| JohnnyWhoa |
I'm making my first Witch, and I've absolutely fallen in love with the new Wyrmwitch archetype (seen here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo-witch-a rchetypes/wyrmwitch-witch-archetype/ ). I love the idea of a bonded hoard of treasure and/or junk items (dumpster witch!), particularly considering how much easier it makes learning new spells. But I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the archetype or any suggestions they might offer?
I'm looking into rolling either a buffing/debuffing witch, a cursing witch and/or a "chance" witch (a la Ill Omen and its ilk), and I'm having some trouble choosing a patron. Your thoughts, community?
Also, what compatible archetypes would you recommend to go along with this? I like a lot of the flavor of Tatterdemalion, but it doesn't seem terribly useful. I also find it hilarious that Synergist is TECHNICALLY compatible with this archetype (even though it clearly wouldn't do anything).
Thanks!
| JohnnyWhoa |
I looked at Chromatic and liked the list, but depending on the role played by a patron in the story I don't know if I want to be bound to an evil dragon. I just got through doing that as a kineticist and that royally screwed over my party (in, to be fair, a thematically and plot-based awesome kind of way).
I've heard Invoker highly regarded a few times but it doesn't seem that useful to me, not enough to cost 3 hexes anyway. The ability to reduce a target's SR is amazing of course and the various enhancement bonuses to physical scores are nice, but I don't know how much use I'd get out of them.
What about for battlefield control, and good recommendations for this archetype's patron/other mixed archetypes there?
| avr |
The only painful hex to lose of those 3 is the first one though. By 8th level you have 3 basic hexes, by 16th you have 3 advanced hexes. That's enough if you're not getting heavily into hexes.
Outer dragons are the obvious patron for BFC with imperial second best at that until higher levels. The other patrons seem to be about buffing (metallic) and sneaky stuff (esoteric). Or sucky blasters in the case of primal dragons.
The other archetypes aren't compatible because they change the familiar or the patron spells, or they just aren't very good. With the synergist counting as that when you try to mix it with wyrmwitch. I suppose if you spend 2-3 feats getting a familiar you could make it work.
| JohnnyWhoa |
I'm leaning toward a half-elf with Eldritch Heritage, so I suppose I could make Synergist work with it by taking a familiar through that ability. It's definitely something to consider, at least.
You seem pretty familiar (HAH) with Witches and their archetypes. If I wasn't taking Wyrmwitch, what would you recommend? It's always good to keep options open and this campaign probably won't begin for several months yet anyway.
| avr |
Some of that expertise comes from having Archives of Nethys available. Still, if you're looking for a luck or chance based witch then you might consider ley line witch (especially if you prefer spontaneous casting) or maybe mirror witch, or of course the base, unarchetyped witch. It's not actually worse than its archetypes, unlike some classes.
For some reason there's no patron directly related to luck or chance. Deception, fate or space might be worth looking at though.
| JohnnyWhoa |
Archives of Nethys has definitely been a great resource, I have to agree.
Mirror Witch is something I definitely considered, but for a class with such a bad fortitude save, Ley Line scared me right off. Staggered for minutes per spell level is a scary thought.
Reading over Wyrm Witch, I've noticed a few things that can possibly make or break it for me, and one thing in particular that is absolutely game breakingly good if it works as written.
The first relates to the Witch's hoard being able to cast a spell. Does this work like a wizard's arcane bond, enabling the Witch to cast a free spell once per day without expending a slot? Or does it still expend a slot, but allows basically one "spontaneous" cast?
The other thing I noticed is that no where in the archetype does it actually say that any ability replaces or alters patrons or patron spells, unlike other archetypes that lock witches into certain patrons. Instead, it just says that the witch selects one of the draconic patrons under an ability by a different name (Draconic Patronage). As written, does that imply the witch still has a choice of a standard patron as well? If so, that is an incredibly powerful choice.
| JohnnyWhoa |
I'm sure it's likely a RAW vs RAI thing, but I can imagine a case for both.
RAW would imply you get both patrons, which only adds additional spells known. Powerful and helpful to be sure, but the archetype does have some drawbacks. The witch's hoard is basically an arcane bond you can't enchant, have to pay for and have to lug around with you everywhere, and is pretty easy to steal from, depending on your GM. The extra spells known could be a bonus to make up for that, as you do lose the versatility of a familiar for it as well.
The RAI argument would be as you just said, and the one I've been reading it as to this point. It just takes the place of the Witch's normal patron and is not written as clearly or accurately as it could be. It may need some errata to follow and correct it.
I expect it's likely the latter, for the same reasons you did, but it might be something to fix on the Wyrm Witch's entry.
Alright, my last question for the Witch is actually something that applies to all Witches, that being how their patron spells work. As written, it says that "At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar." What is the difference between a Witch's spells known and spells stored by their familiar? I was under the impression that they were one in the same. Is that the case, or do they work similar to the Shaman's Spirit Magic or something?
| Derklord |
The other thing I noticed is that no where in the archetype does it actually say that any ability replaces or alters patrons or patron spells, unlike other archetypes that lock witches into certain patrons. Instead, it just says that the witch selects one of the draconic patrons under an ability by a different name (Draconic Patronage). As written, does that imply the witch still has a choice of a standard patron as well? If so, that is an incredibly powerful choice.
Legacy of Dragons is one of the worst written books in Paizo history (can't call it worst edited because it doesn't seem to be (content) edited at all!). Seriously, the Fighter archetype say it replaces the bonus feats at 3rd and 5th level - apparently, not a single person who plays this game looked over what the writers handed in!
Yes, the Wyrmwith ability should say it alters the Patron Spells ability, but do you honestly believe the archetype grants a second patron without explicitly saying so?
The witch's hoard is basically an arcane bond you can't enchant, have to pay for and have to lug around with you everywhere, and is pretty easy to steal from, depending on your GM.
You realize that you can literally sleep on your money purse, right? If your GM constantly steals your money and/or expensive material components, I think you're having far worse problems than some Witch ability!
Seriously, you don't need to sleep on an actual pile of coins. You can get a sufficiently expensive diamond (which you can buy and sell it at the same cost) and "store" it in an orifice of your choice during the day. You could probably also wear underwear interwoven with mithral or something. It also doesn't actually have to be your money - you could totally use your party members' stuff.
None of these things should be necessary unless your GM is a jerk or you're playing in a gritty hardcore game.
A hoard is harder to steal than a familiar is to kill, the penalties for loosing it are way less, and it's significantly easier to replace. In addition, the bonded object ability is stronger then what a (normal) familiar grants. All that plus the easier learning of spells.
All in all, Wyrmwitch’s Hoard is an upgrade (especially since it's not really hard to get a familiar from a different source).
What is the difference between a Witch's spells known and spells stored by their familiar?
None, they're one and the same.
| JohnnyWhoa |
Yes, the Wyrmwith ability should say it alters the Patron Spells ability, but do you honestly believe the archetype grants a second patron without explicitly saying so?
Hell no. As fun as that would be, it's way too strong without giving anything up, as we pointed out. I haven't read Legacy of Dragons, so I wasn't aware it was full of mistakes like that one, so I had to question it.
None, they're one and the same.
Is there any given reason why they're both pointed out in the Witch's text, then? My understanding was indeed that they were one in the same but it feels weird that they're both mentioned. Another editing/printing irregularity?
| Dracoknight |
The familiar is more or less the Witchs spellbook. They are both mentioned as the familiar "store" the spells that the witch "knows". Its a clunky way of writing it, but thats Paizo in a nutshell, they could really do with learning how to "keyword" gamemechanics instead of reintroducing/reinventing it every single time.
| JohnnyWhoa |
Well, with Pathfinder 2.0 around the corner, maybe we'll see an improvement on that front. Thanks for the feedback and advice everyone!
Based on what I've looked into and picked up on from here, I'm looking at a Samsaran Wyrmwitch (no secondary archetype), picking up a few wizard, bard and summoner spells using Mystic Past Life, and the Outer Dragon Patron. Should be a fun character, and I'm looking forward to playing it.
| Derklord |
I haven't read Legacy of Dragons, so I wasn't aware it was full of mistakes like that one, so I had to question it.
You can check out the Fighter archetype here (the d20pfsrd.com version is adjusted), and for extra fun, read the special section of this feat.
Is there any given reason why they're both pointed out in the Witch's text, then? My understanding was indeed that they were one in the same but it feels weird that they're both mentioned. Another editing/printing irregularity?
The "spells known" stuff for preprared casters is only in the class description because WoTC apparently though otherwise player's don't understand the difference between prepared and spontaneous casters. Thus they added it to the Wizard's 3.5 description, which was copied into the PF version, and then used as a blueprint for all prepared arcane casters.
On a side note, these two posts offer reason to hope that the issue will improve in PF2.
Basically, it's utterly irrelevant what spells a Witch "knows", as there is no class feature that cares about that. What's important are the spells stored in the familiar. Or in this case in your hoard, which means they must be somehow stored in your mind, as there's nothing preventing you from sleeping on a totally different hoard every night... yeah, it's a bit weird. When in doubt, ask your GM not to give you grief over what's more flavor than anything else.
Oh, and because I forgot to respond to it in my last post:
I looked at Chromatic and liked the list
You realize that seven of the nine spells are already on the Witch list, and thus these patron slots are utterly wasted, right?
| JohnnyWhoa |
WOW that is a poorly written archetype, you weren't kidding. It's easy to correct for players and DMs, of course, but still, wow.
And yeah, the Wyrmwitch's hoard is a bit ambiguous. I feel like it probably needed some harder structure to it, but I'm happy as it is. I just love the flavor of it, and I don't expect my DM to grief me on it. He's cool.
And finally... Yeah, that's the OTHER reason I passed on the Chromatic list. It's nice that it gives an easy way to learn those spells but in an archetype that lets me go wizard hunting for power, I don't need it!
| Derklord |
WOW that is a poorly written archetype, you weren't kidding. It's easy to correct for players and DMs, of course, but still, wow.
In a way, this might be the single hardest to fix archetype in the game because while it's easy to make it work, it is absolutely impossible to deduct what the original intend was. Should the archetype replace the 2nd/4th level bonus feats, or the 4th/6th level bonus feats?* Should the archetype get the abilities at those level, or actually at 3rd/5th level (yes, that's possible, cf. Motunui Arsenal Chaplain)?
*) That does make quite a difference - if want Cornugon Smash and/or Shatter Defenses ASAP, replacing the 6th level feat is rather painful, if you want to play something that takes a few feats to work, loosing the 2nd level feat would hurt more.
Also, have I mentioned that the archetype grants Arcane Strike without a caster level, so the feats doesn't progress as written?
I just love the flavor of [Wyrmwitch's hoard]
I wholeheartedly agree - as I've said before, I consider Wyrmwitch to be the coolest archetype in all of Pathfinder. It's possible to make the archetype work despite the GM not being supportive, but that would probably take most of the fun out of it.
| JohnnyWhoa |
No worries on that here - my GM's cool. The whole group I play with likes to favor fun and flavor over just being a dick to our players and each other. Which probably shouldn't be as rare as it is, but I've read these message boards, so I'll count myself lucky.
While you're absolutely right about a Wyrmwitch being able to just sleep on her purse, I'm going to play it for flavor. Start off literally sleeping on gold, spend some excess down the line on junk, maybe ultimately just buy an extraordinarily expensive and large pillow, empty it and fill it with gold. Bean bag chair bond. Either that or just hoard useless items, steal a dumpster (clean it with prestidigitation (traits!)) and fill it with goodies. And then live in it.
| Derklord |
No worries on that here - my GM's cool. The whole group I play with likes to favor fun and flavor over just being a dick to our players and each other. Which probably shouldn't be as rare as it is, but I've read these message boards, so I'll count myself lucky.
I think that's actually the norm, you just never know. For instance, I made those suggestions just in case your GM was 'uncool' (or you were playing a more gritty game). It's also nice to know if the campaign puts you into a situation where you don't have access to your usual stuff.
On a note, mystic past life Samsaran is about the most powerful race option in the game, and Witch is a very strong class, so be sure not to overdo it (especially with the spell selection - I'd honestly advice against selectign Summoner spells), lest you tempt your GM to actually do something regarding your hoard.My idea for the archetype was to "fuel" the hoard with stuff collected from defeated enemies - you know, all magpie like - stuffing it into a Bag of Holding for transportation. Then, when the others unfold their bedrolls, you pour out your bag and make a bed out of the randum stuff you've, well, hoarded.
| JohnnyWhoa |
I didn't think Mystic Past Life was terribly overpowered when I first saw it. Abused, it certainly could be, but kept in check, not so much. The guy who will be DMing that game agreed but one of the other players, who has a lot more DMing experience, thought it was crazy OP. I talked to him about it and still didn't think it was quite so bad...
Until finding out about the Ring of Spell Knowledge, and realizing this trait is basically six of those with no level cap or item slot. That's admittedly pretty absurd.
My DM was still comfortable with it, but I wasn't. So I've switched building her into a Tiefling... which worked out pretty well, when I picked Fiendish Heritage, rolled a 46 and got another +2 to Intelligence. Level 1, 22 Intelligence score. Hell yes.
Thanks again for everyone weighing in on this. My choices have changed a bit since my original build for her but this has helped me choose my Wyrm Witch patron quite nicely. Thanks again!
| Derklord |
To elaborate a bit, what makes Mystic Past Life so powerful is that it allows the character to ignore some of the normally hardest to overcome limitations in the game. For instance, a Witch's spell list is significantly weaker than a Wizard's, to balance the super powerful Hex class feature.
Now, six spells aren't enough to make your list on par with a Wizard's, but if your grant some key spells the Witch's list is missing (Invisibility, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Permanency, Contingency, Time Stop, and Wish), the remaining gap grows pretty small. You're still missing the "you shall not pass" battlefield controll spells (pits and walls), and a bunch of other utility stuff, but most days, you won't notice much difference. For campaigns ending at mid levels, you could also use the Bard list to grab spells like Silence, Good Hope, Freedom of Movement, and Bard's Escape in addition to Haste and the Invisibilities.
Specially for the Wyrmwitch is also relevant that you can basically ignore it's main downside. Normally, the archetype's weakness is that you can't grab standout spells like Haste or Invisibility - well, know you can!
Probably even more powerful (depending on when your campaign ends) is using the Summoner's spell list to get spells like Haste, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Fire*, Overland Flight, (Greater) Teleport, Maze, and Dominate Monster at reduced spell levels, allowing you to cast those spells earlier than any other class in the game.
*) Normally a mediocre spell, the relatively cheap Lesser Metamagic Rod of Dazing turns it into a powerhouse.
| JohnnyWhoa |
Be that as it may, I still didn't want to break anything with it, so if I need the spells, I'll get them through wands and scrolls and such, rather than risk breaking the game. I'm pretty happy with the Tiefling I rolled up for her (Fiendish Heritage turned out interesting - in addition to that +2 INT I mentioned I also got a mammalian tail, so that'll be a fun design choice) and now all that's left to do is fine tune the details and wait for the game to begin!
My wife will be playing in this game too, and she's a wonderfully talented artist. The two of us love to brainstorm stories and scenarios, so we've been talking about our characters for this game. My birthday was yesterday, so she decided to design my Witch for me! Since you all helped me with her setup, I decided to share it here, largely because I'm still geeking out over it. Check it out!
| JohnnyWhoa |
Sorry for the necropost, but I have a new question about the archetype. This game has begun and my witch is INCREDIBLY fun to play. We've defeated our first wizard and she took his spellbook for use with the hoard. I understand that she has to sleep on it for a number of days per spell level to learn a spell from it, per the Witch's Hoard description:
Also, a witch can add a spell to his hoard from a wizard’s spellbook, if the spellbook is kept in the hoard and the spell is on the witch’s class spell list. The wyrmwitch must sleep on the spellbook in his hoard for a number of days equal to the spell’s level, after which he must succeed at a Spellcraft check (DC = 15 + spell level) to learn the spell.
My question is, how many days does she have to sleep on it to learn all of its spells? The book she got has two level 2 spells she can learn and one level 1 spell. Can she sleep on it for two days to learn them all? Or does she have to sleep for five days (two for the first spell, two for the second, one for the level 1)?
I presume the latter, but again, the wording of Legacy of Dragons was vague. I appreciate any advice on this!