
HWalsh |
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So Paizo...
Let us talk Paladins...
So Gwyn of Nybor is my baby - My level 10 PFS Paladin.
Gwyn is a heck of a lot of fun to play. He's a "Sponge Tank" meaning that his AC is low, his HP is moderate, but his recovery is stupid high.
He follows the feat path of:
Human: Fey Foundling
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Greater Mercy
5th: Weapon Focus: Longsword (Iomedae!)
7th: Extra LoH
9th: Ultimate Mercy
Started with a 16 Charisma, raised to 18 at 4 & 8, bumped to 20 through a headband.
Buffered with Bracers of the Merciful Knight this non-shield using heavily armored juggernaugt gets hit by everything and just heals through it.
With an effective LoH as a level 14 Paladin, Greater Mercy means he usually self heals as a swift action for 8d6+16 damage. There is also Hero's Defiance as a backup.
He's rocking 14 (7+5+2) LoH's per day.
This avg 44 healing per is enough to keep up with incoming damage and his longsword's two handed power attacks hurt plenty.
Gwyn is an aggressive tank. He's not some high AC shield user who hits like tissue paper. He's an offensive threat. Hitting for 1d8+17 damage per swing or 1d8+27 while Smiting.
His AC is low, so everything hits him, which is how he likes it. The more things beating on him the less his allies are getting smacked around. He is dealing out, usually, as good as he gets.
Saves? Gwyn has saves. He's got great saves! Even with his 10 Dex and 8 wisdom his lowest save is a +10, his highest is a +15.
He's got it all. Self healing, good damage, he can heal allies, channel positive in a pinch, and has a few nice spells when the need arises.
I don't want that to change in PF2. I want this kind of playstyle to remain viable. Can you at least promise me that?
I'm worried as it seems you're pushing Pallies to be armor Masters and... That isn't really cool.

Wicked Woodpecker of the West |

not really, I play relatively low with magic items both for PC and NPC, and I trat NPC bit harsher - if they get critical failure on Fortitude Save - they are dead...
for a PC - you'd have to get three 1 in row to insta-die.
And DC is growing per 1 for every 10 points over Con, so it's not that high.
But I prefered to have a risk element that would make players more cautious about fighting even... well low level threats.

HWalsh |
not really, I play relatively low with magic items both for PC and NPC, and I trat NPC bit harsher - if they get critical failure on Fortitude Save - they are dead...
for a PC - you'd have to get three 1 in row to insta-die.
And DC is growing per 1 for every 10 points over Con, so it's not that high.
But I prefered to have a risk element that would make players more cautious about fighting even... well low level threats.
Even at level 1 Gwyn was throwing out 1d8+9 avg 14 which is higher than most con scores. By level 4 it was 1d8+14 with a +1 weapon avg 19.
I think you made things too lethal and made healing even less useful.

Wicked Woodpecker of the West |

Possible. But somehow still at level 8-9 mine PC's did not died so far.
Only few moments when some guys died were enemies touch-channeled by our Jergalite priest, including frost giant boss who died after getting 48 direct damage and failing critically. Quite fine action.
Then while our cleric is our healer, he's not so good in that, our paladin is fight not heal specialised, and our oracle do not heal at all.
I was playing with idea, of making wound separate and spells centered on separate wounds rather than overall abstract health.
But while spells would go easy with that... channels need some rethinking.

ChibiNyan |

So was his best stat STR? With a 16 CHA opening you could get 16 STR, 18 if kidna ignored everything else, but it seems he has CON. Sounds like a good candidate for DIEHARD!
Don't see why this can't be replicated by just getting the correct arrays and picking every single LoH feat out there, which I hope there's lots in PF2. And, of course, ignoring shield.

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+Charisma to all saves is way, way too good in the new system. What we'll likely see is something else to represent the Paladin's irrepressible nature, which I'd be happy with.
I'm actually not sure this is necessarily entirely true. One thing they could do would be to have Paladins use Charisma instead of other Ability bonuses on all Saves. That'd be a serious boost without messing with the system math too much.

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The Dandy Lion wrote:+Charisma to all saves is way, way too good in the new system. What we'll likely see is something else to represent the Paladin's irrepressible nature, which I'd be happy with.I'm actually not sure this is necessarily entirely true. One thing they could do would be to have Paladins use Charisma instead of other Ability bonuses on all Saves. That'd be a serious boost without messing with the system math too much.
I had been thinking about this, admittedly! Would be a reasonable step down.

Fuzzypaws |

The Dandy Lion wrote:+Charisma to all saves is way, way too good in the new system. What we'll likely see is something else to represent the Paladin's irrepressible nature, which I'd be happy with.I'm actually not sure this is necessarily entirely true. One thing they could do would be to have Paladins use Charisma instead of other Ability bonuses on all Saves. That'd be a serious boost without messing with the system math too much.
That actually would be a reasonable version of Divine Grace. It's still very good, but not outright broken like the old version would be under PF2's math.