I've been doing a lot of thought-experimentation in preparation of playing a new character in an upcoming game, and I wanted to ask you all what your thoughts were on the interactions between the mental ability scores.
For instance, how would a character with Low INT, but High WIS and CHA act? The result of a character with all high or all low mental stats is pretty obvious to me, so let's focus on the weird ones:
-INT +WIS +CHA
+INT -WIS +CHA
+INT +WIS -CHA
or 2 low one high:
-INT -WIS +CHA
-INT +WIS -CHA
+INT -WIS -CHA
I'm also interested to know how characters who are impatient, jovial, melancholic, condescending, playful, disparaging, moody, dramatic, timid etc etc might be best represented in the framework of character creation rules.
Looking at the tables on the psfrd for ability scores gives some clues; impatience probably implies a lack of WIS, and someone who is condescending probably has a high INT but low CHA (and possibly WIS too?)... but not all of them are so obvious.
link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/
Thoughts? Ideas? Anecdotes? What quirks have your characters had? Did they grow from a thread of roleplaying or did you design your stats around them?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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There are lots of different, valid ways to roleplay any mental stat set, if that's even the style of play your group enjoys. Some players would rather simply take the mechanical penalties and get on with the game. I know how I would play some of these, but that's not meant to imply someone else is doing it "wrong."
-I +W +Ch : This guy could be bad at "book learnin'" but full of homespun wisdom and quite convivial.
+I -W +Ch : Likeable absent-minded professor type.
+I +W -Ch : Cassandra type - has insights and a lot going on upstairs, but has trouble getting people to listen to her actually good plans.
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I agree with Ryric, there are many perfectly valid ways to play your stats.
Things get even more complicated when you toss traits like Student of Philosophy into the mix. Suddenly your really intelligent low charisma character is VERY good at lying and shmoozing.
That said, I love to play really dumb characters (low int) as being really dumb but with enough awareness to not do dangerously stupid things in combat (I figure his experience outweighs his stupidity). So I get the fun of roleplaying somebody dumb but don't constantly screw up other players attempts to plan, shmooze, etc etc.
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There were some previous discussions along this line here and here if you are interested in seeing some more thoughts.
I commented on the first thread I linked here (relevant comments on mental ability score combinations quoted below). Will try and come back to this thread later to see if I have anything to add or change based on the last four years of gaming experience. In general, I agree that it's best to look at the whole character sheet when trying to figure out a character's personality - ability scores might suggest some personality traits but they are pretty broad descriptors so there are multiple ways to interpret a particular stat.
High Int, Low Wis: The absent-minded professor. The character is clever and learns and reasons easily, but may be distractable or may focus so heavily on intellectual fields they forget about mundane things. May (but does not necessarily) lack practical expertise in favour of theory. Not necessarily formally educated. Depending on Cha, others may find this behavior annoying or endearing.
High Int, High Wis: The detective. Observant and good at logical reasoning, they notice all the clues and put them together. They see both the forest and the trees.
High Int, Low Cha: The insufferable know-it-all, the bore. The character may be arrogant in displaying their intelligence, may lack confidence, or (particularly if low wis) drone on and on about their area of interest oblivious to others' disinterest. Higher Wis variants might enjoy (and be good at) picking at others' insecurities, while lower Wis variants might have general problems reading, understanding, or relating to others' emotions.
High Int, High Cha: Those who naturally become inspirational experts, master manipulators, and gentleman/lady scholars. Likely to be confident in their own intelligence without being openly arrogant.
**
High Wis, Low Int: These characters tend to be practical rather than theoretical, and prefer the big picture but get lost in details. They may have good instincts and easily intuit the truth of a situation, but are not good at conscious reasoning - thus may have difficulty justifying their decisions to others. Learn slowly, but may be patient. Might be stubborn, dislike formal logic and argument, or distrust those who "use fancy words to pull the wool over the eyes of us simple folk."
High Wis, Low Int, High Cha: As above, but their confidence and personal magnetism make them natural leaders, preferably when paired with a trusted high-int character as an advisor.
High Wis, High Int: The detective. Observant and good at logical reasoning, they notice all the clues and put them together. They see both the forest and the trees.
High Wis, Low Cha: Insightful and strong-willed but with little presence, this character might be very introverted - that is, they are mostly concerned with their inner world. Alternatively, they may be very blunt about unpleasant truths in a way that makes others uncomfortable.
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High Cha, Low Int: Not very intelligent but confident and charming enough to distract from their shortcomings. May be very good at faking expertise. May delegate the thinking to others.
High Cha, Low Wis: This character may be a little self-centered (highly confident but unaware of their surroundings or others' feelings), charmingly impulsive and whimsical, or focused on their goals to the point of disregarding realistic constraints. The last type may be seen as a hero or fool depending on the success of their enterprise.
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I am of the regard that stats and personality generally have little correlation. At the end of the day, a player will play their character how they will. That said, as someone who frequently GMs games and likes to challenge myself playing interesting characters, I have two ways I played characters of your varying mental stat arrays.
Excellent Int (19) Moderate Wis (14) Unplayable Cha (6) [I may have thought my racial choice had a Cha bonus when I was point buying. I was mistaken.] With that array, she's bookish and a seeker of knowledge. She takes in a situation in full before coming to an action. She'll expoit a weakness or bring a roof down. However, she's socially awkward. She has scars that she personally stopped caring about (she's blind) but knows everyone else sees her that way. She says the wrong things and is in most instances self-serving. She raised undead despite the cleric's disapproval because it's smarter to have a skeleton take a blow than lose a friend (something she does not have many of). The smart decision over the socially acceptable one.
On the flip side, I have Average Int (10) Poor Wis (7) High Cha (16). This character I almost play as a clown. She relies on her dextrous prowess to speak for her, and when she fumbles due to unforeseen consequences her first reaction is to get up, put her hands on her hips and declare "exactly how I intended!" However that can do attitude makes her a good leader, and she's willing put herself on the line for the sakes of those she works with. Quite often with little regard for herself.
Thoughts? Ideas? Anecdotes? What quirks have your characters had? Did they grow from a thread of roleplaying or did you design your stats around them?
I play a halfling rogue with Int 16, Wis 9 and Cha 10. He is lousy when it comes to spontaneous decisions or judging people, but given enough time to think, he comes up with elaborate problem analysis, especially strategies. He often isn't able to convince the party of his spontaneous ideas (which is for the better of the group), but they always listen to his situation analysis. The latter shows an important point about Cha: Even if it's not that great, a well-meaning observer might still take you serious.
Now that's what developed over time. To get back to another point of the original posting:
I'm also interested to know how characters who are impatient, jovial, melancholic, condescending, playful, disparaging, moody, dramatic, timid etc etc might be best represented in the framework of character creation rules.
Looking at the tables on the psfrd for ability scores gives some clues; impatience probably implies a lack of WIS, and someone who is condescending probably has a high INT but low CHA (and possibly WIS too?)... but not all of them are so obvious.
I think all of these personality traits point to either a high or low CHA. Sometimes it could be both: Condescending behaviour might leave a negative impression, but if it's a strong impression, it still correlates to high CHA. Being charismatic is not necessarily about being pleasant - think about some ugly powerful monsters in the Bestiaries.
When it comes to INT and WIS, it's really not that clear. Let's dive into condescending:
Low INT: The character is too stupid to vary the wording or the idea "I am better because X" much. It could be about something he doesn't need to be intelligent for - like his heritage (nobility, country, dragon, whatever). Despite being unable to deliver elaborate puns, he is still dismissive about others, and his fellow adventurers roll their eyes because they already know the upcoming sentences from the last five times.
High INT: He is smart, and everyone who is less smart deserves to be picked on. They could have learned better in school, right?
Low WIS: He simply doesn't notice others have their own strengths. Makes it easy to call himself the master of the "only" important discipline (like nobility).
High WIS: Now that's a bit tricky. He does notice a lot of details of other characters - both favorable and unfavorable ones. But if he dismisses the favorable ones ("yeah yeah, there are many people with muscles") and emphasizes the unfavorable ones ("oh, he is so insecure"), he can stick with the idea of his superiority.
Very interesting. I usually have my character's stats inform me in some way of how my character will act. if I'm repeating what's been stated above I apologize, below is just my own interpretation.
-INT +WIS +CHA: Oddly enough I've played this character. I had a druid she was beautiful and wise but also incredibly ditsy. If someone corrected her that she was getting something wrong she wouldn't be sour about it, she would just laugh and apologize. She would generally get the jist of things right, she would just frequently be wrong when it came to the specific details.
+INT -WIS +CHA: Heh, I've played this before too. My character was the classic tinker gnome. Very friendly and interested in all things magic and machinery. This was an earlier version of D&D where you needed identify in order to determine what a magic item was. His opposition school was divination, so he would figure out what things were via Use Magic Device.
+INT +WIS -CHA: I haven't played this, but this looks like a "know-it-all". Basically that extremely annoying person that is constantly telling you that you're wrong and unfortunately they are right most of the time.
or 2 low one high:
-INT -WIS +CHA: This character would be friendly and easy going. But have absolutely no idea about anything. They would probably be very physical and likeable, just not introspective.
-INT +WIS -CHA: This strikes me as the hermit type charcter. They don't say much and keep mostly to themselves. If you ask them anything they'll probably just say "I don't know! ask someone else".
+INT -WIS -CHA: This strikes me as an ivory tower type character. They are brilliant, but it feels like they are constantly talking down to you and unless you have something interesting to say you're not worth their time.
I think in general I tend to equate Int to how knowledgeable a character is and how interested they are in learning new things. Wis I equate to how well a character notices their surroundings and how well they recognize the consequences that their actions might have outside of their own immediate gain/loss. Cha I relate to how likable a character is, how gracious they are and how much personal etiquette they are aware of.
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Right, sorry for the minor necro but I did say I'd come back and share more thoughts:
-INT +WIS +CHA: These characters have a natural talent for reading situations and both reading and influencing people. Combining confidence with strong will means that they are particularly suited for leadership. Unfortunately, while they probably have good instincts their analytical reasoning abilities are poor and they don't have a good memory for facts or details. While not necessarily uneducated, they are slow to pick up new skills and particularly struggle with academic subjects. Ideally, this character will accept their areas of weakness and find one or more high-Int advisors to keep them informed. It's also possible that the character may devalue logic and book learning in favour of "simple truths." Could be practical and charmingly folksy, or alternatively a big-picture visionary who delegates working out the details to others. May be stubborn. May be good at faking a higher level of intelligence.
+INT -WIS +CHA: Likely to be a celebrity intellectual / inspirational expert, in demand as a speaker. Likely to be confident in their own intelligence; if they are arrogant they are probably more subtle about it so as not to alienate others. May be a little self-centered and have difficulty reading people unless they specifically invest in Sense Motive, in which case they are likely to be master manipulators. Likely distractable, charmingly impulsive, or whimsical. May focus so heavily on intellectual fields they forget about mundane things, or have a tendency to get so caught up in a big idea that they disregard realistic constraints. Area of expertise will likely provide a lot of variation in character. May lack practical expertise in favour of theory. Alternatively they could pick up a wide variety of skills with little apparent effort. Not necessarily formally educated.
+INT +WIS -CHA: A character with strong perceptive, analytical, and insightful talents who unfortunately has a really hard time getting people to listen to them - as ryric said, the "Cassandra." There's a few possible reasons for this. LordKailas mentioned the "insufferable know-it-all" type, where the character is obnoxious or condescending and thus alienates people. This type may enjoy and be good at picking at others' insecurities (training in Intimidate or possibly Bluff would be appropriate here) or simply be very blunt about unpleasant truths. Another possibility is that the character is timid and lacks confidence - they may see themselves as only knowing enough to know how much they don't know. Alternatively, they may have a hard time translating their abstract thought processes into something meaningful to other people. In this case, they likely bore or confuse others. They may be introverted, mostly concerned with their inner world.
-INT -WIS +CHA: Has presence and confidence but otherwise very little mental capacity. Depending on personality/skills, they could consciously try to appear smarter and wiser than they are (Bluff), be nice enough that people like them despite their foolishness (Diplomacy) or possibly be a bully that people listen to or else, at least as long as he's around (Intimidate). May delegate the thinking to others as a figurehead or “team mascot.” Might be overly optimistic, grandiose, or vulnerable to manipulation.
-INT +WIS -CHA: Intuitive, perceptive, strong-willed, but no analytical ability or personal presence, and slow to learn new things. Could easily be hermit-like, whether because they actively reject human company or are too shy to engage with people. If they do interact with others they may tend to be unpleasantly blunt or have difficulty communicating their viewpoints. Could have a spiritual bent or at least a similar “big picture” viewpoint (“all living things must experience pain sometimes”). Alternatively, may have a very down-to-earth manner and focus largely on practical matters. Might be stubborn, and may actively dislike formal logic and argument.
+INT -WIS -CHA: Strong analytical capabilities, memory, and ability to learn but lacking insight, willpower, and personal presence. Most likely stat array to be withdrawn from the outside world, being deficient in not just influencing others but also in perceiving their environment. If they do attempt to interact socially they may have difficulty relating to others' emotions and are particularly likely to be boring, obliviously droning on about their interests. Also likely to suffer from self-doubt or indecision since they can easily understand the complexity of a situation but can't trust their “gut reaction.” Alternatively they may be arrogant, trusting their analytical ability to provide the “right” answer, but prone to mis-judging situations. Skill investment could make up for weaknesses in specific areas. For example with training in Diplomacy the character could have some ability to make reasoned arguments that others find convincing despite the character's general lack of charisma.
I'm also interested to know how characters who are impatient, jovial, melancholic, condescending, playful, disparaging, moody, dramatic, timid etc etc might be best represented in the framework of character creation rules.
To me, timidity suggests low Cha, impatience suggests low Wis, and being condescending is somewhat more likely with a High Int / Low Cha combination. But that's not set in stone, and I don't think the other traits relate to ability scores well at all. At most, I might say for example that a jovial character probably has a higher Diplomacy skill than Intimidate skill, a playful character probably has a higher Bluff than Intimidate and possibly a rank in Perform (comedy or acting), and a dramatic character might have a rank in Perform(oratory or acting).
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I actually see a low Wisdom, Low Charisma, High Intelligence character as a candidate for a Character with Autism, particularly if Wis or Charisma is cripplingly low.
Now before the internet rages at me let me first say, I do have ASD, I reflect a lot of that type of statline.
High Int, with Autism often a person is a savant, if they are high functioning they mostly have incredible levels of processing and analytics, often an Autistic individual is able to learn a given subject very quickly, however with that incredible ability comes with a couple of major downsides. In my own case I have a hard time applying a lot of what I can learn, further I have a hard time judging the effects of my own actions. This could be very reflective of a low wisdom.
Then we have Charisma, it is a known fact that Autistic people tend toward having a hard time in social situations, that part of the brain doesn't quite work right, I personally have an incredibly hard time around other humans. I'm bad at reading them, and I can't read a situation for the life of me, often I come off as harsh, cold, uncaring, even emotionless and apathetic, the point is I am almost instantly unlikable in person and heaven forbid I have to try and explain an idea or concept to someone, I honestly just can't.
I think much faster than I talk and often what I think and what I say are two different things. Trying to covey an idea of any kind, is hard at best, impossible at worst.
In that sense you can look at stat as +INT, -WIS, -CHA as a person with high functioning autism, they are absurdly bright, but applying what they know, and even trying to work around people and with them is a constant challenge (I'm not even going to get into the sensory overload, that is a dark place with many triggers, like perfume, perfume is evil)
I actually see a low Wisdom, Low Charisma, High Intelligence character as a candidate for a Character with Autism, particularly if Wis or Charisma is cripplingly low.
With the special ability to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom or Charisma for skill checks or will saves, for a heavy stress price (like the influence system of the Medium class, how strong the stress influences you). Only possible for skills you already have a few ranks. Can lead into a hefty breakdown.
I have a fetchling rogue with higher Wis and lower Int and Cha.
She's abrasive, has a cruel streak, isn't too bright, but has street smarts, is cautious on the border of paranoia, and goes with her gut.
And my High Cha gnome sorcerer is quick to make friends but lets his companions do the thinking for him.
I know quite a few +Int -Wis -Cha people IRL, most of them have Aspergers. This is NOT an insult. Remember, they are my friends. I'm being objective here.
They tend to be quite intelligent with a real knack for logic and math and rationalizing anything out. Very detail oriented and often meticulous. When it comes to common sense or understanding emotions in others though... patience, understanding, or apathy is required to not wind up offended.
They just don't "get" people, and tend to think up overly-complicated situations that occasionally fail to take morality into account. Said solutions would work, though.
Great material for researchers and the like. Bet they'd be awesome mages and alchemists! There might just be a trail of bodies and destroyed landscapes behind them... that they'd be oblivious to.
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I actually see a low Wisdom, Low Charisma, High Intelligence character as a candidate for a Character with Autism, particularly if Wis or Charisma is cripplingly low.
Now before the internet rages at me let me first say, I do have ASD, I reflect a lot of that type of statline.
High Int, with Autism often a person is a savant, if they are high functioning they mostly have incredible levels of processing and analytics, often an Autistic individual is able to learn a given subject very quickly, however with that incredible ability comes with a couple of major downsides. In my own case I have a hard time applying a lot of what I can learn, further I have a hard time judging the effects of my own actions. This could be very reflective of a low wisdom.
Then we have Charisma, it is a known fact that Autistic people tend toward having a hard time in social situations, that part of the brain doesn't quite work right, I personally have an incredibly hard time around other humans. I'm bad at reading them, and I can't read a situation for the life of me, often I come off as harsh, cold, uncaring, even emotionless and apathetic, the point is I am almost instantly unlikable in person and heaven forbid I have to try and explain an idea or concept to someone, I honestly just can't.
I think much faster than I talk and often what I think and what I say are two different things. Trying to covey an idea of any kind, is hard at best, impossible at worst.In that sense you can look at stat as +INT, -WIS, -CHA as a person with high functioning autism, they are absurdly bright, but applying what they know, and even trying to work around people and with them is a constant challenge (I'm not even going to get into the sensory overload, that is a dark place with many triggers, like perfume, perfume is evil)
Thanks for sharing your experience. I was wondering if that stat array might be a good representation for a character with Autism, but don't have the personal experience to make that assessment.
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Thanks for sharing your experience. I was wondering if that stat array might be a good representation for a character with Autism, but don't have the personal experience to make that assessment.
It's actually surprising how many people try to play a character with a mental condition and just flat out get it wrong.
I actually did have to ask one player at my old school club to either clean up his act with a character or play a different character because they were incapable of playing a character they described as being autistic without blatantly playing off of every stereotype that is just offensive, including the one about autistic people being unable to function in high sensory environments like stadiums, or whenever a wizard casts a fireball. Or literally every time a large crowd gathers (All of which are actually not fun situations for me personally). That player basically had his character flip out and attack anything on sight and generally act like what you would expect an ill trained dog to act. It was offensive and done in poor taste, didn't help that he played that character as a Barbarian so we somehow had a Barbarian with high int who acted like an animal, I'm getting tilted just thinking about it again.Anyway, moral of the story, stick to High Functioning Autistic Spectrum Disorder, it's not generally cool to play characters who are in fact non functional, and it is an affront tho people who actually may be non functional.
For high Int/ low cha I would say Temperance Brennan comes to mind.