Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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Well, reporting for Gen Con last year still has some foul ups, and bigger conventions tend to have mistakes, some of which is the result of poor handwriting in bad lighting.
I have to agree with HMM on the revision of what is normally filled out be the norm for the future, that being the Grey boxes and possibly the PFS number of the player on top.
But the online chronicle would only work if it was a PDF given on the player's account based on the information we already put in the current forms, and having the player fill out the rest electronically. (Printing out the sheet afterward)
This seems highly unlikely, though something like this may be something being done through email for the PHP sided of things. I don't know.
The info for the scenario should still have the ABCD and have the box for the primary (like SFS) objective.
Now, as far as the actual thread subject...
I think having a 5% discount on items listed on the chronicle is a great idea...
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Venture-Captain, Australia—WA—
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I have been reading this thread and think there is some great potential to improve the system.
Some background on my perspective first:
A. I am fortunate to have resided in California and Washington states the entire time I have lived in the USA. As such, I have rarely not had reasonable internet access and mostly good internet access. I'd love to have a more online friendly solution.
B. I have relatives in Australia who have spotty, at best, internet access and pay for every bit of data transmitted. This even affects what we can readily share with them and how they participate in this modern world. A 100% online solution would not be ideal for them currently.
C. I am relatively new to organized play (nearly a year since my first chronicle sheet). Most of my games that I have played or GMed have been reported but a significant number have not. I have one second level character that currently shows none of the GM or player credit he has been assigned. On the other hand, the very first game recorded for my -1 is one I have not played and I have another character where a game was reported twice (and therefore flagged).
D. I have had situations when I have utilised information/boons from one character sheet during the same event later for a later game. So any system that relies on producing chronicle sheets after the fact would not be ideal, in my experience.
E. I am not a programmer though I have lived with them for long enough to realise just how important good design and planning is for any project.
With that experience here are my thoughts:
a) We should be looking at what we think would be best for the beginning of PFS2 rather than try to include changes for the current system. That is what this thread was initially meant to address, was it not?
b) In my opinion, this is a great time to help design a reporting/tracking system that would move toward a functional fully online system while still providing written documents that players keep and utilise. Almost every system I have observed try to change from paper to digital without an interim period of both has failed miserably and often spectacularly. That isn't to say we can't move in a digital direction.
c) Having just joined the PbP community I can see that having a chronicle sheet that could be completed and delivered online would be a positive option. I suspect this is even more so for the VTT community. It would also be useful for some GMs who have issues with handwriting but may have easy access to completing and potentially even printing an online version at the event.
d) We should be able to work together to help Paizo design an improved system for PFS2.
e) Mistakes happen, so any system needs to include a relatively easy way to make corrections.
So here are some questions:
1. What is the minimum information that players need to track on their chronicle sheets?
2. What is the minimum information that we want GMs to be responsible for on a chronicle sheet?
3. What would make online reporting easier and/or more attractive?
4. What is the minimum information needed to be tracked online?
5. What is the ideal information for a player to be able to track via chronicle sheets?
6. What is the ideal information that we want GMs to be responsible for completing on a chronicle sheet?
7. What is the ideal information to be tracked online?
8. Why? This could be added to each of the above. Understanding someone's rationale makes it easier to work together to find solutions.
In addition, I will note that my experience of the current system of online reporting seems almost irrelevant for player information and functionally is mostly a way to track GM credit toward recognition. That could be another valid option though not one I am personally advocating.
The BIG question? Can we work together to propose an improved yet currently practical system?
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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The BIG question? Can we work together to propose an improved yet currently practical system?
We could but there is always going to be that element who do not want to do any reporting and will use any excuse to justify what they want. It's the same for designing something that uses an online system. Are there bugs to work out? Yes, there are. That's why you hit it hard and test it out.
What this really comes down to is people resisting change. I see it all the time. The same garbage is being used to bash PF 2.0 from people who don't want to change. You can hear them wailing on the various threads about replay and other stuff.
It's the glass half empty crowd being pessimistic.
There are things that have to be worked out. They can be worked out. History shows us what happens when people dare to do things and accept challenges. See Neil Armstrong on the moon for a great example.
Making this system can be done. The real issue is some people don't want it done.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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Even with that simple box you seem to be forgetting that it's not that easy. Say I get a couple of boons and decide to apply them to the character--now I'm up two chronicles past where the system had me before!
This does not include the other components that you may have forgotten about. For example, day jobs and gold earned from the scenario. Those two things would also need to be entered, because they are both variable. People miss stuff in the scenario all the time. Plus we'd need to know the levels of the characters as well as the subtier played in. And for GM chronicles if the GM character was out of subtier their list of items depends on the subtier run, even though the GM character isn't involved.
Yes, day job rolls would have to be entered.
Gold, XP, and Prestige would not need to be entered at all.
You would not have to know the level as it would already be part of the existing character registration.
Subtiers could be entered but if the tier system gave no option to play up or down it would not need to be. PFS 2.0 has no OOT that I know of.
Boons would require a player to enter the information on their end of the system. If they don't enter them, they don't have them.
As for what another poster said about the chaos they encounter, I've encountered player errors as well. Not earning a chronicle sheet might be a good reason for them to provide the GM the correct information.
As for GM organization, someone mentioned something about creating a GM guide. I think that is a good idea. I've walked a few budding GMs through the process of learning the ropes and a guide would be a good thing to have. It could show the value of good record keeping and give examples of player tracker sheets, Google docs, etc.
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Making this system can be done. The real issue is some people don't want it done.
That simply isn't true. I would love there to be a more robust online system. But having been a VL and VC for 5 years who has reported every single table of every single game night I've organized in that 5 years, and reported every single table of at least 2 conventions (CotN 2013 & CotN 2014), I know what it takes to report things 100%. I did that. I also instilled in the Twin Cities a robust reporting habit and at least all my play records are almost 100% reported. I'd wager, except for one venue that I couldn't control, that the Twin cities has over a 75% reporting record. That's pretty darn good if you ask me.
Knowing what it takes and how much time it takes to report on the current system, we wouldn't want it to take much more than that, or it simply becomes impractical. Its a situation of diminishing returns of what a volunteer is willing to do while still remaining active (playing, GM'ing and organizing) in the campaign. If you make it too onerous above what is currently happening, then it simply won't get done, or the reporters are going to burn out faster than they already do.
If I have to report 112+ tables (which is roughly what CotN sits at now), it takes several hours to finish it. If you even double that time, that's at minimum a full 8 hour work day just to report the convention. That's prohibitive to what you are trying to accomplish.
So its not that I don't want change. Or that I don't want to see this particular change.
Its that what you are asking for will further burden an already overtaxed volunteer force. It will as require someone, most likely not Paizo as they've shown both the inability (lacking technical expertise) and recalcitrance to do this, to program this new system. Likely a volunteer, unpaid project that could take well over 200 hours just to get the prototype going. Our resident programmer here in the Twin Cities who created an online scheduling App to schedule our home-grown convention Skal Con, took over 100, unpaid, hours to get it into a working state. I don't know how many more hours over the last 2 years he's spent updating it and making it an actual functioning App.
This isn't about, "build it and they will come." This is about finding the willingness of someone to use their expertise to build something like this for free. A project that could potentially support their family of four for a year if not longer, if they were to get paid. Its also about making sure the system is practical in its execution. If everyone looks at it and balks at using it because of all the extra time its going to cause, then its a non-starter.
Right now you are just throwing out idealistic axioms and hoping that you cajole people into not being pessimistic to make something like this happen without actually giving full thought into what it would take to make it happen. And what it would take to actually utilize such a thing.
Take off your "big idea" hat for a moment, and put on your "pragmatic" hat, and take a look at this from the outside.
Come up with a way that makes it cost effective to both build the project and that will take a similar amount of time that reporting currently takes, and I'll be the first on board to tout the new system. Until then, this is just a pipe dream that will likely not happen, because nobody wants to spend this kind of time on a volunteer activity for little to no actual pay off.
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Does a better reporting system make better games? Org Play is using the 4 box reporting checklist and the prestige count to get info from the games. Maybe more info like who had to be raised from the dead might help them with scenario author guidelines. They will be running a survey from the Playtest, I'll be interested to hear what the Org team thinks of the information pulled from those surveys. Is there something in those surveys that will benefit the Society if widely implemented.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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How will checking one more box overburden a volunteer system? That's what I don't get from you, Tallow. It's one more box.
As for cost, that's up to Paizo. They could do it if they wanted to. If they don't want to do it, then I wish they would just say they want to stay with the year 2000 technology and leave it at that.
Then we would not have to have this conversation at all.
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yes, day job rolls would have to be entered.
Gold, XP, and Prestige would not need to be entered at all.
Why not?
You don't get full gold every scenario: you can miss a room or not succeed at an encounter
Someones gold can change depending on playing up or down, in tier or out of it.
You would not have to know the level as it would already be part of the existing character registration.
And what happens if there's so much as one non report that their level is off?
As for what another poster said about the chaos they encounter, I've encountered player errors as well. Not earning a chronicle sheet might be a good reason for them to provide the GM the correct information.
And if they don't? What happens then. They don't get credit or that character effectively dies from transposing two reporting numbers?
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As for cost, that's up to Paizo. They could do it if they wanted to. If they don't want to do it, then I wish they would just say they want to stay with the year 2000 technology and leave it at that.
I repeat what I said 2 pages ago....what incentive does Paizo have to do this? What could the company gain from it?
They aren't going to gain more players because suddenly the PFS system is online. They aren't going to gain more revenue from it either. They are only going to add cost to their existing payroll. What is their ROI (return on investment)?|
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How will checking one more box overburden a volunteer system? That's what I don't get from you, Tallow. It's one more box.
As for cost, that's up to Paizo. They could do it if they wanted to. If they don't want to do it, then I wish they would just say they want to stay with the year 2000 technology and leave it at that.
Then we would not have to have this conversation at all.
Did I miss something? You are talking about 4 or t more fields of info entered per chrinicle.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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Yes, you missed something.
Yes, they get nothing. They can get their act together or miss out on things. As for changes in gold value, that can be adjusted.
You don't know they won't make more money from making a system change. Having a dynamic system for reporting and access to sheets with character accountability could very well attract players. Remember, PF 2.0 is coming out to attract new players just as much as it is to keep current players. It's about gaining market share and a robust, dynamic reporting system would be another way to attract players in the RPG market.
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a robust, dynamic reporting system would be another way to attract players in the RPG market.
You're confusing "the RPG market" with the "sanctioned play market".
A robust dynamic reporting system has nothing to do with the RPG market. Only the subpopulation that wants to play under the aegis of an "official Paizo club" cares about that.
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a robust, dynamic reporting system would be another way to attract players in the RPG market.You're confusing "the RPG market" with the "sanctioned play market".
A robust dynamic reporting system has nothing to do with the RPG market. Only the subpopulation that wants to play under the aegis of an "official Paizo club" cares about that.
I think the sub sub population that is THAT enamored with spreadsheets is already playing rolemaster...
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Yes, you missed something.
Yes, they get nothing. They can get their act together or miss out on things. As for changes in gold value, that can be adjusted.
You don't know they won't make more money from making a system change. Having a dynamic system for reporting and access to sheets with character accountability could very well attract players. Remember, PF 2.0 is coming out to attract new players just as much as it is to keep current players. It's about gaining market share and a robust, dynamic reporting system would be another way to attract players in the RPG market.
So you didn't answer the question. I indicated that entering more information would require more time. You indicated that its only checking 1 more box. Which admittedly wouldn't be that much extra. But then you are talking about entering day job rolls, gold, XP, Boons, Items, etc. That's a lot more than checking one more box.
What did I miss where this changed?
And your hardline stance on, "do it or get nothing," is not going to be a popular one. I can tell you that. It really smacks of elitism and privilege. You can't honestly say that you know everyone's situation and that everyone has reasonable access to reliable internet to be able to do such a thing.
Not to mention, if everything is 100% digital, you are requiring people to own devices they can bring to the game day. That the venue the game day is held in either has convenient electric outlets for everyone, the players and GM bring a long-lasting battery (more expense that not everyone has access to), the venue has reliable reception for devices that hook up to the 4G network, or reliable WiFi that they allow customers to use. These are all things outside of Paizo or our control. These things might not be dealbreakers if you can figure out a way around them, but they certainly must be accounted for.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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I loved Numbat’s post.
I think that this thread should be about both Pie-in-the-Sky ideas and about realistic nitty-gritty ideas. We want brain storming. The more input that we get, the better.
What I would love as a Pathfinder who plays both online and in offline situations with spotty wi-fi is a way to make chronicles easier for everyone. I’ve already stated that I want the guide revised to make the standard be the actual practice of 95% of PFS play.
In fact, going forward...
Let’s not have our ongoing prestige, gold or XP totals tracked on PF2 chronicles at all. Make the chronicle the official record of that adventure and the snapshot what you earned in gold, fame and XP for that session only. So where should ongoing totals be tracked? I’d like that to happen via ITS. Charli Poshkettle started using an Electronic ITS for Starfinder. It’s simple, and it automatically calculates my tiers in all the factions. I link to it in Charli’s sheet so that GMs can review it in my PBP games, and I’ve done quick printouts for playing in person. I liked it so much that I started using the Blank ITS with all my SFS characters, and I’d like to get one now for PFS because I really hate doing these sorts of calculations and paperwork.
I could see adding a section for XP, and having something like that be the record for all spending, boon and fame purchases, and keeping track of what level you are. There could even be a paper version of it. Maybe the answer to this is not trying to make a program to prep up very complicated chronicle sheets. Maybe the answer is to stop making the chronicle sheet the repository where we’re tracking all this crazy information!
Hmm
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I'm not sure what sort of mirror-universe I've stumbled into, but I agree with Tallow on this...
Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do, "You are about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination."
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I'm not sure what sort of mirror-universe I've stumbled into, but I agree with Tallow on this...Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do, "You are about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination."
I actually had Golden Earring going through my head, but yeah...
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Regarding digital/online/electronic/etc ITSes, here's a link to the one I use. Maybe it will help.
Moving the tracking of things like curent XP and prestige totals to an ITS would seem to make things easier in some ways and harder in others. Tracking SFS style factions in a single spreadsheet has proved challenging. (If you use multiple pages, like you are in your SFS ITS, though, it certainly gets easier.)
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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So you didn't answer the question. I indicated that entering more information would require more time. You indicated that its only checking 1 more box. Which admittedly wouldn't be that much extra. But then you are talking about entering day job rolls, gold, XP, Boons, Items, etc. That's a lot more than checking one more box.
In the integrated system I am proposing you do not enter most of those things. You could have it to where it brings up a checklist of what goes on the new chronicle sheet (all depends on what the new PFS 2.0 sheet will have on it). You're going to enter that data anyway on a paper sheet. The difference now would be you would enter the day job rolls, boons, and any extra stuff required for a GM entry.
The gold, xp, and prestige would be figured in by the system. (check the box on what is or isn't accomplished and that will dictate prestige (if there is still prestige in PFS 2.0).
They can print out the sheets and take them with them. Think of the integrated system as both a data storage site, processing site, data entry site for players and GMs, data retrieval site, etc.
The players and GMs won't need to do data entry into the system at the local sites. They could. They could also use electronic means to load the data into an app on a tablet or smartphone and upload that to the integrated system.
For everyone who says it won't work, I just worked for a company today that conducted interviews with people all across the US. One of the companies they work for doing this is a worldwide distributor of items. They manage a global network of item distribution. They run a multinational company generating billions of dollars of revenue all based on delivery of items. It all comes down to making something work.
I don't think Jeff Bezos will be hiring anyone who says it can't be done. Amazon (not the company I am talking about) was built by people who said, "We want it done. How do we do it? Let's figure it out."
Let's figure out something that will work.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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I could see adding a section for XP, and having something like that be the record for all spending, boon and fame purchases, and keeping track of what level you are. There could even be a paper version of it. Maybe the answer to this is not trying to make a program to prep up very complicated chronicle sheets. Maybe the answer is to stop making the chronicle sheet the repository where we’re tracking all this crazy information!
That's the spirit! Think outside the box!
Why do we need a chronicle sheet in the first place? What could we use in its place?
Something else that is making me think about some of this is that HeroLab will not be used in Roll20 for the official character sheets which will be used for the licensed PF materials there (holding back my comments on that sheet mess). I don't know what the plan is regarding that. But closing the door on HeroLab for that sheet is making me wonder what is coming down the pipeline. It could be a Roll20 thing in which case the companion sheet is the better product by far in my opinion as of now, but could it be that we will see a Paizo character sheet generator which will provide the stat blocks for use in importing them to a character sheet in Roll20 for licensed materials there?
If so, then that would be part of an integrated system if they incorporate it. Or it could be an app that Paizo sells. There's all kinds of things they could do. Making it easier to build a character and get it into Roll20 could possibly reach a larger audience!
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Why do we need a chronicle sheet in the first place?Probably because I have players with no electronic devices...
Aside from the resource (volunteer time, Paizo money/time bandwidth, tech requirements, etc.) downsides to implementing something like this, I think this is the biggest reason this sort of thing couldn't/shouldn't be implemented as a must.
Straight up, it is elitist and privileged to assume everyone has access to a reliable device during game play (or outside of game play for that matter.) This is a huge assumption that everyone will have the resources to make this something they can accomplish.
So regardless whether creating online chronicles an option, it should never be the only option.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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I said they could be printed out. Those of us with smartphones could use the electronic means.
In today's age it is not elitist. The campaign against digitization is one which is based on the principles of the Luddites.
Back to the need for Chronicle Sheets in PFS 2.0. We don't need them to begin with. An ITS type system would work just as well. Yes, it can be printed out.
Again, it's a matter of getting it done.
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I said they could be printed out. Those of us with smartphones could use the electronic means.
In today's age it is not elitist. The campaign against digitization is one which is based on the principles of the Luddites.
Back to the need for Chronicle Sheets in PFS 2.0. We don't need them to begin with. An ITS type system would work just as well. Yes, it can be printed out.
Again, it's a matter of getting it done.
So all the people who play this game who don't have access to the internet (yes, there legitimately are folks who have no internet in today's world), have spotty access to it, or who don't want to engage with the internet shouldn't be able to play the game?
That's straight up elitist and privileged.
EDIT: So it doesn't matter if they can print it out or not, if they don't have the ability to report/access it digitally in the first place.
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I said they could be printed out. Those of us with smartphones could use the electronic means.
In today's age it is not elitist. The campaign against digitization is one which is based on the principles of the Luddites.
Back to the need for Chronicle Sheets in PFS 2.0. We don't need them to begin with. An ITS type system would work just as well. Yes, it can be printed out.
Again, it's a matter of getting it done.
So all the people who play this game who don't have access to the internet (yes, there legitimately are folks who have no internet in today's world), have spotty access to it, or who don't want to engage with the internet shouldn't be able to play the game?
That's straight up elitist and privileged.
EDIT: So it doesn't matter if they can print it out or not, if they don't have the ability to report/access it digitally in the first place.
didn't you catch the answer to that when I pointed out my spotty access (and lack of a smart phone)?
here - I'll post the response....
I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life. I also note that you are saying you can't access the Internet while posting on an online forum. If you can do that, you can use the Internet to do your reports online. That's the place you can enter the data which can then be exported to the individual character.
You would literally be entering a few more pieces of data when you do the session report. If that is too hard for a GM to do, then I wonder if they are reporting the sessions in the first place. Since you are working on that fifth star, you must be reporting your sessions.
yep - "I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life."
I figured after he rejected my issues, I didn't need to pay much attention to his statements after that.
But that raises the questions...
Which is the "Repository of Record" - the "Master Copy"?
And If there is a discrepancy between the "online Repository/Database" and the "paper records" in the possession of the Player - which is the "correct" record?
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I said they could be printed out. Those of us with smartphones could use the electronic means.
In today's age it is not elitist. The campaign against digitization is one which is based on the principles of the Luddites.
Back to the need for Chronicle Sheets in PFS 2.0. We don't need them to begin with. An ITS type system would work just as well. Yes, it can be printed out.
Again, it's a matter of getting it done.
So all the people who play this game who don't have access to the internet (yes, there legitimately are folks who have no internet in today's world), have spotty access to it, or who don't want to engage with the internet shouldn't be able to play the game?
That's straight up elitist and privileged.
EDIT: So it doesn't matter if they can print it out or not, if they don't have the ability to report/access it digitally in the first place.
didn't you catch the answer to that when I pointed out my spotty access (and lack of a smart phone)?
here - I'll post the response....
I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life. I also note that you are saying you can't access the Internet while posting on an online forum. If you can do that, you can use the Internet to do your reports online. That's the place you can enter the data which can then be exported to the individual character.
You would literally be entering a few more pieces of data when you do the session report. If that is too hard for a GM to do, then I wonder if they are reporting the sessions in the first place. Since you are working on that fifth star, you must be reporting your sessions.
yep - "I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life."
I figured after he rejected my issues, I didn't need to...
Sounds pretty appropriate to handle things that way. I think I'll do the same.
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In my area, a percentage of the player base sets games up on a Facebook page.
I regretfully do not have access to Facebook. So I am not involved in those discussions (and cannot volunteer my services as a Judge).
I do have enough internet access from work to sign-up on Warhorn - so the venue that has a Warhorn listing I can sign up at. So I've stopped going to the venue that uses Facebook (I never know what they are doing anyway... they don't much use Warhorn over there), and now only go to the other. I saw one of the gamers from there the other day, and he asked why I stopped playing PFS. I mentioned that I still gamed, just not at the Facebook arranged site. He couldn't understand that I didn't have Facebook... though he didn't say "I hear the excuse and reject it."
I figure this proposal will be something like that.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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GM HMM (That's how I first met you)
Whoa. I had to squint at your aliases to understand what you meant there. Right, you’re Borox. I was your first PBP GM!
I think we do need chronicle sheets. They have weird boons, access to strange items and they are a record of a character’s accomplishments. And let’s face it, chronicles are part of the story of the Pathfinder Society. I’d just like to be able to take the tallying off of them. Have them list the scenario’s gold, XP, fame etc and reflect your choices as far as boons are concerned. But I don’t see a need to do the ongoing math totals on them.
Note: This is coming from a player and GM with a notorious math issue. I cannot do gaming math to save my soul. I have to do painful self-audits on my own chronicle sheets because I am always getting the math wrong on them.
Here’s how I see the revised ITS working: it’s a spreadsheet that can be online for those for whom it works. Or it can be in a paper version as well. But this way, GMs only need to fill out the money, XP and fame from the current adventure. The tracking is simplified.
Frankly, I’m a GM that should not be filling out Omaha-style chronicles, because I clearly have issues with basic arithmetic. Consider me bright with a learning disability in one little area, and you have an idea of just how painful gaming math is for me.
Thanks for listening,
Hmm
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think removing the ongoing calculation from chronicle sheets is an interesting idea, but so is its opposite actually. At the core of it, we track three main things:
1) Scenarios, which render an input of money, XP and PP. This is done on chronicles.
2) Expenses, recorded on the ITS. Spending gold and PP to gain boons/vanities/gear. Also selling and expending them. The intermediate result gets recorded on the Chronicle too.
3) Your currently held assets - what equipment/boons/vanities do you have right now?
If you take a step back you notice that 1 and 2 are actually the same thing: they're transactions. A chronicle involves some gains (loot, XP), some expenses (bought gear, expended consumables). All of these are about resources going in and out of your hands. The split between an ITS and the chronicle is artificial. It may seem convenient to track all purchases on the ITS, but it also means duplicating information. Additional effort and chance for mistakes. Everything that happens on an ITS, is tied to a specific chronicle sheet. You record the chronicle where you purchased/expended/sold something, and the money involved in the transaction is also featured on the chronicle.
So instead of removing the math from the chronicle, you could also abolish the ITS and put all transactions on the back of the chronicle.
The third item is fundamentally different: it's a snapshot of what you have right there, where 1 and 2 are about how you got there.
I would be interested in transitioning to a system of Chronicles + Asset Sheet, instead of Chronicles + ITS (+ some cobbled together asset tracking system of each player's own).
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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In education we use digital means. If someone isn't adapting to the digital world they're falling behind. That's not elitist. It's a fact of life. Sorry if you don't like it.
No more excuses about the Internet and access. There are Internet access points all across the US even in remote areas. Again, that's a fact and that's it. Sorry if you don't like it.
Tell you what, I'm just going to ignore those of you who are Luddites and move on to work with people who embrace positive change.
I've got better things to do with my time than waste it trying to change closed minds.
If you are at Gen Con, come talk with me if you want to work on making positive change. If you plan to reject change, well then, I guess I won't be hearing from you there.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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I would be interested in transitioning to a system of Chronicles + Asset Sheet, instead of Chronicles + ITS (+ some cobbled together asset tracking system of each player's own).
You could do that with an integrated system. Scrap the current Chronicle Sheet altogether and move to a character sheet with tracking built into it. The basic function of the Chronicle Sheet is to show a player's character earned X, Y, and Z. It's really an inefficient form of data sheet.
Let's take it a step further and re-imagine how we track everything.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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Frankly, I’m a GM that should not be filling out Omaha-style chronicles, because I clearly have issues with basic arithmetic. Consider me bright with a learning disability in one little area, and you have an idea of just how painful gaming math is for me.
Boss, you aren't the only one with a math disability. I call our Math Department House Slytherin and math as the Dark Arts.
I would like to eradicate the use of math in reporting. Or at least minimize it as much as possible. That is one of the complaints I hear about PF when I am talking to potential players. They see the numbers and say, "No, thanks. I've heard about Mathmaster."
Hopefully, we'll see the math usage decreased some in PF 2.0.
I really think there's a way to get event and con reporting done more efficiently. The bar code and scanner idea would work, but there would have to be some software to connect the parts.
There might be, probably is something even better out there too. I'll do some poking around. What I do know is that there is or will be a better way of doing it than the highly inefficient method being used right now.
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...come talk with me if you want to work on making positive change.
Then I suggest you put your money and your time where your mouth is and YOU spear head the project. Why don't you pay for the servers, design the screens, design the database structures, handle the security, figure out the problems and bugs, and deal with the complaints. Hell, get a group together, make an investment. You want change? Then as you said "do something about it."
I don't think Jeff Bezos will be hiring anyone who says it can't be done. Amazon (not the company I am talking about) was built by people who said, "We want it done. How do we do it? Let's figure it out."
Let's figure out something that will work.
You have people who do this for a living telling you there are technical difficulties in this project that make it unfeasable. Not undoable, I never said it wasn't doable. I said it isn't worth the cost it would require. I get paid 6 figures to be a web developer. I write in 5 different programming languages on a daily basis. I produce programs similar to what you are talking about. I do it every day, including many weekends. I am paid to go into areas and figure out solutions to problems, sometimes problems companies didn't even know they had until I came in and started poking around.
You can't compare to a product like Amazon or any other online company to what you want. You know why? Because those products will produce money in some way. They will create a revenue stream that you can point to and say "This supports the cost of what we've been doing." and "We are now making money on this."What you are demanding (and that's exactly your tone) will not produce any additional money for Paizo. Oh, it "might" and "it's possible" sure. So is the idea that if they give away their PDFs for free, then people will be more inclined to buy the hardback book. Do you want to be the employee that goes to the owner of the company asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars on the "chance" your idea will make money?
Paizo could have created a scenario tracking system to help out all their players years ago. Did they? No. Do you know why? There's no money in it for them. Because, believe it or not, THEY ARE A BUSINESS. Did an outside group do that? Yes. But guess what? That's not official. And if the site goes down, PFS continues on like before (not that I wish that to happen). If something happens to the system you are demanding, guess what? Everyone is screwed. Because people like you will have said, "I live in the digital world....there's no need to print them out. But now, the system is down, and I can't do anything." Oh sure, you could have printed them out, but hell, if you were just going to print them out, then why did you do them all electronically? What's the point if you were just going to print them all out anyway?
There are so many technical issues with this it's not funny. Without any solid return on their investment, paizo would be stupid to pursue this product. That is my professional opinion. You know, the thing I get paid to give and then backup my opinion with facts. The amount of work required to do what you are asking, without any type of guaranteed revenue generated from it, isn't worth the risk.
As a web developer, would I like chronicles online? Sure. It would save me work tracking and filling out papers manually. I don't argue that it isn't a worthy idea...I argue that there is no reason paizo would ever do it. Just like the scenario tracking. There's no money in it for paizo.
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As I was discussing this, Flutter literally fell off the bookshelf and landed on me.
I looked over the chronicle sheets. Roughly 1/3rd of them had some sort of reporting error. Easily fixed on my end (anyone going to question that the chronicle sheet says slow and i put LESS gold on it?) But how would the system handle such errors?
Shalandar
Is there a cheap way to collaborate with someone online with a chronicle sheet? A picture program two people can doodle on that won't mess with the resolution and still give you a printed product.
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I think paizo's game finder is terrible and should go to a geographic based web solution that should just track where the game days are, rather than a broken search engine that cuts off after new york and requires organizers to keep entering recurring game days into the system over and over and over.
The difference is when I said it would be so easy an idiot could do it an idiot went ahead and did it.
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Shalandar
Is there a cheap way to collaborate with someone online with a chronicle sheet? A picture program two people can doodle on that won't mess with the resolution and still give you a printed product.
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. You could always scan the sheet and put it on google docs as an image. Security could lock it down to certain people, and then you could draw on it there, if that is what you are asking.
If you are just trying to digitize your own sheets, I know of quite a few people in my area who scan/take pictures of their sheets and then uploads them to a google drive. Then if there is any question, they pull out their phone/tablet and they have their sheets. It's a slick way of doing it, that I've been too lazy to do myself.
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In education we use digital means. If someone isn't adapting to the digital world they're falling behind. That's not elitist. It's a fact of life. Sorry if you don't like it.
No more excuses about the Internet and access. There are Internet access points all across the US even in remote areas. Again, that's a fact and that's it. Sorry if you don't like it.
Tell you what, I'm just going to ignore those of you who are Luddites and move on to work with people who embrace positive change.
I've got better things to do with my time than waste it trying to change closed minds.
If you are at Gen Con, come talk with me if you want to work on making positive change. If you plan to reject change, well then, I guess I won't be hearing from you there.
Wow. People disagree with me, so I'm just going to ignore them. Is that really what you want to say?
1) this isn't education. This isn't a classroom. This isn't a business for the gamers and volunteers.
2)This is a hobby for most. Trying to force your paradigm on what is a hobby or volunteer position is incredibly myopic.
3) I'm not sure I appreciate how you are throwing luddite around as a insult for a valid choice people are making, or worse a on involuntary circumstance.
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Remember that it's not always a matter of folks choosing to not buy a smartphone or choosing to not have the internet in their homes or whatever. Sometimes it's a matter of the folks that can't afford a smartphone or can't afford internet or can't just bebop on down to the local library or Starbucks to use their WiFi for whatever reason, be it lack of public transit, anxiety, physical disabilities, etc. Or maybe their only means of internet access is at their job where all or a majority of not-work-related websites are blocked. Those people *do* still exist. Please try to have a little empathy instead of just declaring such cases to basically be SOL under this proposed system.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia
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Oh, there's money in it for Paizo. A lot of money in it. They need to attract new gamers. They've pretty much ran for 10 years on the premise that their game is superior to anything put out in the RPG market. However, the market is telling them that another product is drawing more interest and gaining the larger and younger demographic which will result in long term sales for that product. Paizo cannot coast along anymore. They have to be proactive or else they will become a niche company.
As for the system, I've spoken with other computer programmers and they said it can be done. If I had the money I would do it. Of course if I had the money, I would be looking at doing a lot of things such as creating a better record keeping system and marketing it to RPGs that wanted to operate a large community system of play.
I really hope Paizo will be aggressive in marketing PF 2.0. I think that they should be aggressive in marketing PFS 2.0 as well. But I am not in their marketing department, so we will see.