Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Living Grimoire


Advice


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Found this pretty awesome concept for a Strange Aeons game. My question is, if I want to make it effective, how do I do it? It seems to me it gives up most its power for a gimmick. How does it match up at later levels? Is there an obvious multiclass I want to explore for it? Or, could I keep the concept but make it another class, for which the clearest options would be magus or paladin?

Any insight welcome, but please no spoilers for Strange Aeons.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't have anything specific at the moment, but being an INT based divine caster potentially opens up a very different set of options for a build. Maybe did wizard levels and go for a very unMAD Mystic Theurge?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

BÖMP.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.

This might stray too far from what you're looking for but I have an idea/build for this that I've been looking for a good game for... Start with 5 levels of wizard, and worship Nethys (I like taking deific obedience at 3rd but that's completely optional). For your bonus feat (at 5th) take the faith magic discovery (you pick a 1st level domain spell from your god and can cast it from a 2nd level slot; most importantly, it still counts as divine so it qualifies you for mystic theurge). At 6th take a level of living grimoire and then from 7th on mystic theurge. Your divine casting is definitely secondary in this build but for only one lost wizard casting level you eventually get up to 4th level divine spells and all your casting is Int based.

Again, the feel of that is going to be quite a bit different than a full inquisitor but (IMO) it makes for a great priest of Nethys.


VMC Magus works apart from the spellstrike; there's about one relevant spell on both lists, stricken heart. The arcane pool and magus arcana on a similar class with an int focus are good though.

The inquisitor abilities it keeps other than casting are teamwork feats/solo tactics, stern gaze and some cruft. You can make something out of those but it does look weaker than a standard inquisitor.

IMO it looks most similar to a cleric or warpriest with extra skills. I'd probably start with a cleric if trying to duplicate it, it's easier to make a cleric more knowledable than a warpriest.


I always thought the archetype came across as very gimmicky... really cant seee what place it has


The nerfs the archetype received really took a lot of power away from the archetype and I'm not sure there's a reason to play it on its own merits anymore. Losing flex-bane and judgements for sacred weapon is a fairly meh trade, though obviously it gets better if on any given day you fight the same types of enemies.

The most awkward thing about it though is actually leveraging your grimoire as a weapon. It's a single weapon that gets some bonuses, but you can't THF with it because it's light, but you don't have anything in your class to build on TWF either and it's not a very good weapon chassis either. Really the only thing you've got going for you here is an untyped +1 to attack rolls. Though hey, at low levels that's like having the Justice inquisition running permanently! Which is kinda nice because until level 4 your sacred weapon feature doesn't do anything.

So you actually might be best off trying to play a caster and skill focused inquisitor. A 20 int human Living Grimoire is getting 12 skill points per level before FCB. Grab Conversion for int to all social checks or something silly like that. Grab all the utility spells you can. The book itself becomes a supplement if you need to smack something rather than your core damage.

Course, the Inquisitor is inevitably going to be much worse at playing caster than an actual caster, but it's an idea. Maybe not a good one though.


Yeah, the fact that it counts as a light weapon is really a dealbreaker here. If only you could "swashbuckle" a light mace.


doc roc wrote:
I always thought the archetype came across as very gimmicky... really cant seee what place it has

I was very excited for this archetype until I saw that it gives up Bane. That is too much of a sacrifice for the small amount of cool you get in return.


Well you sort of get bane back by adding it to your sacred weapon options.

It's just much much worse because it ties bane rounds to your judgement replacement too and once you pick your bane you can't change it until the next day.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not a lot you can do with it, but:

Ancestral Weapon:

Source People of the River pg. 7
Category: Region
Requirement: Numeria
You have inherited a sacred tribal weapon wielded by your forebears since the days before the Rain of Stars, and you were trained in its use from a young age. Select either cold iron or silver. You begin play with a masterwork melee weapon made of the material of your choice. You must be prof icient with this weapon, and its combined cost cannot exceed 500 gp. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with weapons made of the selected material.
Might let you get a masterwork silver book that counts as cold iron

You can take advantage of your Intelligence stat with
Amateur Investigator -> Studied Combatant
and
Kirin Style -> Kirin Strike

A Samsaran can exploit the Blessed Script ability by adding crazy spells to your holy book from another class.

And the following archetypes can also be stacked with Living Grimoire to trade away the rest of your standard inquisitor abilities:
Preacher (replace solo tactics/teamwork feats) to get a few attack re-rolls.

Royal Accuser (replace stern gaze, detect alignment, solo tactics, teamwork feats) gets a 1/2 level bonus to perception and some other neat abilities.

Ravener Hunter: (replace domain, domain, alter spells* so you need DM approval since Living Grimoire also alters spells in a compatible manner) nets you two revelation from one of: ancestor, battle, flame, heavens, life, lunar, nature, solar, stone, time, volcano, waves, wind, or wood.


Wonderful, thank you! That is very helpful.


I have been playing a Living Grimoire in Strange Aeons, and while its definitely weaker than base inquisitor, its still workable. So far I've been taking a secondary combat role, mostly focused on providing support in melee rather than primarily doing damage.

I have been able to get a lot of leverage from taking Bludgeoner and Enforcer and using them to debuff opponents, which helps because the primary damage dealers in the party have lower than average AC's. I also use blistering invective to a decent effect, certainly inflicting shaken and getting a bit of damage out there. This isn't special to the Living Grimoire, but it still helps keep up with the problems of a generally lower combat ability.

One idea I had (but didn't go with) was taking 3 levels of Unchained Thug so that I could sicken and shaken most enemies fairly well, and it would lend itself to a dex-based build fairly well. Maybe a 4th level wouldn't be bad either for Debilitating Injury and the extra round of sicken from Brutal Beating.

Out of combat, I've been doing pretty stellar considering I took the knowledge domain and have invested in most knowledge skills. It certainly helps to have 6+Int skills and a high intelligence though. See the Strange Aeons Players Guide if you want an idea of which skills are more useful than others though, I don't want to give too much away.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just for the ignert me, what is a 'living grimoire'?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bwang wrote:
Just for the ignert me, what is a 'living grimoire'?

An archetype for Inquisitor.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
pulseoptional wrote:
Bwang wrote:
Just for the ignert me, what is a 'living grimoire'?
An archetype for Inquisitor.

Their schtick is that they study the scripture of their deity to prepare spells rather than casting spontaneously. They also bludgeon their foes to death with said scripture. Literally.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

on the bane and then the secred weapon thing
correct me if I'm wrong or if they've changed it sincre I looked at this clas but..

Doesn't the sacred weapon, and therefore living grimore, have a stipulation that when you chose an enchantment its that for the whole day or something along those lines?
so you can bane
but.. you can't change the bane type each time you use it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes, as explained in Swoosh's posts near the top.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
They also bludgeon their foes to death with said scripture. Literally.

Basically, you walk around telling your enemies "the words of <insert god> will punish you!", and then you whack them with your holy book!

Which makes it the second coolest archetype in the game.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Which archetype is cooler?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wyrmwitch from Legacy of Dragons - instead of having a familiar, you have to sleep on your own personal dragon hoard!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have been crunching the numbers on this for ages now. It... just doesn't add up. You get the book, which, as a light weapon, doesn't synchronize with much of anything. You will end up as a front liner due to the book, but you have d8 hp and medium armors and no other defensive abilities. There is nothing in the books that help light maces more than any other weapon. You can't really multiclass, because you lose out on the book advancement. And so on.

All in all, about the only thing you are good at is intimidate.

I am afraid my verdict will have to be nope.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It seems to me that it's meant to be a primary caster with the book as a backup option. The Inquisitor has a very interesting and varied spell list, but as a spontaneous caster doesn't usually have access to most of it. The Living Grimoire could theoretically have every inquisitor spell. And being int based with 6+Int skills per level, means that you will be more knowledgeable than anyone except the investigator.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sissyl wrote:
You will end up as a front liner due to the book, but you have d8 hp and medium armors and no other defensive abilities.

Then don't be a front liner. Enchant the book with sharding and distance. Now you're a ranged attacker. I few feats and you're 'throwing the book' at them with the best of them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My fiance is playing one for Strange Aeons. She doesn't know much about the game, but she enjoyed the concept of throwing books at people. We got her the Magic Domain for the Hand of the Acolyte ability, and so far she loves it, aside from the fact it's a caster (she finds keeping track of spells too tiresome).

From an optimization standpoint, I find the archetype useful for additional flexibility in spell casting and skill points. Losing Judgement feels pretty harsh, but having a weapon that gets stronger and spell flexibility is a pretty fair trade off. Bane I would say is the worst to lose, but getting it back in a "pseudo" fashion is hardly a problem when it can be enchanted with other abilities as well.

I think what I disliked most was the loss of monster lore. Losing stern gaze would have made more sense thematically, as an intelligence based character loses out on the knowledge of enemies, but retains his eyes of scrutiny...

I think the trade offs are ultimately fair and the archetype opens up more avenues of play.


the archetype makes me think of the priest like guys in power armor in warhammer 40k. the ones that carry those huge books.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Makes me think of the preacher Karl Honig in Johnny Mnemonic and I made a 16th level LivGrim to emulate that as an android.


Thinking of making a living grimoire for my upcoming hell's rebels game. Think it would be pretty interesting. I don't understand however what is the benefit of the blessed script ability? Just an extra spell? So it doesn't require somatic components when you activate it but it still glows like the light spell. So weird that you lose bane for that ability.


I guess blessed script's an equivalent to Spell Mastery and a domain spell slot in one? But yes a definite step down from bane, greater bane, 2nd & 3rd judgement all of which which it replaces.


Got any good suggestions for inquisitions and domains for the living grimoire? I feel like Banishment would be pretty nice in Hell's rebels. Persistence sounds nice as well.


Since it removes so much from the original class, the best thing to do here might be to not consider it an inquisitor. Maybe not as strong, but a powerful skill monkey as an INT based caster with 6 points a level. There is a rather strong weapon you can enchant. The spell like abilities aren't as good as bane, but they can be handy and are a good contingency to have. It seems like a pretty fun class to play with good versatility. You can support in melee, be a flankmate, help protect squishies, and buff others. Not to mention you have domains with some neat abilities. I'm personally not very impressed with solo tactics and teamwork feats, but you could just switch that out with the Preacher Archetype. With the right traits a great party face.


I feel like the Orator feat might be pretty sick as well. You would save even more skill points you would normally use on intimidate/bluff/diplo.


Woodoodoo wrote:
I feel like the Orator feat might be pretty sick as well. You would save even more skill points you would normally use on intimidate/bluff/diplo.

Would that work with stern gaze? I do know you won't be able to make requests of people through this feat unfortunately.


Ah damn. I forgot the archetype of all things doesn't replace stern gaze. Heresy inquisition then! Although that could be solved with the student of philosophy trait.


Woodoodoo wrote:
Got any good suggestions for inquisitions and domains for the living grimoire? I feel like Banishment would be pretty nice in Hell's rebels. Persistence sounds nice as well.

With the switch to Int, Conversion/Heresy/Reformation inquisitions lets you swap in Int for Cha skills so you can expand your skill-monkeying.

Possession Inquisition/Void domain give bonuses to will saves.

Travel domain gives bonuses to speed, and the Trade Subdomain gives bonuses to Bluff, Diplomacy, or Sense Motive checks.

Artifice domain gives at will mending.

Magic domain lets you throw your book.

Protection domain gives out resistance bonuses and the Fortifications Subdomain lets you "floating blockade of stone, granting the ally the benefits of partial cover".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
Magic domain lets you throw your book.

Literally the best option.


Incidentally, Sin Eater stacks with Grimoire. I don't know how useful this is since it replaces teh domain, but it is there.


MageHunter wrote:
Incidentally, Sin Eater stacks with Grimoire. I don't know how useful this is since it replaces teh domain, but it is there.

Preacher stacks too and I like it better than Sin Eater. It gives some nice combat abilities and can get rid of teamwork feats if you don't like them.


graystone wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
Incidentally, Sin Eater stacks with Grimoire. I don't know how useful this is since it replaces teh domain, but it is there.
Preacher stacks too and I like it better than Sin Eater. It gives some nice combat abilities and can get rid of teamwork feats if you don't like them.

If you REALLY wanted to you could stack all three of them.


MageHunter wrote:
graystone wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
Incidentally, Sin Eater stacks with Grimoire. I don't know how useful this is since it replaces teh domain, but it is there.
Preacher stacks too and I like it better than Sin Eater. It gives some nice combat abilities and can get rid of teamwork feats if you don't like them.
If you REALLY wanted to you could stack all three of them.

I'm iffy on taking both. Sin eater is cool but so is a domain and an extra uses of the preacher abilities at 6th. Taking both would allow for a more melee focuses player with self healing and dodging/hitting abilities.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

If you're going with this archetype, I'd suggest to be wary of your biggest potential foe: Tome Eater Occultists.


If we compare the Living Grimoire vs Spirit Dancer medium, who is better in combat and more utility? What is the opinion of the community?


Honestly I think they are both pretty meh. But they both sound fun to play so I would encourage anyone to try them! My lvl2 PFS Living grimoire will see play soon enough!

Additionally on the living grimoire should i be going dex based instead of str since I cant two-hand the book?


Woodoodoo wrote:

Honestly I think they are both pretty meh. But they both sound fun to play so I would encourage anyone to try them! My lvl2 PFS Living grimoire will see play soon enough!

Additionally on the living grimoire should i be going dex based instead of str since I cant two-hand the book?

I'd do it but I like dex based more than str.

Going dex based will make you less MAD but you'll want to pick up Agile on your book as soon as possible to get Dex to damage on it.

Going str will make you put points in dex too so you'll have lower in both. The benefit would be qualifying for both dex and str feats.

PS: Two divine fighting techniques use the light mace so they might be of interest. Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard lets you use a tankard (or mug) as a light mace and you can drink a potion from the mug/dirty trick in place of an attack. Not directly helping the book but all feats used for book also work with mug.

Asmodeus’s Mandate makes threatening a critical hit/confirming a critical hit with a light mace cause a sickened effect.


It would have been cool to somehow incorporate elven battle style into it but sadly it requires specific weapons. And kirin style is just so "meh". I realize the magic domain is the coolest but I do feel Herecy inquisition is probably the best choice. But again we are trying to make the coolest living grimoire not the best one :D


Hmm now I am thinking about a TWF book/tankard Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean who attacks/dirty tricks people.
I think a one level fighter dip would be cool as well so you can skip taking a feat and instead drop shield proficiency.


its random.
but I'm highly amused about the idea of using that new tower shield style line (gives various bonuses)
and then thwomping with a book as well or shooting it with that acolyte hand.

Though.. it would be amazing if i couldj ust have a giant tower shield book.


I feel like making him a Sylph since It would be fun to make something different for PFS.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Living Grimoire All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.