PFS-Chronicle Sheets

[shalandar]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

shalandar wrote:

Reduce the cost of purchasing items by spending PP: Outside of vanities, and keeping PP available due to death, there is no point to PP. I'd love to see something like "Spend 3PP to gain a 20% discount on one item"

Well there's using 2PP on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, which is used quite a lot. And although a lot of people lose sight of this, you can also use it to buy other useful things:

You're right. I usually buy that wand right off the bat, then its so long till I buy another, I forget about it. Yes, there are a few things, I'd just like to see PP be a bit more useful, that's all.

On that note...
I was thinking of one other thing you can do with PP points....
PP combine items in same slot: Spend 5 (making a guess here) to take 2 items you have already purchased that share the same slot, and combine them together. This wouldn't work with armor, weapons, or amulet's of mighty fists.

[GreyYeti]

shalandar wrote:

On that note...
I was thinking of one other thing you can do with PP points....
PP combine items in same slot: Spend 5 (making a guess here) to take 2 items you have already purchased that share the same slot, and combine them together. This wouldn't work with armor, weapons, or amulet's of mighty fists.

No thanks, unless the cost scales with the price of the items (and then it would be really high) that would be so abusable. The magic item slot system exists for a reason.

[TwilightKnight]

Only semi related to this topic, is 2E gives us a chance to clean up the prestige purchase system. Rather than have tables of available services you can spend PP on, why not just formalize the value of PP to gold pieces. Say 1 pp is worth 400gp or whatever. Then you don’t need chats and lists. It also would expand what they can be used for. If you have 20 pp and want to use that to supplement an expensive item, go ahead. Just means you won’t have pp for a raise dead or something else.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

On the other side of it though, as an added benefit if PP do have 'cash value', then items could be sold at 'used' prices (as long as it's not Starfinder 'used' prices) to defray the cost of said Raise Dead should it be required.

[TwilightKnight]

Not necessarily. We can still maintain the rule that anything bought with prestige is still worth zero. It may require us to say you cannot split the cost between PP and gold, or that any prestige used to pay is worth zero and you can only get back half of the actual gold spent.

That being said, if you half part of the prestige but not all and part of the gold, but not all, you would have the ability to mix the two to pay for a spellcasting service like raise dead.

[MrBear]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

On the other side of it though, as an added benefit if PP do have 'cash value', then items could be sold at 'used' prices (as long as it's not Starfinder 'used' prices) to defray the cost of said Raise Dead should it be required.

If it's opened up to all purchases there's no real reason to sell your purchases, as you can just get what you want in the first place

[Wei Ji the Learner]

MrBear wrote:

If it's opened up to all purchases there's no real reason to sell your purchases, as you can just get what you want in the first place

Currently in PFS1 items bought with PP have a resale value of 0. Are you suggesting that they'd have a resale value of 100% (if bought at least partially with PP?).

It'd make PP definitely mean something, and it could reflect 'returning gear in good condition' for an 'upgrade'?

[Ascalaphus]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Only semi related to this topic, is 2E gives us a chance to clean up the prestige purchase system. Rather than have tables of available services you can spend PP on, why not just formalize the value of PP to gold pieces. Say 1 pp is worth 400gp or whatever. Then you don’t need chats and lists. It also would expand what they can be used for. If you have 20 pp and want to use that to supplement an expensive item, go ahead. Just means you won’t have pp for a raise dead or something else.

I think the current situation where you have an upper limit has its virtues. Because you can't use PP to upgrade your expensive gear, there's no pressure to save it up for that instead of using it for consumables etc.

[MrBear]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

MrBear wrote:

If it's opened up to all purchases there's no real reason to sell your purchases, as you can just get what you want in the first place

Currently in PFS1 items bought with PP have a resale value of 0. Are you suggesting that they'd have a resale value of 100% (if bought at least partially with PP?).

It'd make PP definitely mean something, and it could reflect 'returning gear in good condition' for an 'upgrade'?

What I'm saying is that IF we open up prestige for any purchase at a specific conversion rate then PP is being treated as cash already. Demanding a resale value of 0% seems unnecessary in that case, as the only difference is that it's spent in predetermined blocks. Treating it as if it was still a vague 'other' currency becomes silly .

Personally, I would like to see Prestige used, probably as a spendable currency, to reduce the costs of items found on a Chronicle Sheet. Past the first few levels you never find an expensive item on a sheet that you can't already access except for unique items and ammunition. You just make a shopping list and buy it as you go with your wealth being the real limit on what you can purchase. I recently found a fancy 25k item on a sheet and got excited until I realized my fame threshold was already higher. It immediately made the item less exciting, and I feel far less likely to buy it now that it's just another item.

Using prestige to make items you've found more easily affordable, though, creates a stronger connection to what we've done and what we've found. Instead of rolling our eyes at the +1 Muppet Bane battle axe because it's a lame power on a suboptimal weapon we might decide that, at a significant discount, that it's worth saving several thousand gold to have a unique weapon and the story of stealing the Puppetslayer's Cleaver. You can even ensure that these bonuses won't be found on the optimizers favourites to avoid unintentional creep--if that +2 chain mail is discounted close to the price of +1 breast plate then it might not be wasted ink in the scenario.

That would make for far more interesting sheets, at least I feel it would. Otherwise, just save the space and only include partial wands, unique items and special ammo. No one needs anything else on the sheet.

[Micheal Smith]

They need to be consistent. I have like 5 different versions a chronicle sheet and its ridiculous. My OCD kicks into hyperdrive.

It should be simple to read. Everything on the current chronicle
I do like the idea of the Venture Captain and Location(s) of the scenario.

The rules need to be updated to reflect real world. They should be CLEAR on how to fill out each section. I will throw it out there. Do it the ARMY way. DUMB IT DOWN. We had a saying in the Air Force. Make it ARMY proof. Yes it was a shot at the ARMY, but it works. Keep each section short and simple. No need for a paragraph. Each block should be its own instruction set. Written to be 100% clear. I probably can take the current set of instructions, and make it easier, shorter, clearer to read. It may be dry and dull, but it will work.

Quit putting items that are always available on there.

Tracking sheets
I personally find them a complete an utter waste. I don't see people track arrows and all of that correctly.

But I think what would be nice is a simple outline of a person (later on you can get fancy and do different races) but have a line pointing to each location where an item would go. Then I can put the item name there. Even have a few lines to show upgrades and what chronicle they were achieved at. A section for scrolls, potions, wands with charge count.

I think we can simplify this:

Have the chronicle sheets count as the tracking sheet. So if I buy something during or after that scenario, but before the next then have a space to fill it out. But you don't require another separate sheet to track it all.

-or-

Just have a tracking sheet but no spot to put items or anything on the chronicle. Except for Conditions resolved. Spells learned can easily be incorporated into the tracking sheet.

[Melchior]

How about changing chronicle loot to a series of one-time boons? Have the Society actively supporting it's agents by opening the vaults before a new adventure? Mindblowing notion, but try to entertain the idea.

The way I picture it, at the start of the session, you show the sheet to the GM, point out the item you want, then cross it out. You now have that item for that session, and then return it to the Grand Lodge. One item per session, no un-crossing for unspent items. Several scenarios already employ some sort of aid, be it supplies or a small cache of potions handed over at the start. All scenarios allow you to pick up and use items off of fallen foes.

Being one-time only, and dependent on the specific chronicle, this would not allow, say, the fighter to fight forever with free magical weapons. If the fighter in the example somehow managed to align an unending line of weapon-chronicles, the variation in the weapons found would cost him the specialization bonus. It would however allow a fighter with an expensive frost-blade to bring that one fire-axe he found once along for a single stint when he sees he's playing the scenario "Freezy Frost of There's Going to be Something Cold Going On", without dropping three chronicles worth of gold for the privilege.

Have occasional uniques (like Glorymane, Gamin) be unlocked for actual purchase on the chronicles, but otherwise leave to Fame what sort of items you can get access to in the local merchant district.

[Ginasteri]

Pretty much the only thing I'd want to do is have a subtotal at the bottom of the gold before money spent.

[Gary Bush]

Gerard van Konijnenburg wrote:

I should have included that in my experience only a few GMs and players follow the rules as set out in the guide for filling in chronicles. That is both for online and offline and includes myself.

What Alexander suggests is what is currently done in a lot of cases, although it should be added that the PFS ID and character number are also to be filled in so the chronicle is tied to a certain PC.

For the record, the Omaha lodge follows the process as outlined in the guide.

But we are blessed here to have game stores that don't push us out if we run a little long.

[nosig]

Melchior wrote:

How about changing chronicle loot to a series of one-time boons? Have the Society actively supporting it's agents by opening the vaults before a new adventure? Mindblowing notion, but try to entertain the idea.

The way I picture it, at the start of the session, you show the sheet to the GM, point out the item you want, then cross it out. You now have that item for that session, and then return it to the Grand Lodge. One item per session, no un-crossing for unspent items. Several scenarios already employ some sort of aid, be it supplies or a small cache of potions handed over at the start. All scenarios allow you to pick up and use items off of fallen foes.

Being one-time only, and dependent on the specific chronicle, this would not allow, say, the fighter to fight forever with free magical weapons. If the fighter in the example somehow managed to align an unending line of weapon-chronicles, the variation in the weapons found would cost him the specialization bonus. It would however allow a fighter with an expensive frost-blade to bring that one fire-axe he found once along for a single stint when he sees he's playing the scenario "Freezy Frost of There's Going to be Something Cold Going On", without dropping three chronicles worth of gold for the privilege.

Have occasional uniques (like Glorymane, Gamin) be unlocked for actual purchase on the chronicles, but otherwise leave to Fame what sort of items you can get access to in the local merchant district.

hay... I like this idea. Nice suggestion (I don't see it being done in 2E, but I like it).

[Lambien]

I would like to see a spot for GM's to write a line, perhaps a quote from a villain, Venture Captain praise, etc. and a spot for players to write a line about the scenario for reminiscence and for contribution to the Pathfinder Journals.
I would like to see a list of creature encounters, to reference for future knowledge checks (if that will still be a thing in 2E. It is silly for a mid-level character not to know what a giant is, etc.).
I have heard downtime is more of a thing now in 2E. I want to see that incorporated on the sheet, or, day jobs should scale more.
I would like a descriptive blurb about the scenario to appear somewhere.
As many others requested, there needs to be only unique or discounted loot listed on the sheet.

[Ascalaphus]

Ginasteri wrote:

Pretty much the only thing I'd want to do is have a subtotal at the bottom of the gold before money spent.

Yes please! This makes bookkeeping much easier.

[Verzen]

Personally, the items available on chronicles are useless noise.

If I have 36 fame and I just do a level 10 scenario, what good does a "+2 belt" do me? I can already buy it. Why is it on my chronicle sheet? It's useless.

Make items we FIND in pathfinder more desirable. MAYBE have items we find on the chronicle sheet worth like 50% of the value of the actual item *as if we were crafting it* or something like that so that there can be an actual benefit to finding it on a chronicle sheet, but if we REALLY want an item not on any of your sheets, it's not impossible, albeit more expensive, to get.

[KAHL SINE_UN NOHN]

Yes Verzen!

Have the Chronicle Sheets actually feel like it contains REWARDS rather than just being a piece of paper to count my XP.

Write the adventures so that there are unique items or crafting opportunities entwined in the plot, and let us purchase them for cheap. Much more flavorful, helps to make our characters feel like HEROES.

[Muse.]

so... in order to give the players access to the items available on chronicles at a reduced price... would everyone be ok with just making the money rewards 1/2 what they are?

so there would be effectively no change in the PC Equipment - as a PC having 10K in equipment (of their choice) would then have only 10K in equipment (of items captured)?

[Ascalaphus]

Muse. wrote:

so... in order to give the players access to the items available on chronicles at a reduced price... would everyone be ok with just making the money rewards 1/2 what they are?

so there would be effectively no change in the PC Equipment - as a PC having 10K in equipment (of their choice) would then have only 10K in equipment (of items captured)?

I don't think that's a good idea, because if you don't want the equipment on the sheet then you're short a lot of money.

Take one of your characters with a new class (say kineticist), and look at the chronicles he got for playing some old-season scenarios. Would it really be okay to halve the gold on those chronicles to get cheaper access to the items? I don't think so.

As more classes are publishes, more equipment is published, people invent more weird builds, the likelihood that every chronicle sheet has stuff you want goes down and down.

What might work a lot better is if Fame access were tightened up a lot, so that having an item on a chronicle made a bigger difference; but at the same time, that all your characters share the pool of unlocked items. That would reduce a lot of the frustration of "if only my other character had been on this adventure". Instead, if you find something really interesting on a chronicle, it might inspire your designs for your next character.

[Terminalmancer]

The equipment that appears on chronicle sheets has been barely useful, if at all, and the number of types of builds will greatly outnumber the number of scenarios published. Since each build will probably want different gear, you're looking at PFS supporting some types of builds and punishing others. It just sounds like a disaster to me.

[shalandar]

What about getting rid of the "buyable" items, and putting some type of % discount? Something like a 2% or 3% discount to buy a single item of your choice? And yes, it's cumulative. Even if you combined 10 chronicle sheets (3.33 levels), that is only a 20-30% discount on a single item. Not game breaking, but something to work towards. You could even put a cap on the item or discount depending on the level of the lowest scenario.

Another idea, would be rewards like:
You can purchase one wand of your choice with 25 charges.
You can purchase X scrolls with a one level metamagic feat, without changing the price.
You may purchase one ioun stone with a 20% discount.
You may add a special material to a weapon or armor after it has been made. You must pay the cost of the special material + 10% for each enhancement the armor of weapon has.
Choose one spell from another class. You may treat that spell as a part of your class for the purpose of activating magic items.

If you don't like any of these ideas, then just get rid of items that are always purchasable. Keep special items, wands with lesser charges, and perhaps a few discounted items that aren't a big deal but would be useful for anyone to buy.

[JDDyslexia]

I wouldn't want to get rid of all of the equipment on chronicle sheets, but definitely, reduce it down to the most significant. Occasionally, you do come across a piece of equipment listed on a chronicle sheet that has a value higher than your projected fame (and thus making it accessible to the character).

shalandar wrote:

Another idea, would be rewards like:

You can purchase one wand of your choice with 25 charges.

I find that some of the most valuable items on chronicle sheets today are reduced-charged wands. You can get some great spells on wands with a reduced price because of the reduced number of charges found on the wand.

I will agree with a few of the ideas shalandar has provided. I would like to see the loot lists on the chronicle sheets be more consistently useful, and some of these ideas are pretty solid.

[Gary Bush]

Joe Bouchard wrote:

I wouldn't want to get rid of all of the equipment on chronicle sheets, but definitely, reduce it down to the most significant. Occasionally, you do come across a piece of equipment listed on a chronicle sheet that has a value higher than your projected fame (and thus making it accessible to the character).

shalandar wrote:

Another idea, would be rewards like:

You can purchase one wand of your choice with 25 charges.

I find that some of the most valuable items on chronicle sheets today are reduced-charged wands. You can get some great spells on wands with a reduced price because of the reduced number of charges found on the wand.

I will agree with a few of the ideas shalandar has provided. I would like to see the loot lists on the chronicle sheets be more consistently useful, and some of these ideas are pretty solid.

Definitely keep the reduced charges wands on the chronicles!

[foolishpete]

Although some of this has already previously been mentioned, here is what I would like to see on the chronicle sheet:

1. I think there should be some benefit to the items listed on the chronicle sheet that are available for purchase. They should either be available at a discounted price for playing that specific scenario or be a slightly different item such as a wand with a reduced number of charges. Having things listed on the chronicle sheet that a character can already buy at first level is redundant.

2. I would love to see a way to track monsters that we see on a chronicle sheet and a way that if the character successfully identified a monster, it could recall some of that information or have a bonus to its identification in future scenarios. I think that it is silly if someone sees something in a scenario, they somehow totally forget what it is in future scenarios.

[Terminalmancer]

foolishpete wrote:

I think that it is silly if someone sees something in a scenario, they somehow totally forget what it is in future scenarios.

This is a little bit off topic, but different regions and different GMs have different standards about how much your character might remember from past adventures and how to incorporate past experiences into knowledge checks. Not everyone rules that characters automatically forget everything they've ever learned between scenarios.

[GM Wageslave]

I tend to give my players a circumstance modifier if they can prove in a quick fashion (or let me know in advance before play really begins) that they may have information that might be pertinent to given Knowledge rolls.

If they have IC documentation it may be a larger modifier, and if it really tickles me it may be larger still.

...it's happened a couple of times, it wasn't 'quote from Bestiary X' but rather things like "Fought a Mouthy thing. It got Clyde Sick and was really noisy" for example.

[Fadrieldur]

For the new PFS2 and even for the last season of PFS I would love to see the need for GM's to micro manage player sheets be removed. We all know that 90% of the time, gms fill in the gold, fame, Prestige, Day job, event name/number and their signature and that is it.

The idea that gms have the time/inclination to fill out chronicles by the guidelines outlined in the guild guide is laughable especially in conventions or game stores where time is limited.

The Game is 100% based on mutual trust, why don't we treat everyone like adults and let them buy/sell and manage their sheets themselves. Outside of the gm writing down what was earned in the current game there should be zero requirement for GMS to monitor purchases, double check math.

Additionally if PFS follows SFS path in terms of Factions where you can change factions from mission to mission. A Section at the bottom of the chroncile that has all the factions listed with a Start /Gained /End numbers would be great. For quick reference and eliminating the need to dig through piles of paper looking for the last time that faction got used.

[Pink Dragon]

The following is my view.

Chronicle Sheets and the process for filling out Chronicle Sheets should not be tailored for Lodges having problems with players who are cheaters or who are incapable of doing math. Chronicle Sheets should simply list the rewards a character receives for a scenario.

A GM should be able to fill out the Chronicle Sheet once and simply hand it to the player without having to revisit the Sheet. Further, the next GM should not have to bother with Chronicle Sheets from the player's previous scenarios, unless the GM wants to do an audit.

The Chronicle Sheet should, imo, have the following information which the GM can fill out and then give to the player at the end of the scenario.

Player Name
Character Name
PFS Number of Character
Faction
Classes and level of the character
Fame reward
Gold reward
Day job reward
Event
Event Code
Date
GM name
GM PFS number
A list of boons and item unlocks.
A list of in game expenditures (bribes, etc.) more to remind the players of what happened.

Official tracking of item buying should be done away with entirely, either on Chronicles or ITS's. Players should be allowed to do that offline without needing GM sign off. If a GM wants to audit a character then the GM can request Chronicle Sheets and the Character Sheet to determine if the Chronicle Sheets and the Character Sheets align.

When I GM, I have zero interest in policing cheaters or math incompetents. If a character seems way out of line to the point of sucking the fun away from other players, I will do an audit. One reason I do not GM a lot in PFS is the Chronicle Sheet requirement.

Chronicle Sheet process should be simple for both the GM and player, providing flexibility for the player to think about character development between games without having to take GM time to sign off on stuff.

I agree with Fadrieldur. Organized play is based on trust. Trying to catch cheaters or math incompetents with make-work rules only angers the trustworthy.

[Xathos of Varisia]

GMs should be able to just fill out Chronicle Sheets online. Once entered, the sheets should autofill a character's data blocks. Online reporting and character tracking is an easy method to police PFS with. The technology is there and not that complicated. Then all a player has to do is print out a Chronicle sheet. For that matter, their character sheet could just as easily be online allowing for tracking.

Policing PFS is relatively simple with the technology available today. The real question is whether there is any will to make it happen.

[Davor Firetusk]

No every person or every venue does a good job supporting that level of connectivity. Sometimes for reasons like not enough outlets...

[JDDyslexia]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

GMs should be able to just fill out Chronicle Sheets online. Once entered, the sheets should autofill a character's data blocks. Online reporting and character tracking is an easy method to police PFS with. The technology is there and not that complicated. Then all a player has to do is print out a Chronicle sheet. For that matter, their character sheet could just as easily be online allowing for tracking.

Policing PFS is relatively simple with the technology available today. The real question is whether there is any will to make it happen.

I don't see this as a viable alternative. Especially with conventions, you can't rely on wireless connectivity to make these things happen.

I think paper records are still the best way to go, and being handed a physical Chronicle Sheet at the end of a scenario grants some level of reward to playing. I wouldn't want to take that away.

Now, that being said, I think there are some things that can be streamlined. Pink Dragon's field list is nice, but I think the only GM-required fields would be:
Event Name, Event Code, Date, GM Signature, GM PFS Number (just like the bottom of the sheet today)
XP reward, Prestige reward, gold earned, Day Job (all on the right side)
Character PFS #, Character Faction (at the top of the page).

Now, unless I'm missing something, I didn't think purchases now needed GM sign-off. I thought it was all on the ITS and that was that.

[Terminalmancer]

Joe Bouchard wrote:

Now, unless I'm missing something, I didn't think purchases now needed GM sign-off. I thought it was all on the ITS and that was that.

The official process in the guide claims that GMs need to completely fill out each chronicle sheet, including starting gold, purchases, final gold, etc. I've never seen anyone actually do that, so when it turns out that the online region requires it (maybe not of their own volition; I don't have the complete story there) I was pretty shocked. I'm still not actually sure how you're supposed to handle pregen play using that method since you don't know any of the starting values. I guess I should ask someone before I GM another public Roll20 game.

[Belafon]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

GMs should be able to just fill out Chronicle Sheets online. Once entered, the sheets should autofill a character's data blocks. Online reporting and character tracking is an easy method to police PFS with. The technology is there and not that complicated. Then all a player has to do is print out a Chronicle sheet. For that matter, their character sheet could just as easily be online allowing for tracking.

See the discussion that started about here earlier in the thread.

It’s a noble idea but it relies on two key things:
1. The GM must either
a. Have access to the internet at the end of every session or
b. Write down a LOT of information for later input
2. Paizo must customize the reporting for each scenario to track all possible combinations of outcomes.

The Problems:

1a - Its already hard enough when half the players are clamoring “I’m running late, just give me my sheet!”
1b - stuff is going to get lost or simply forgotten to be written down.
2. Is the highest barrier given the history of Paizo’s technical efforts.

[andreww]

Alex Wreschnig wrote:

Joe Bouchard wrote:

Now, unless I'm missing something, I didn't think purchases now needed GM sign-off. I thought it was all on the ITS and that was that.

The official process in the guide claims that GMs need to completely fill out each chronicle sheet, including starting gold, purchases, final gold, etc. I've never seen anyone actually do that, so when it turns out that the online region requires it (maybe not of their own volition; I don't have the complete story there) I was pretty shocked. I'm still not actually sure how you're supposed to handle pregen play using that method since you don't know any of the starting values. I guess I should ask someone before I GM another public Roll20 game.

The online VO's occasionally remind us that we have to make sure we always fill out all chronicles completely, including starting values, expenditure and totals. The response is generally that this happen virtually nowhere else in the world and that life is too short for such nonsense.

I suspect that there is some pressure to get online to do this from a segment of the VO base which is deeply hostile to online play for whatever reason. I assume this is why we still don't have the RSP years after it started and why we are limited to 8 or 9 supported cons a year, less than individuals parts of other regions get.

Basically, the online region gets treated as the red headed step child of PFS and it is very frustrating.

[Xathos of Varisia]

Kevin Willis said wrote:

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

GMs should be able to just fill out Chronicle Sheets online. Once entered, the sheets should autofill a character's data blocks. Online reporting and character tracking is an easy method to police PFS with. The technology is there and not that complicated. Then all a player has to do is print out a Chronicle sheet. For that matter, their character sheet could just as easily be online allowing for tracking.

See the discussion that started about here earlier in the thread.

It’s a noble idea but it relies on two key things:
1. The GM must either
a. Have access to the internet at the end of every session or
b. Write down a LOT of information for later input
2. Paizo must customize the reporting for each scenario to track all possible combinations of outcomes.

The Problems:

1a - Its already hard enough when half the players are clamoring “I’m running late, just give me my sheet!”
1b - stuff is going to get lost or simply forgotten to be written down.
2. Is the highest barrier given the history of Paizo’s technical efforts.

During a tournament, GMs will have to handfill a sheet out. Call that the action sheet. Later, they can input the data online. I absolutely do not want to hear the "X doesn't have access to the Internet" anymore. I hear that as an excuse from students and then watch them use that smartphone for everything but the work they're supposed to be doing. It is not an acceptable excuse anymore.

For writing down the information, it's simply a matter of passing a data sheet around the table. Players don't want to fill it out? Guess they don't want a chronicle sheet in any form then. Filling out the sheet is required or there's no character sheet.

Paizo can alter the programming for reporting. I'm not going to accept the excuse that they will not do so either.

It's 2018. Time to use the technology we have available.

[Sir Ol'Guy]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Kevin Willis said wrote:

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

GMs should be able to just fill out Chronicle Sheets online. Once entered, the sheets should autofill a character's data blocks. Online reporting and character tracking is an easy method to police PFS with. The technology is there and not that complicated. Then all a player has to do is print out a Chronicle sheet. For that matter, their character sheet could just as easily be online allowing for tracking.

See the discussion that started about here earlier in the thread.

It’s a noble idea but it relies on two key things:
1. The GM must either
a. Have access to the internet at the end of every session or
b. Write down a LOT of information for later input
2. Paizo must customize the reporting for each scenario to track all possible combinations of outcomes.

The Problems:

1a - Its already hard enough when half the players are clamoring “I’m running late, just give me my sheet!”
1b - stuff is going to get lost or simply forgotten to be written down.
2. Is the highest barrier given the history of Paizo’s technical efforts.

During a tournament, GMs will have to handfill a sheet out. Call that the action sheet. Later, they can input the data online. I absolutely do not want to hear the "X doesn't have access to the Internet" anymore. I hear that as an excuse from students and then watch them use that smartphone for everything but the work they're supposed to be doing. It is not an acceptable excuse anymore.

For writing down the information, it's simply a matter of passing a data sheet around the table. Players don't want to fill it out? Guess they don't want a chronicle sheet in any form then. Filling out the sheet is required or there's no character sheet.

Paizo can alter the programming for reporting. I'm not going to accept the excuse that they will not do so either.

It's 2018. Time to use the technology we have available.

Ah well - it was nice gaming with you. I’ll be moving on now. (I don’t have a smart phone - and my internet access away from work is spotty at best.)

I guess I can just move on to other games - maybe i’ll go back to miniatures games or card games... sorry to hear RPGs have moved on and left me behind.

I might try to get that 5th star first though. All I’m short is my 10th special (I’m run something like 180 games), and I guess that will be interred by the event Organizer... so I can likely get that before the game cuts to total digital...

[Xathos of Varisia]

I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life. I also note that you are saying you can't access the Internet while posting on an online forum. If you can do that, you can use the Internet to do your reports online. That's the place you can enter the data which can then be exported to the individual character.

You would literally be entering a few more pieces of data when you do the session report. If that is too hard for a GM to do, then I wonder if they are reporting the sessions in the first place. Since you are working on that fifth star, you must be reporting your sessions.

[Terminalmancer]

While I think a properly architected and supported system could work for players both with and without internet, the existing technical limitations would seem to make this a pipe dream.

[Xathos of Varisia]

What existing technical limitations?

[Tallow]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

What existing technical limitations?

Paizo's web site and their inability over 10 years to create anything that works well or is easy to use. Its all well and good to say, "Well just create something online to make it work." But that requires Paizo to put resources and man-hours into doing that, and thus far, they have proven to be both unwilling and unable (not sure which comes first) to do so.

[Tallow]

andreww wrote:

Alex Wreschnig wrote:

Joe Bouchard wrote:

Now, unless I'm missing something, I didn't think purchases now needed GM sign-off. I thought it was all on the ITS and that was that.

The official process in the guide claims that GMs need to completely fill out each chronicle sheet, including starting gold, purchases, final gold, etc. I've never seen anyone actually do that, so when it turns out that the online region requires it (maybe not of their own volition; I don't have the complete story there) I was pretty shocked. I'm still not actually sure how you're supposed to handle pregen play using that method since you don't know any of the starting values. I guess I should ask someone before I GM another public Roll20 game.

The online VO's occasionally remind us that we have to make sure we always fill out all chronicles completely, including starting values, expenditure and totals. The response is generally that this happen virtually nowhere else in the world and that life is too short for such nonsense.

I suspect that there is some pressure to get online to do this from a segment of the VO base which is deeply hostile to online play for whatever reason. I assume this is why we still don't have the RSP years after it started and why we are limited to 8 or 9 supported cons a year, less than individuals parts of other regions get.

Basically, the online region gets treated as the red headed step child of PFS and it is very frustrating.

I haven't noticed any hostility towards the Online region. Additionally, Jesse Davis (not sure if this thread or another) came in and explained why there is a limitation of 8 or 9 conventions. And it has to do with making sure the VO's running those conventions don't get burned out by always being in convention season.

And which real life regions have more than 9 significant conventions in a year?

[Sir Ol'Guy]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

I hear the excuse and reject it. There are far too many options out there for you to use the Internet. The world is digital. It is a fact of life. I also note that you are saying you can't access the Internet while posting on an online forum. If you can do that, you can use the Internet to do your reports online. That's the place you can enter the data which can then be exported to the individual character.

You would literally be entering a few more pieces of data when you do the session report. If that is too hard for a GM to do, then I wonder if they are reporting the sessions in the first place. Since you are working on that fifth star, you must be reporting your sessions.

well... Clearly you know my situation better than I do, so I will just shut up and go back to work now.

[Xathos of Varisia]

Tallow wrote:

Paizo's web site and their inability over 10 years to create anything that works well or is easy to use. Its all well and good to say, "Well just create something online to make it work." But that requires Paizo to put resources and man-hours into doing that, and thus far, they have proven to be both unwilling and unable (not sure which comes first) to do so.

Negative thinking never accomplished anything. Change is initiated by people who seek to create positive change to make better things. If we stand by idly and continue to be negative, nothing will get better.

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass half full.

Positive change happens when people take the initiative to develop a better way of doing things based on people desiring a better way of doing things.

[Tallow]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Tallow wrote:

Paizo's web site and their inability over 10 years to create anything that works well or is easy to use. Its all well and good to say, "Well just create something online to make it work." But that requires Paizo to put resources and man-hours into doing that, and thus far, they have proven to be both unwilling and unable (not sure which comes first) to do so.

Negative thinking never accomplished anything. Change is initiated by people who seek to create positive change to make better things. If we stand by idly and continue to be negative, nothing will get better.

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass half full.

Positive change happens when people take the initiative to develop a better way of doing things based on people desiring a better way of doing things.

Well that simply has not worked for the last 10 years. With 2nd Edition ramping up and all hands on deck working to make that lucrative, I don't foresee anything changing in the next 10 years.

But good luck being really aggressive and dismissive of everything others are saying in being a positive force for change.

[Xathos of Varisia]

Tallow wrote:

Well that simply has not worked for the last 10 years. With 2nd Edition ramping up and all hands on deck working to make that lucrative, I don't foresee anything changing in the next 10 years.

But good luck being really aggressive and dismissive of everything others are saying in being a positive force for change.

Thanks, I need it to deal with those who are pessimists and fight against change.

[Hmm]

So I’ll admit that as an online person I’d love to see autofilling online chronicle sheets as an option in addition to paper. Paper is needed because connectivity is not always available. Still, an online chronicle would be a great option at locations with good wi-fi. I’m wondering if it’s time to talk with Paizo Leadership about this idea again.

As an Online GM, I would LOVE to have a ‘grey boxes’ required only procedure codified into the Guide for all GMs, no matter the region. I fill all boxes out on chronicle sheets when doing online chronicle sheets, and I am not ashamed to admit that I do not enjoy doing so. I want the Guide changed to follow the common practice of GMs everywhere else.

Regarding Terminalmancer’s question: even in the Online world, held chronicles are filled out with grey boxes only because of course GMs don’t have the full information at that point.

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

So, why does the Online Region advocate filling out chronicle sheets completely? Jesse may have more to add to this, but here is my take.

For two reasons:

1) It forces players to self-audit and figure out how much XP, PP and cash they currently have. If it’s done regularly, it does not take much time and everyone has good records as a result. In PBP, I wind up asking all my players this information at the very beginning of a game so that I may then have lead time to work on their chronicles.

2) It’s the procedure that the Guide advocates. As one of the larger regions, we try to be exemplary and law-abiding.

★ ---- ★ ---- ★ ---- ★

At the moment, I believe that the only areas that advocate the complete filling out of chronicles are the two ‘O’ locations of Omaha and Online. I would like to advocate a changing of the guide to reflect common practice of just about every other region.

While I know that the enforced self-audit is useful, I believe that is something that players should be doing for themselves. I dislike it as an added GM burden, and that it sets up a situation where good GMs like Terminalmancer might hesitate to GM online. I also don’t want any online GMs to say, “I don’t want to do this fully filled chronicle sheet, so I am going to fill it out like I do at home and see if they bust me for it.” This sort of thing feels off. I don’t want GMs to feel like they have to skirt our rulings in order to get the job done.

So yes, I am advocating for a change in the guide. I’ll encourage completely filling out sheets for online chronicles so long as the guide states that as a requirement, but I’ll be relieved when the guide finally decides to reflect the actual practices of the vast majority of PFS.

Hmm

[Hmm]

One more gentle request to all in this thread: positivity starts with respecting others and listening to them. Sarcasm and snide potshots erode that respect. Good ideas can come from anyone. Please, let’s keep the conversation respectful!

Hugs,
Hmm

[nosig]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

One more gentle request to all in this thread: positivity starts with respecting others and listening to them. Sarcasm and snide potshots erode that respect. Good ideas can come from anyone. Please, let’s keep the conversation respectful!

Hugs,
Hmm

Sorry. Apologies requested.

I'll try to do better in the future.

sigh. I do tend to jump to sarcasm too much.

[JDDyslexia]

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

Negative thinking never accomplished anything.

You're absolutely right.

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

"I hear the excuse and reject it."

"I absolutely do not want to hear the "X doesn't have access to the Internet" anymore. I hear that as an excuse from students and then watch them use that smartphone for everything but the work they're supposed to be doing. It is not an acceptable excuse anymore."

If you want to have this argument, maybe come from a place of compromise or, better yet, detail the advantages and reasons of such instead of ad hominem attacks based on your experience with students.

We're not your students. We're adults. Some of us still use paper-and-pencil character sheets. Some us still track our purchases by hand on chronicle sheets and ITS. And some of us prefer paper over technology.