Multiple "Aid Another" actions making skill checks virtually pointless...

[Lanathar]

So I have a concern that if I have a party in an Adventure path that decide to all use Aid on certain skills then it invalidated the challenge

A chief one is diplomacy. Everyone can attempt a DC10 aid check with seemingly no negative consequences for failure.

So if you have the Face of the party roll (say with +7 at level 1) and then three of four people aiding - that could be a bonus of +13 / +15

At that level it would be impossible to completely fail a check with that bonus (as in triggering a hostile response in an unfriendly person) and very unlikely that a success would not be forthcoming

Is this just the way it is? Or should there be caps on Aid or penalties for the DC10 being failed? Because right now it is a no brainer for everyone to try and help

Thanks

[Ultrace]

d20PFSRD wrote:

The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

I would definitely make restrictions here. There's only so many people that can speak up in a diplomatic area without it getting suspicious or jumbled. A wingman? Sure. But 3 or 4 people? No.

[Claxon]

The problem is not so much with the aid another system, but with diplomacy DCs, and this applies to social skills in general.

It makes sense that several people could try to work together to convince someone (although it would also be reasonable to place a limit on the number, no hiring 20 experts to follow you around to complete certain skill checks). But if the DCs are high enough, it doesn't matter if 3 people can grant you a +6 to the skill check, you still can't succeed on some things. An example of which would be perception checks to notice invisible creatures, with a DC of 40 + stealth for a non-moving creature low level characters aren't going to make it, even with a +6 or a +8.

The problem is that DCs for diplomacy are:
1) Flat to accomplish certain task
2) Have no scaling for enemies challenge rating or
3) Have no scaling for types of requests ---it kind of does but a lot of it is left to GM discretion which can result in hard feelings between players and GMs, which is another separate problem

Honestly diplomacy is just a flatly broken skill in the first place due to the design.

[LordKailas]

The aid another rules state that the GM can heavily restrict it's use.

If the normal diplomacy rules seem underwhelming then make it an opposed check instead of against a DC. This would also mean that the target of the diplomacy check could also have an ally or 3 who can also make an aid another check in order to resist the PC's check.

alternatively, you could adopt something like the social combat cards in order to allow everyone to participate while at the same time making it more than just a single die roll.

[Omnius]

The orc horde is coming.

Gather all the village children.

Have all of them use aid another on one child's intimidate check to scare off the orcs.

[GM Rednal]

For scenarios like this, I suggest using the Skill Challenge Handbook. Aside from making it easier to create and run complex skill-based situations (when one roll isn't appropriate), it's built with the expectation of people aiding each other. It even comes with a table detailing multiple difficulties (from 'minimal but actual investment in the skill' to 'the whole party should use Aid Another to give you a realistic chance of success') at each level.

[Turambar]

First, remember this is a Roleplaying Game. If players say "I make a diplomacy check," just say no. Players need to interact, in character, with the NPCs. Generally, one of the players will dominate the conversation, and that's who YOU, the GM, get to tell to roll diplomacy. If another PC is helpful you could grant him the ability to aid, but in general, just say no.

Just because there is an elf bard at the table doesn't mean they will be making all the checks. Sometimes the orc barbarian inserts her opinion and spoils the whole thing. That means the GM can impose a penalty to diplomacy or simply deny the PCs a chance to peacefully resolve the situation.

[Mark Hoover 330]

It depends on what the PCs are trying to do here. Gather Info with Diplomacy - sure, 4 people could work their way around a tavern as a unit, engaging tables of patrons in conversation to learn rumors and such. If you're looking to push a certain person to do a thing though, consider what the PCs are actually asking.

First they've got to convince this person to be willing to talk things over with them. This translates mechanically to getting the NPC to Indifferent at least, if not more positively inclined. Depending on the NPC's starting attitude, this may require up to a DC 25 + check.

Especially when they're level 1, these PCs are likely to be outsiders. Consider: if the party is a bunch of untested strangers unknown to a local NPC in a settlement that isn't so positively inclined towards mercenary adventurers, starting the NPC's attitude off at Unfriendly isn't unwarranted. If they're a merchant or public figure, they might have a +1 from their Cha. It would take the entire party acting in concert with the "face" and ALSO require about an 8 or higher on a D20 unless they're using magic. Not impossible, but not necessarily a "gimmie" either.

Then there's the request. Once they get the NPC to at least an Indifferent attitude towards them, the PCs must then actually ASK that person for whatever the party wanted from them in the first place. Need directions to the nearest tavern? No prob; that just needs a DC 15 (Indifferent attitude) +1 (NPC Cha mod) -5 (for "Simple Directions" in Diplomacy) for a total DC of 11.

However, if the PCs need genuine help, like the revelation of a dire secret or something, the DCs tend to escalate.

If the party asks something of the NPC, consider what happens to that NPC if they get found out. For example, what if you're running Hollow's Last Hope and the PCs are in Falcon's Hollow. They need info from an NPC in the town but said info would put them in the crosshairs of The Lumber Consortium and put them in considerable danger.

Suddenly the DC for the NPC's help is 15 +1, +10 ("Give dangerous aid" under Diplomacy) for a DC of 26. This same group with their +13 would need a 13+ on a D20 without magic!

The thing with Diplomacy checks is that many GMs, myself included, forget how hard they can actually get. Taking someone Indifferent towards the party and convincing them to stick their necks out for the party starts at a DC 20 at least, and just rises from there.

Finally, as others have said above, the GM should always assert their own judgment in these situations. Not just in setting DCs or in assessing how many folks can Aid Another either.

Look at your Settlement stat block or at the particular NPC. Note any religious or racial prejudices the NPC might have based on their own alignment, the Qualities of the settlement, etc. From that you can always levy a -2 Circumstance bonus on the Diplomacy check.

The OP also said there were no negative consequences and this is somewhat true. You can retry Gather Info checks w/no penalty as much as you'd like; you can only attempt to Influence Attitude of one NPC 1/day so this has a built in consequence. Additional Requests past the initial one they ask of the NPC add +5 to all DCs, so pestering the NPC for lots of little favors every day adds up until you get a no.

Here again though, the GM can use their own judgment. Remember that Diplomacy is persuasive debate as well as polite conversation. If the PCs are seen and known to engage in this activity, they might attract those who disagree and refuse to be swayed by their arguments. They might also reveal something of themselves and their missions to the enemy.

Example: 4 PCs are trying to get Laurel the Herbalist in Falcon's Hollow to provide them with 4 doses of Scent Block so they can travel through the forest unmolested by tatzlwyrms. These are normally reserved only for the lumberjacks and even then sold at a heavy premium. The 'jacks have to go into debt for the stuff and thus its one more tool in Boss Kreed's kit to keep folks in line.

Laurel begins at Indifferent and "losing" four vials of Scent Block would put her at odds with Boss Kreed. She's not sure that this will automatically land her in jail or worse, but she'll definitely be in hot water. The initial DC starts at 25.

The PCs all contribute through the main roll and Aid Another bonuses. What ensues is a minute or so of cajoling, logical debate, the wisdom of the gods and the blunt words of a fighter all mingling to convince Laurel to let the party purchase the vials. In the end they roll only an 11, 1 shy of the success they needed.

For the party they're like "ok, well... that stinks" and take off. However for Laurel, her day goes from bad to worse. See as the PCs skulk off dejected, a passer-by runs and tells "Pay Day" Teedum that Laurel's trying to cut deals with outsiders. He talks to Boss Kreed and then he pays a visit to Laurel's shop as she's closing for the day.

When the party returns from gathering what they needed in the woods, they go to Laurel's the next morning. The poor woman looks frightened half to death. Many of her supplies have been damaged. She's able to complete the work needed to end the adventure with what the party's gathered, but she now has a -2 Circumstance penalty against the PCs in future Diplomacy checks.

Of course, if the PCs were to deal with Boss Kreed and try to end his intimidation tactics, well, that's a DIFFERENT adventure...

[Diego Rossi]

There is a little caveat in the aid another rules that is easily forgotten:

PRD wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.

For sure that limit Aid another in all the skills that where having the skill is needed to achieve any result. But, in my eyes, it stop people from helping in any skill with a target number that they are unable to reach rolling a nat 20.

The dwarf with 6 charisma can't help if the DC is 20.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Omnius wrote:

The orc horde is coming.

Gather all the village children.

Have all of them use aid another on one child's intimidate check to scare off the orcs.

Intimidate wrote:

You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds.

Congradulations!

One (1) orc has the shaken condition for the next 20 minutes.

Of course, both he and his 200 friends will proceed to attack the gathered children anyways, but you can be proud of the children's attempt.

[Omnius]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Congradulations!

One (1) orc has the shaken condition for the next 20 minutes.

Of course, both he and his 200 friends will proceed to attack the gathered children anyways, but you can be proud of the children's attempt.

Most skills have more than one use.

Intimidate also wrote:

You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.

Success: If successful, the opponent will:

…give you information you desire
…take actions that do not endanger it
…offer other limited assistance
After the intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities.

Fail: If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.

Action Using Intimidate to change an opponent’s attitude requires 1 minute of conversation.

Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed.

Modifiers
Size You gain a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks if you are larger than your target, and a –4 penalty on Intimidate checks if you are smaller than your target.
Feats If you have the Persuasive feat, you gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate skill checks. If you have 10 or more ranks in Intimidate, the bonus increases to +4.
Race A half-orc gets a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

So, intimidate the orc leader into backing off.

As an added bonus, once the intimidation wear off, the orc likes you more, as they are treated as friendly, regardless of the fact they were hostile before. Peace through intimidation!

[Cavall]

Reread that friendly part.

And don't forget to read the "un" section

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Action: Using Intimidate to change an opponent's attitude requires 1 minute of conversation. Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.

How many of your children speak orc?

How many are alive after a round in speaking distance from the orcs?

[Lanathar]

Diego Rossi wrote:

There is a little caveat in the aid another rules that is easily forgotten:

PRD wrote:

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.

For sure that limit Aid another in all the skills that where having the skill is needed to achieve any result. But, in my eyes, it stop people from helping in any skill with a target number that they are unable to reach rolling a nat 20.

The dwarf with 6 charisma can't help if the DC is 20.

This was my potential reading as well. You can roll the DC10 aid if it would be possible for you to succeed on your own.

It seems like a reasonable interpretation and might encourage more of a spread of skills

Would this also mean an Aid Other can only used by someone who could hit the enemy? Or is this example irrelevant because everyone can hit on a natural 20?

I quite like the other example mentioned above of letting the group talk - main talker rolls the check and others who speak can roll aid. This works because say diplomacy was going on in a language that the "face" did not speak but the wizard did...it would not make sense for the face to make the main roll

Thanks everyone - my thoughts have been refocused and so I am less concerned with this now!