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In India, they did have bucklers that strap on...
Otherwise, I totally agree. I want a big variety of shields. The fact that 5e only has one shield type was a big letdown for me.
I really don't care about real world counterparts and nomeclatures. Historically though, the small shield that you strap to your arm and that is exactly like the D&D/Pathfinder buckler is the targe. So if they make the buckler something else as suggested as long as there is a targe that would be 2E equivalent to 1E buckler, I'm happy. However that were to happen I'm not sure there would be sufficient in-game differences between bucklers and light shields. So I guess that if anything on that direction were to happen maybe the best course of action would be to just change nomenclature. Like so:
Bucklers as we know them are renamed Targes.
Light Shields become Bucklers.
Heavy Shields become just Shields.
Tower Shields stay Tower Shields.
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Except when a targe is 2 ft across...
Seriously, I'm not especially concenrned with what they get called. I just want some variety.
Buckler should be somehting like "only give AC against melee, not ranged" and have special bonuses for shield bashing.
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Bucklers dont strap on the arm. Scottish Targes don't Only strap on the arm- they have a handle that is held in the hand.
There is no type of shield in existence that ONLY straps on your arm- it is physically impossible for it to remain in place, and not roll under your arm under its own weight, threby facing the ground.
I have handled both antique historical targes and bucklers, and I have fought with both reproduction bucklers and targes. THey must be held. You can in fact do lots of things with the hand holding a buckler or targe, in fact often a highlander fought with his dirk held in the hand also holding the handle of his targe. There are techniques in historical fighting manuals where you seize your opponents sword blade or handle with your buckler hand. Also it wasnt too hard to hold a dagger in your buckler hand.
Bucklers did not switch with targes in the game books, though that seems to make sense. In fact, when Gygax wrote Unearthed Arcana, he screwed up. He saw a buckler in an 80s antique auction/museum catalogue, with a typically 80s ignorant description and grainy, terrible picture, and wrote that it buckles on your arm. <insert gameshow buzzer noise here> That is incorrect, Gary (still love you, Wee Jas bless and keep you). We are actually not even sure noy why it was called a buckler- speculation is that it buckles on your belt. Usually it was shown carried by a strap that looped over the top of your sword scabbard, just under the opening where your sword goes. Some later Italian bucklers had a hook on th front, which hooked nicely over your belt, and you cound wear the buckler on your belt with the handle facing out.
But yes, bucklers are VERY nice for punching. I almost got disqualified by punching just a little too hard with one 3 weeks ago in a HEMA tournament. Bucklers are just as good for ranged attacks- they are just held out from the body and pointed at your opponent/ his weapon.
The "bucklers slap away/ turn aside" myth is one that that has been perpetuated with Renaissance Fair swordfighters, and is completely wrong. Bucklers are held out static, and moved to intercept weapons, but they are hard enough to just get in the way of attacks coming at you at FULL speed (I fight full speed and full power with them regularly), let alone time it perfectly to slap away an incoming attack. THis action actually moves the buckler exactly where you DON'T want it- you want it between you and your opponent/ your opponent's weapon; trying to slap away an incoming attack, even if you are lucky enough to hit it (you will probably miss)and not get clobbered by his weapon, throws your buckler off to either side for a second, and that second will cost your life in a swordfight. The myth is perpetuated by Ren Fair fighters who do not fight at full speed with intent to actually hit each other. Google Marozzo, MS I33, Lignitzer for proof.
Also, just for fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFmLuRAlfA
the most fun is at 2:45.
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I really don't care about real world counterparts and nomeclatures. Historically though, the small shield that you strap to your arm and that is exactly like the D&D/Pathfinder buckler is the targe. So if they make the buckler something else as suggested as long as there is a targe that would be 2E equivalent to 1E buckler, I'm happy. However that were to happen I'm not sure there would be sufficient in-game differences between bucklers and light shields. So I guess that if anything on that direction were to happen maybe the best course of action would be to just change nomenclature. Like so:
Bucklers as we know them are renamed Targes.
Light Shields become Bucklers.
Heavy Shields become just Shields.
Tower Shields stay Tower Shields.
Targes DO strap on the arm, but also have a handle that is held. there is no physically possible way to have a shield ONLY strp to your arm and not roll to the under side of your arm, thereby rendering it useless and a shield. Shields are actively wielded, and must be held in the hand. You CAN hold other things on your shield hand pretty easily though, Scotts frequently held dirks in their targe hand, and the manuals talked about grabbing sword blades in your buckler hand. See my post above for full description.
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In India, they did have bucklers that strap on...
Otherwise, I totally agree. I want a big variety of shields. The fact that 5e only has one shield type was a big letdown for me.
Ive seen Indian bucklers, and if they only strap on, I'd be very interested in seeing this. THe ubiquitous European buckler that the Pathfinder version is based on (originally derived from 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana/ a Dragon Magazine article written by Gygax in the early 80's) is held in the hand. No straps, no "buckling". Held in the center, like a viking shield, or a tiny hobbit door with a handle.
Ive seen Indian bucklers, and if they only strap on, I'd be very interested in seeing this. THe ubiquitous European buckler that the Pathfinder version is based on (originally derived from 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana/ a Dragon Magazine article written by Gygax in the early 80's) is held in the hand. No straps, no "buckling". Held in the center, like a viking shield, or a tiny hobbit door with a handle.In India, they did have bucklers that strap on...
Otherwise, I totally agree. I want a big variety of shields. The fact that 5e only has one shield type was a big letdown for me.
I really need to get better at saving the random stuff I find online. I remember finding it, and thinking "well I'll be, I guess they're real", but unfortunately I don't remember where it was... If I find it again anytime soon, I'll gladly post a link.
I'd like to mention, though, bucklers aren't necessarily held out static in front of you either. That's just one method of use. (Though I really like it) I'll just say I.33 and leave it at that.
So just thinking of what I would like to see for shields. I could see expanding this list, but it's a basic idea
1) all shields apply 1/2 their bonus to your AC while equipped. Taking the action applies the full bonus
2) bucklers +1
Shield +2
Tower shield +4
3) give each type a reaction to differentiate them
Bucklers: counter-punch?
Shield: block
Tower shield: take cover?
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Lets be honest here many players (most even?) aren't historical reenactment types. I mean I'm here for the fantasy adventure. I really couldn't care less about historical accuracy, but what I do want is a light shield that leaves a hand free - realism be damned.
Lets be honest here many players (most even?) aren't historical reenactment types. I mean I'm here for the fantasy adventure. I really couldn't care less about historical accuracy, but what I do want is a light shield that leaves a hand free - realism be damned.
I couldn't agree more. Wether is a targe or a buckler or anything else I want to buckle a small shield to my forearm leaving the hand free.
To reboot shields', this is how I'd do it.
Buckler: A handheld mix of shield and knuckleduster. Requires a hand, can shield bash, can parry melee attacks only. Somewhat hard to use (martial weapon)
Small Shield: Strapped to arm. Cannot shield bash, leaves arm free. Can parry melee attacks only. Simple weapon.
Large Shield: Strapped on arm, requires hand to use. Can parry melee and ranged attacks. Can shield bash. Simple weapon.
Tower Shield: Strapped to arm, required hand to use. Excellent for bull rush. Large AC bonus. Can parry melee and ranged. Exotic weapon.
A simplified version:
Small Shield: Can parry melee only. Can shield bash, but requires the shield hand to do so.
Large Shield: Can parry melee and ranged. Can shield bash- Always requires the shield hand.
We are actually not even sure noy why it was called a buckler- speculation is that it buckles on your belt. Usually it was shown carried by a strap that looped over the top of your sword scabbard, just under the opening where your sword goes. Some later Italian bucklers had a hook on th front, which hooked nicely over your belt, and you cound wear the buckler on your belt with the handle facing out.
Just to add: "bucklers" in other languages do not have any kind of meaning that is tied to "buckling up" or whatever. In spanish, a buckler is a Rodela, which comes from occitan Rodelle, meaning "round", more or less. The spanish fighters of sword and buckler were called "rodeleros" (i'm pretty sure you know, but to add to the conversation).
In regards to NPF, I think I can foresee how bucklers could use the "action to raise the shield" for something related to shield bashing.
I think most people who want a light shield tied to the arm with a free hand, what actually want is +1 to AC. If you could buy a card you hid in a sleeve and gave you +1 to AC for very cheap, there would be no need for a tied-to-forearm-buckler, to be honest.
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I think most people who want a light shield tied to the arm with a free hand, what actually want is +1 to AC. If you could buy a card you hid in a sleeve and gave you +1 to AC for very cheap, there would be no need for a tied-to-forearm-buckler, to be honest.
The +1 to AC is nice (and in the current system it's not just +1, it's the ability to have up to +6 bonus AC with a free hand, if considering an enchanted buckler), but the style is also the other half of it. Not to mention the style of the entire Swashbuckler class has been supported on it.
Well, the card hid in the sleeve can go up to +6 too (or whatever is the max in NPF). Being a bit more serious: something like a ioun stone that gives you +1 to +6 AC for roughly the same price?
And if a new buckler is added to the game, I bet the new swashbuckled will have mechanics tied to it.
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The Indian shield people are taking about to my memory is strapped to the arm exposing the wrist and hand. Which would make it of little use except for the two bars that protrude above and below the arm or on each side depending on how you look at it. One besides the radius the other besides the ulna for the anatomy people. At the end of the two bars is a handle. At least that is how I remember it.
As for buckles they were also used to specifically protect the sword hand while attacking and in a guard position. Attacking someone's sword hand could obviously be fight ending.
I suggest bucklers give a bonus vs disarm attempts.
I am planning to do a huge post in the next day...maybe week on a lot of possible items to address with weapons etc. Bucklers is one of the things I was going to address, the one poster above mentioned many things I have planned such as holding a dagger and a buckler in the same hand.