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A discussion came up as a result of the crafting rules regarding UPBs. Originally we assumed that UPBs were reusable and recyclable. Make something with an amount of UPBs = to the credit cost and recycle found or old items back down into UPBs = to 10% of the value of the item. This all seemed to line up with the perception that they were these wonderfully unique very useful wonder items and that function really seemed to click but upon further inspection we see the rules we misread read as 10% of parts to create a similar item.
Anyway this all lead to the discussion of where do UPBs come from? if there is no in game mechanic to create them are they a result of some uber corporate endeavor thats basically printing money? do they just show up in neat little packages from Triune? We love the idea of UPBs and the idea of them as the underpinnings of the credit economy but there really isn't much about how they are made and who makes them or how they are introduced into the economy or how that is controlled.
In addition, After looking at the rules again as written and comparing to our previous assumptions I realized that allowing players to recycle items down into UPBs = to 10% of the value actually changes nothing. Either your converting credits to UPBs = to 90% of the value then salvaging items for that last 10% or salvaging items down into 10% of the value and saving them up to build stuff. In terms of hard mechanics the are essentially the same as the same amount of economic units are expended either way. In the end we decided to roll with our original assumption as it gave our players a theater of the mind reason for UPBs to stay in the system and reinforced their wonder material nature. For us it felt right and as it changed nothing balance wise was a win.
Regardless it spawned a interesting discussion. How do you handle UPBs and what are your thoughts on their origins and creation?
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I tend to think of UPB's as tiny capsules made up of nanites, transistors, and raw materials (mostly plastics/polymers) for manufacturing goods. They can translate/combine themselves via programming and other chemical reactions into almost anything. Once done, though (to keep them from becoming grey goo), they basically lock themselves into a final form. They make some things the way that plants or animals do (chemical reactions with air, water, and other provided raw materials).
The recycling thing isn't that you're getting raw UPB's back out of the item, but that some of the parts are usable in more than one (similar) item. So you can skip having UPBs to make those parts.
I'm also of the opinion that, because the credit is tied to the value of a UPB, a number of government and corporate entities have dropped the production cost of them down to where they're almost at break even. If you wanted to produce them yourself, you could, but unless you have the full supply chain of a mega-corp or planetary government, it's going to cost you more than one credit per UPB to do so.
I kind of look at them like System Shock 2 kiosks, where you turn nanite packs into guns and stuff. At least when the kiosks build the things. When you recycle something you're not really getting UPBs back, you're getting credit back for them, Sorta in the sense of you're not getting the UPB package, but you are getting the materials that would otherwise go into a UPB, just less efficiently packaged.
Right I understand that the crafting rules state that your getting parts not UPBs. we originally had read that as UPBs but after getting into crafting realized we had read it wrong. However after inspection of the rules and the potential impact of allowing items to be recycled into UPBs = 10% of the value I saw that it would have no impact what so ever other than RP and we all really liked the idea of these universal nanite like objects that could be repurposed to some degree. The idea of them is very sci-fi and really adds flavor to the setting I think. We just found it interesting to ponder just how they are introduced into the economy. Their manufacture would have to be closely controlled. To be feasible they would have to be at least cost effective enough to break even but at that point the entity making them would need some reason other than humanitarian reasons to do so and even if they were cost effective enough to be break even at a certain point if the company making them flooded the market enough they could potentially devalue them and destabilize the economy.
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I don't think their manufacture would need to be tightly controlled, at least not in the long term, because the sell price is essentially fixed. Once you base your currency on them, there's going to be a 'race to the bottom' as various people, corporations, and state actors try to make them as cheaply as possible. This would just be because of natural market forces and everyone acting in their own self interest.
In the end, I bet there are a number of government bodies and non-government institutions that have worked out how to manufacture them at some cost between .95-1.05 credits each (possibly much tighter). If they go much lower than that, it devalues the actual currency and therefore raises the manufacturing cost. If it ends up costing them more than that, it raises the value of the currency and therefore lowers manufacturing costs. Even within that band, the most profitable ones would 'dump' them on the market and lose out long term (by devaluing their own product) and the least profitable would scale back thereby raising the value of the currency and ultimately lowering their cost. It's a self-correcting system in this way.
The fact that the UPB's are so extremely useful and also destroyed when used, means there is constant demand for the product, so there's no reason not to make them, even if it costs you more than the 1 credit they're officially worth. You can always try to manipulate the market (if you're big enough) to drive up demand and then sell when it would be profitable. But there are enough large entities competing with one another capable of manufacturing them that no one entity can manipulate the market enough to crash it, at least not outside of a small local economy (like a single remote moon or planet).
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Just because PCs can't build UPBs, doesn't mean that megacorps can't, just like the profession rules for your adventurer's side job don't take into account the vast range of pay plans that most likely exist in the Pact Worlds.
Being a murder hoboadventurer simulator, the rules are based around people who fight and explore a lot. Presumably NPCs with boring jobs have different rules and different scales, and probably don't need to have a +10 to their BAB to be high-paid professionals at the top of their fields.
So, given that level of abstraction, I'm pretty okay with the UPB economy being a little fuzzy.
I'm totally stealing that. That's amazing.
I’d just like to point out that, since UPBs can be used to make field rations and MREs, our group has become convinced that there are extreme vegitsrians who exclucivly eat UPB made food so they don’t kill ANY living creature to eat. We call them UPBarians.
Lol that is brilliant!
Side note for discussions sake, if they are so cheap to make that the company making them just breaks even, which we have pretty much agreed it as necessary to be feasible as economic units what is their motivation to make them?
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I’d just like to point out that, since UPBs can be used to make field rations and MREs, our group has become convinced that there are extreme vegitsrians who exclucivly eat UPB made food so they don’t kill ANY living creature to eat. We call them UPBarians.Lol that is brilliant!
Side note for discussions sake, if they are so cheap to make that the company making them just breaks even, which we have pretty much agreed it as necessary to be feasible as economic units what is their motivation to make them?
The central bank responsible for managing the Credit's value owns and has a monopoly on the UPB factories, it's part of managing the money supply. (It costs more than a $0.01 for the US Mint to make a penny or $.05 to make a nickel, but pennies and nickels exist.)
Vesk/Azlanti smugglers bring in substitute UPBs as a form of economic warfare.
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Side note for discussions sake, if they are so cheap to make that the company making them just breaks even, which we have pretty much agreed it as necessary to be feasible as economic units what is their motivation to make them?
Well, I said 'close to break even'. There would be times when making them would be profitable. Even if it's only a 1% profit per unit, if you're making kajillions of them, it may still be worth it on profit alone (since the sale price is guaranteed, by law, essentially).
But, even if it's purely break even, there's still numerous reasons to do such a thing.
1. It provides influence into the working of the government. Being a major maker/distributor of what is essentially currency gives you both a carrot and a stick to negotiate with when dealing with governments.
2. It allows you to manipulate the value of currency, especially in smaller markets. If you're the main manufacturer of a good on a particular planet, and a third party comes in, you can dump UPB on the local market to devalue the currency, potentially running your competitor out of the market.
3. It has value in diplomacy, because it's a commodity good that can be traded to non-credit using markets.
4. It's useful on its own, since almost all manufacturing uses UPBs, making them for your own supply chain is going to be necessary anyway, so you're encouraged to make them yourself (even at a small loss) to keep from being dependent on an outside supplier for your higher process goods. At a megacorp or government institution level, this is the best reason to make them, and you'd sell the excess you don't need for your own goods on the open market.
How about because it's cool?
Don't forget that UPBs are an extreme bulk good. Even if your manufacturing cost is 0.9999999cr per UPB, that still leads to huge profits if you manufacture them by the trillion.
That's true of total costs, not manufacturing costs. Sales, distribution, etc. will get tacked on.
Not necessarily. Remember, this isn't just a finished product that you'd sell like an iPhone. It's also a commodity (like gold), and currency (like dollar bills), and a manufacturing component (like transistors) for making other products.
You can literally manufacture them at that price and directly deposit them in your own bank account. Heck, you can even be your own bank if you're big enough. You can also trade them at full value for finished goods like currency. You can also use them in your own factories to produce more complex finished goods (and pocket the manufacturing savings on finished goods) to either sell or supply your own navy or whatever.
I’d just like to point out that, since UPBs can be used to make field rations and MREs, our group has become convinced that there are extreme vegetarians who exclucivly eat UPB made food so they don’t kill ANY living creature to eat. We call them UPBarians.
Actually I would think that NO real meat is made out of living things any more. UPB's are infinitely easier to store and can make pretty much anything in 4 hours.
Sure you will have your high end restaurants offering 'real meat' but with food printers and UPB's I bet anyone can enjoy 'meat' in the future.
There are no philosophical vegans with food replicators. :-)
I'm wondering if UPBs aren't made by Abadorcorp. Doubling as a temple to the god of economics means people would naturally trust you to set the "base price" for the universal economy.
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I'm of the opinion that every manufacturer of any good that is bigger than your local mom and pop store is also a UPB manufacturer, just for all the benefits that provides.
I’d just like to point out that, since UPBs can be used to make field rations and MREs, our group has become convinced that there are extreme vegitsrians who exclucivly eat UPB made food so they don’t kill ANY living creature to eat. We call them UPBarians.Lol that is brilliant!
Side note for discussions sake, if they are so cheap to make that the company making them just breaks even, which we have pretty much agreed it as necessary to be feasible as economic units what is their motivation to make them?
The central bank responsible for managing the Credit's value owns and has a monopoly on the UPB factories, it's part of managing the money supply. (It costs more than a $0.01 for the US Mint to make a penny or $.05 to make a nickel, but pennies and nickels exist.)
Vesk/Azlanti smugglers bring in substitute UPBs as a form of economic warfare.
Another way at looking at it, the universal basic polymer can be copied easily and not managed by the Central Bank. However they are worth one credit each and is used as a form of currency that can't be tracked. The Central Bank (AbadarCorp?) doesn't control UPBs. Something else does.
I tend to think of UPB's as tiny capsules made up of nanites, transistors, and raw materials (mostly plastics/polymers) for manufacturing goods. They can translate/combine themselves via programming and other chemical reactions into almost anything. Once done, though (to keep them from becoming grey goo), they basically lock themselves into a final form. They make some things the way that plants or animals do (chemical reactions with air, water, and other provided raw materials).
I tend to think about them as Mass Effect's Omnigel.
It's actually how we call them in game, omnigel. Along with Solid Data, 2 of the more important civilization advances that the Trave... err... Absalom station gave to the Pact Worlds.
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The bulk of upb production is probably by mega corporations with their expenses heavily government subsidised - the true cost of manufacturing a upb is probably slightly more than a credit, but if you make them on a large scale without paying for electricity because the government waived the fee so your factory would be built on their planet to create jobs for their people, then they become profitable.
AbadarCorp again?
90% of what you sell goes to the government.
Your taxes supply UPBs to the universe.