was getting at, I just dont care. And, i hate that im not tactful enough to know how to say that and it not come off as rude, i just simply have no interest in playing another standard mid max character when i think its far interesting to start with basically no bonuses from my biggest bonus providers and to instead work with my skills, class abilities and etc to help me roleplay and explore a character concept that I wouldnt ever have any interest in if I hadnt mid maxed most of my other characters in the past to hell and back. I do appreciate all input but if its anything to do with telling me "This is a bad idea" or "this is kind of dumb/unoptimal" it only makes me want to do it THAT much more. It means it goes against the norm so badly that people are actually trying to stop me from doing it and for some reason that just gets me more excited to try it and see if its fun or not! Personally I always have characters on back up so if this one dies its not an issue and I can always roll up a new one :)
So, let me try to convince you of a different way to make a normal person.
Step 1: ask the GM for permission to break the rules and do something different. Really, if nobody else knows about this its fine, but seriously the GM needs to approve of anyone that wants to rock the boat. And this idea is basically betraying the other player's expectations unless they have gotten use to you being dead weight over the years.
Step 2: Pick a race. Start as the 10 man, modified by race. Do not pick any racial modifiers. You are suppose to be normal, right?
Step 3: You are a first level commoner. Pick the 2 skills you're trained in, the 1 simple weapon you're proficient with, and buy you're starting gear. You're done!
Step 4: After the first major break the party gets (has to be at least a week long) you go through a training montage and "evolve" into an adventurer. Just like a monster gaining a class you gain the standard stat advancement of +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2. If you somehow gain levels before the training...add more levels of commoner. You really shouldn't get to have a class until you get some proper training.
If you don't like the sudden evolution kind of thing, then figure how the point array is going to be distributed and then modify all of your stats by 1 either every time you gain a level, or every 30 in-game days. Personally I prefer in-game time.
So you're basically asking how to make a character with 10's down the line?
UnRogue 2 / Wizard 1, fully online at lv 3:
Halfling Racial Traits:
Fearless
Halfling Luck
Swift as Shadows (in place of Sure-Footed, reduces sniping penalty by 10)
Skulker (in place of Weapon Familiarity, +1 Attack vs opponents denied their Dex-to-AC.)
Keen Senses
Tactic:
So, at lv 3 you have a penalty of 0 for sniping checks. You'll use this to cast Acid Splash (vs Flat-footed Touch AC) at enemies within 25 ft, dealing 1d3+1+SA dmg. You'll choose a valet familiar from your wizard level, picking up the Stealth Synergy feat to roll twice on your stealth checks.
If you'd rather be a human, then instead of Skill Focus, take Racial Heritage (Kobold) and Kobold Sniper at your first level.
At later levels, you can take the skill unlock for Stealth from the UnRogue class, allowing you to retrain Expert Sniper/Kobold Sniper.
You'll want to take the Elemental metamagic feat to prepare another Acid Splash that won't get countered by Acid Resistance/Immunity. The Magical Lineage trait allows you to treat this Elemental Acid Splash as a 0-level spell.
If you go with the Halfling, I'd consider retraining your Swift as Shadows racial trait after you've taken the Skill unlock. This will allow you to take the Creepy Doll or Human Shadow racial traits, which will allow you to use stealth more often.
Familiar:
As for what familiar to choose, you'll want a tiny or smaller familiar that has a good stealth bonus.
The Greensting Scorpion for +4 initiative is an obvious choice, but I'd also recommend the Ioun Wyrd just for its 30 ft blindsense. Blindsense is crazy good at lower levels, as it ignores every attempt at hidden enemies your GM could throw at you.
Maybe you have a point, if that were the case, what if i did decide to use point arrangement for npcs rather than flat 10ns?
The NPC stat array is literally "an average person" in the game rules.
In a completely different game system, Monster of the Week, there's a character you can play that is the "normal person". The character is built to be like playing Xander Harris from the Buffy tv show. The character is still built with special abilities that are just as powerful as everyone else, but they trigger off of him stumbling into danger and needing to be rescued.
Pathfinder doesn't have something like that though, you have to make yourself useful within the current structure, but stay true to the concept.
I'd recommend stay away from strange knowledge skills. An "average person" doesn't know much about Arcana, or Planes. Nature, History, Nobility, Local are all super within the concept though.
UMD is a touchy subject. But if you do take it, definitely roleplay "I have no idea what I'm doing, I just grab the wand and it works." But even that kind of gets into the realm of something strange about you.
It's also why I suggest Dirty Trick. There's nothing badass, or supernatural about throwing sand in the owlbear's eyes, or throwing marbles at the bad guys' feet. You can describe your character as tripping themselves, but they reach out and pants a bandit "accidentally" in the process. Even here though, it's all in how you sell it.
"I deftly use my dagger to cut his belt, causing his pants to fall."
vs
"I lunge forward with my dagger, but stumble. I reach out a hand to steady myself and accidentally grab his pants, pulling them down."
The game effect is exactly the same, but changing how you describe it makes it feel different.
Now, with using feats and skills, you're going to be doing the same things over and over again. If you take 2-3 feats to improve Dirty Trick, you'll use it once in every combat, most likely. So pick abilities that afford you opportunities to narrate them in new and interesting ways, because there are only so many times you can do the same accidental thing and it be interesting not appear to be on purpose. Hitting with sneak attack once and describing it as lucky is cool. Hitting with sneak attack for the hundredth time and describing it as lucky gets old.
Another avenue you could try is instead of being a rogue, maybe be a bard. You can still be a skill monkey and have something to do in combat. At first, just focus on inspire courage, then, as your character progresses and discovers their role in life, they can begin casting buffing spells on the others.
I also tend to agree with the others that there is probably no commoner that is just straight tens in all stats. I would just give your character 12s or 13s in some stats. That is hardly min maxing.
I planned a phantom thief myself a while ago, and thought about combat contribution just with skills. Avoron already mentioned Intimidate, I second that.
Depending on whether the group has a dedicated healer, the Heal skill can be good at lowest level: Stabilize, treat deadly wounds, fix the occasional caltrop damage / disease / poison etc.. Even if there is a cleric, they might enjoy spending their resources on something else.
Putting a rank into each Knowledge skill relevant for monster identification at level 1 doesn't hurt either - so you can tell your allies what they are up against. Depends on whether there is an Int based ally is around, you might be stepping on a wizard's toes - or agree with the player what skills to focus on with each character.
If there is no opportunity to use skills, you could fire a shortbow at lowest level - not a game winner, but it barely costs you anything either. Upgrade it to be a cruel weapon later - so you can demoralize a foe first, then add the sickened condition on top of that.
Over time I'd switch to Perception (consider One Eye Open), Use Magic Device, Craft (Master Craftsman!) and maybe Bluff for feint (but taking feats for feint slows down your general skill progression). Typical rogue skills like Disable Device or Sleight of Hand would get a few ranks, but there is no real need to focus on them.
Now his stats were mostly mundane: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 8, Wis 12, Cha 13. To really get going with skills, a high Int helps a lot - I went for 18+2. But I could see this guy start with 10 10 10 10 10 10.
If I came off a little harsh I apologize, that was not my intention. I like the concept and have played similar characters in other game system. Pathfinder is probably not the best system for this due to the way stats are handled. Other than leveling up you have no natural way to raise stats. In a point based system you can use XP to raise them.
One thing to consider is that an ordinary person put into an extraordinary situation does one of two things. They either die or they become extraordinary. The best example of this is people in a war situation. Those that survive are a lot tougher mentally and physically than those that have not been in the same situation. The experience changes them forever in ways that are hard to comprehend. Look at what happened after World War II. The people that survived it were extraordinary.
To me that is why PC have higher stats than normal. It is not that they are inherently better, but rather they usually come from unusual background. They usually either come from a privileged background, or have been through hell and back. In either case they have achieved more of their potential than an ordinary person. Since most of this happens in the backstory they start the game with above average stats.
If your character becomes an adventurer you will be put through hell compared to what an ordinary person goes through. In real life your character would become tougher and smarter if you survive. You seem to want to start your character before this happens. My suggestion would be to figure out where your stats would end up, but start them lower. Each time you level up raise them by a little until you reach where they should be. If you are using a point buy than maybe gaining 5pts per level would work.
Another idea, if you want to do more of a growth aspect into being "one of the heroes" is you could ask your GM if you could spend your stat points incrementally as you level up. Start with all 10's, then if you guys are doing a 20 pt stat block, each level you get 4 points to spend until you've gotten all 20 points.
