I'd like to thank everyone in advance that participates in the community. I have been playing Pathfinder a little over two years but only about 5 hours twice a month. I have been able to take away a lot good advice and opinions from all the available resources, especially from the community. At this time, I'd like to ask for a little fact checking since the Pathfinder guidelines are hopelessly scattered through out a good deal of material and not exactly straight forward.
I believe from research that my level 7 Kitsune Vigilante disguise check should be +72 under the best conditions before any applicable penalties and before I roll, but I wanted to get feedback if I am appropriately calculating this within the rules.
Here's the break down..
- +02 circumstance bonus (Disguise Kit gear, requires 1d3x10 minutes per Disguise Skill)Disguise Kit:
(page. 77 also PRPG Core Rulebook,pg. 158)
Price 50 gp; Weight 8 lbs.This kit contains tools like makeup and fake facial hair, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. A disguise kit is exhausted after 10 uses.
- +10 racial bonus to appear human (Change Shape Kitsune Racial Trait, like Alter Self spell)Change Shape (Su):
(page 175, Advanced Race Guide pg. 192, Dragon Empires Primer pg. 4, Dragon Empires Gazetteer pg. 11)
A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as Alter Self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely.
(page 240)
Alter Self
School transmutation (polymorph); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.
- +10 untyped bonus (Transmutation School, Polymorph spells)Trasmutation School, Polymorph spells:
(page 211)
A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
- +10 circumstance bonus (Realistic Likeness Kitsune Racial Feat)Realistic Likeness:
(page 193)
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisite: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial Change Shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
- +20 circumstance bonus (Seemless Shapeshifter Vigilante Talent via Seemless Guise Vigilante class feature)Seemless Shapechanger (Ex):
(page 15)
The vigilante seamlessly adopts any persona he assumes with magic. The vigilante adds his Seamless Guise bonus to the bonus on Disguise checks that he gains to assume the shape of another creature with a polymorph spell or effect. A vigilante must have the shapechanger subtype to select this talent.
(page 97)
Seamless Guise (Ex)
A vigilante knows how to behave in a way that appears perfectly proper and normal for his current identity. Should anyone suspect him of being anything other than what he appears to be while either in his social or vigilante identity, he can attempt a Disguise check with a +20 circumstance bonus to appear as his current identity, and not as his other identity.
- +10 untyped bonus (Mockingbird Vigilante Social Talent via Voice Alteration)Mockingbird (Ex):
(Page 120)
The vigilante can mimic almost any sort of voice, or even animal calls and sound effects, and he can throw his voice at a distance. This functions similarly to a combination of the ghost sound, ventriloquism, and Voice Alteration spells. A vigilante must be at least 5th level to choose this talent.
(page 248)
Vocal Alteration
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, bard 1, inquisitor 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You alter the target's voice to something else. For example, you could make the target's voice high-pitched, husky, or nasal, or change its accent to an accent you are familiar with. If this spell is used as part of a disguise, the target gets a +10 bonus on the Disguise check when trying to fool a listener.
The target can vary the disguised voice just as it could its normal voice. For example, a halfling female given a male dwarf noble's voice and accent could speak in falsetto, with a rural halfling accent, and so on.
- +10 disguise skill (7 ranks + 3 class skill)
=====
- +72 bonus before I roll and apply penalties.
The Pathfinder's rules as written suggests that my Kitsune can only change into a human using Change Shape racial trait while the racial feat, Realistic Likeness, grants the ability to appear like any individual.
I believe that rules as intended provides the synergy of the two talents to impersonate as any individual (including non-human with penalties) as a human with a limitation to my original Kitsune stats. My character would not actually gain abilities that are normally afforded to Alter Self such as darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet nor would it get the size bonus to dexterity or strength which are granted to small or medium creatures respectively. Additionally, I would not be able to use a bite attack because the Kitsune would be in its human form.
Therefore in order for me to mimic the appearance of an individual that is not human, my character would take the penalties as listed in the disguise skill using a baseline of a human with my character's original gender, age, and medium size against the individual creature that I am attempting to imitate.
Disguise modifiers based on disparity of disguise
+05 Minor details only
-02 Different gender¹
-02 Different race¹
-02² Different age category¹
-10 Different size category¹
¹ These modifiers are cumulative; use all that apply.
² Per step of difference between your actual age category and your disguised age category. The steps are: young (younger than adulthood), adulthood, middle age, old, and venerable.
Perception Bonus based on Familiarity
+04 Recognizes on sight
+06 Friends or associates
+08 Close friends
+10 Intimate
Anyways, that's the sum of my research but I wanted to check with those of you that are more experienced if I am misunderstanding or missing anything in the rules.
Seamless Shapeshifter AND the Realistic Likeness Circumstance bonuses to stack.
Seamless Shapeshifter acts like "Seamless Guise (Ex): A vigilante knows how to behave in a way that appears perfectly proper and normal for his current identity." Realistic Likeness Lets you "precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered."
"mimic the physical features" isn't equivalent to "knows how to behave in a way that appears perfectly proper and normal". One is a shapechanging ability and the other is an EX ability to act... I see NO reason to think they have the same source.
It won't tell them that you're a Kitsune, but it'll tell them that you're under a Transformation effect - rather than the Enchantment effect they were looking for.
Or the king like to use Youthful Appearance to look younger [and boy is the king NOT going to be happy you let his secret out]. Or Age Resistance. Or a permanent Telepathic bond or Soul Vault. or...
And gods forbid the royal wizard decides to hit you with an AMF.
So the king with all his magic goodies and protection regularly allows someone to strip all that away? Sounds like I know when to attack...
*shrugs* I said how I'd rule if I were GM in this instance.
I only disagreed with your reasoning: that they were from the same source, as they clearly aren't. You can rule however you wish of course but I know I'd question you if you gave that reasoning.
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I don't believe that the three +10 bonuses provided by Change Shape, Alter Self, and Realistic Likeness would stack.
The +10 bonus from Change Shape is the +10 bonus from Alter Self - transforming yourself into one specific human form gives you a +10 bonus to appear human, as if you used Alter Self to become a human. It's not an additional bonus.
Realistic Likeness meanwhile lets you change into different forms, letting you apply that +10 bonus to attempts to impersonate specific people, not just to make people think you are a human. It broadens the bonus you already have rather than adding a new bonus.
A kitsune with Realistic Likeness alone doesn't get a +30 Disguise bonus to impersonate humans.
EDIT: Seamless shapechanger does very clearly add a new +20 on top of the change shape bonus, though: "The vigilante adds his Seamless Guise bonus to the bonus on Disguise checks that he gains to assume the shape of another creature with a polymorph spell or effect." Mockingbird also appears to stack, though personally I find it a bit odd that changing your voice gives you the same +10 bonus as a full polymorph spell.
I don't believe that the three +10 bonuses provided by Change Shape, Alter Self, and Realistic Likeness would stack.
Change Shape and Alter Self, yeah they shouldn't stack but for some reason kitsune get a RACIAL bonus for shapechange while polymorph effects in general give a plain untyped +10. So RAW they too seem to stack and it even seems intentional as the base change shape doesn't even mention the disguise bonus so someone had to add it AND the racial type.
On Realistic Likeness, I can see an argument for it applying to disguise as a human: If you're impersonating a specific human very well, it seems less likely that someone is going to think you aren't a human right?
PS: I wouldn't mind a clean up of the rules for this and clarifying just what does and doesn't stack as even the most conservative read will net you a pile of bonuses that total well above anyone's ability to see through it.
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You can only be under the effect of 1 polymorph effect at any given time...so several of those bonuses cannot be used at the same time.
Mockingbird is only a bonus for mimicking sounds, so is pretty situational.
Your best bet is to mix a few things together like Realistic Likeness (Polymorph), with a Hat of Disguise (Illusion), and Seamless Shapeshifter (Extraordinary), combine that with maxed ranks and the class skill bonus, and nothing short of true sight should be able to see through your disguise.
You can only be under the effect of 1 polymorph effect at any given time.
That really doesn't matter when only 1 bonus actually comes from polymorph: the change shape bonus is a racial ability and the bonus comes from that [it's a racial bonus and the bonus doesn't say it's a polymorph effect]. It's much the same as realistic likeness, that gives you a bonus when using change shape but it's not in itself a polymorph effect. For instance, if realistic likeness is a polymorph effect itself, you could NEVER use it as you it works in conjunction with change shape, a polymorph ability.
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Realistic Likeness isn't a second effect, it modifies the existing polymorph effect:
"When you use your racial Change Shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual"
The change shape ability functions as Alter Self, which makes it a polymorph effect. The general rule for the Change Shape ability is:
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
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My SLAs function as the indicated spell, Weirdo. But they aren't. I can't take feats and prestige classes that require "the ability to cast arcane spells", in spite of having three different arcane SLAs. I can cast as many, if not more, arcane spells than any first level spell caster you care to name, unless you can find one with a 32 Charisma.
I'm not saying that Change Shape is a polymorph spell.
I'm saying that because it functions as Alter Self, it doesn't stack with Alter Self.
Aye. But you're telling me that, because they can shape shift into a Human, they can be MORE convincing as a human than a human.
Of course not. A human doesn't have to roll a disguise check to appear human as they ARE human.
P.S. Does anyone have a link to the SRD version of Seamless Shapeshifter feat. I wanted to see if anything was overlooked in it as well, but I can not seem to find it.
Found the Vigilante Social Talent: Seemless Shapechanger from Blood of the Beast
Separately, there is a spell: Vocal Alteration that gives you an untyped +10 for 1 minute per level.
/cevah
Before I begin, I would like to thank everyone that provided responses throughtout the thread. Whether or not my interpretation of these guidelines aligns with your comment(s), they do help me get an idea of the different perspectives and interpretations along understanding the thought processes towards getting to your conclusions. If anything the spectrum of opinions puts emphasis on the necessity of Session 0 which provides a platform for the players and Game Master to discuss how a character's ability (or abilities) should impact/function in the world/story that the GM is creating/hosting.
But there's no reason a level one character should be able to get a +66 to ANY skill. Because, except for his ranks -6), all of that is acquirable at level 1. A disguise kit costs 50 gold, nearly ANY L1 character should be able to muster that. Kitsune is a race, Realistic likeness is a feat that can be taken at level one, Seamless Guise (And presumably Seamless Shapeshifter) is an automatic class perk at level 1, and Mocking Bird can be taken as an optional class skill at level one.
The first thing I would like to admit is that Realistic Likeness is over powered as it is written. It is so broken that I believe we each enter some stages of grief, mainly, denial and bargaining. In each of our own way, we are all using circular reasoning to nerf the feat as it is written and published by Paizo because we feel that a level 1 character shouldn't really be able to do what is indicated by the feat just because they are a Kitsune. There aren't even any Race Points (RP) defined for the Kitsunes race to offset them from any of the core races to justify this ability.
Also minor corrections, a level one Kitsune Vigilante could have +56 to disguise themselves as another human; +10 Change Shape, +10 Transformation School, +10 Realistic Likeness, +20 Seamless Shapeshifter, +1 Disguise Rank, +3 Class Skill, +2 Diguise Kit. Seamless Shapeshifter isn't actually an automatic class perk. It is a Vigilante Social Talent that can only be selected during the odd number of Vigilante Levels. Mockingbird is also a Vigilante Social Talent but it requires at least 5 levels in the Vigilante class to select.
Maybe by pure RAW, but RAI is pretty clear from the actual feat:
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
The verbatim syntax of the flavor text indicates, "When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual." Some people interpret that to mean something similar to "when you are changing into your human form, you can take the shape of a specific human". The conditional phrase, "When you are in human form" is often made distinct and separated to defend an interpretation that limits the feat's intended target to humans. However, if you re-read the sentence as whole, it actually suggests that you have to be in human form before having the option to take shape of a specific individual. In other words, the flavor text limits the form that you can use this ability not the form of the specific individual.
This is somewhat analogous to a Level 13 Druid's Thousand Faces (or at Level 6th for the Urban Druid archtype) class feature, where the Druid must be in their normal form before using it. Except in this case, the Kitsune cannot be in their true form of an anthropomorphic fox but their alternate human form in order to use Realistic Likeness. So, if using the flavor text as part of the guideline, a 13th level Kitsune Druid could only use Thousand Faces while in their Kitsune Form or Realistic Likeness in their human form.
But I digress because it is all moot since...
Trolled, what you bolded is what is commonly considered "flavor text". It doesn't have any bearing on the actual feat, it's just there for fluff. I can show you the Scent of Fear (Monster) feat, which SAYS it's forhobgoblinsbugbears in the flavor text, but only actually lists "Scent ability" and "any evil alignment" as the prerequisites. I can show you a slew of feats where the first set of things flat out contradicts the rest of it.
*Note: I linked the feat in the quote above and corrected some text
Moving on...
However, since the player is attempting to claim "RAW" for any shape via "Realistic Likeness".. it seems disingenuous to later want to claim RAI for the Kitsune racial bonus...
I do apologize for seeming disingenuous. My original post took quite a long time to compose and there was some things I missed and wanted to include originally. But, I did spend quite some time to quote exact text, providing the appropriate links, and use spoiler tags to make the original post a little more readable. I ended up forgetting to write some things that I had meant to but was already discussed later in the thread by others.
I do not actually believe that when using Realistic Likeness to impersonate a non-human that I should get a +10 racial bonus to appear human. That is obviously counter-intuitive. As RockLee suggested some of these bonuses are situational.
And remember, I did write, "I wanted to get feedback if I am appropriately calculating this within the rules."
P.S. The editors (while not official Pathfinder rules lawyers) also indicated it should be human only....
I feel we should be absolutely transparent here, the "indication" that I believe you are referring is as followed.
Editor’s Note
The text of this feat states that you can mimic an “individual” which you have encountered, but it likely should specify that Kitsune have the ability to turn into humans, so GMs are encouraged to read the feat as follows: “You can precisely mimic the physical features of any human you have encountered…”
The editor mention above is John Reyst, whom runs the third-party D20pfrsd.com website. While I do appreciate that website, John does not work for Paizo at any capacity. His editor's notes are super helpful if I was playing a game where he is the Game Master, or even if I was playing with another Game Master that declared D20pfsrd website and notes as an official repository for the game he is running. But in general his interpretation of the rules does not actually influence the Paizo's game design at any official capacity. Here is a helpful blurb from this article, "Meet the man behind the internet’s most popular free rule repository"
We decided to go with the Pathfinder Beta rules that were coming out but we didn’t have a d20srd.org for Pathfinder, and since we all really appreciated the convenience of d20srd.org I went ahead and set up d20pfsrd.com. At the beginning it was just intended to be used by our own group to help gaming. I made the site public and word started to spread and traffic began to grow to ridiculous levels, to the point now where the site still gets 700-800,000 pageviews per day.
Sorry about the tangent, back to our topic...
P.S. Does anyone have a link to the SRD version of Seamless Shapeshifter feat. I wanted to see if anything was overlooked in it as well, but I can not seem to find it.
You are never going to find it on Paizo's Pathfinder System Reference Documentation. According to Paizo's PRD update page...
The Pathfinder Reference Document contains all errata to the Roleplaying Game line of products as of 9/30/2015, and errata from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Technology Guide as of 12/16/2014.
Paizo's PRD is a couple of years out of date. The last two rulebooks that they added were Pathfinder Unchained and Occult Adventures on 12/23/2015. That's why you won't even find the Vigilante information in it since that material is from the Ultimate Intrigue book which was published on March 30, 2016. Additionally, Paizo's PRD only contains content from their rule books and bestiary. They don't typically include content from Player Companions, Campaign Settings, Adventure Paths, or Game Mastery Modules.
Seamless Shapeshifter comes from Blood of the Beast which is a Pathfinder Player Companion that was published on November 16, 2016. I am not sure why D20pfsrd doesn't have it, if I had to guess they either skipped it or has been asked to hold off posting it to encourage Paizo product sales. Archives of Nethys has the exact text posted but I already provided the quote and link in the original post.
But since you're looking for something we overlooked, I believe that I'm covered under the OGL to copy and paste a small section since there's no artwork. But, anything more than that you'll have to either trust the Archives of Nethys or buy the PDF.
(previous section, Kitsune spells)
Vigilante Social Talents
Kitsune are masters of leading double lives on account of their shapechanging powers, and while few kitsune become true vigilantes, their techniques for juggling multiple identities have slowly made their way into the hands of vigilantes across Golarion.
Obscurity (Ex): The vigilante is relatively unknown socially. In fact, he makes a point of keeping the life of his social identity as ordinary as possible. This social talent functions exactly as the renown social talent, but instead of improving the starting attitude of all NPCs within the community, it empowers the vigilante so that he no longer needs to succeed at Disguise checks to appear as his social identity while assuming that identity within his area of obscurity. He still has to attempt Disguise checks when NPCs within this settlement are confronted with indisputable proof that the vigilante could be more than he appears to be, such as when he uses a vigilante talent while in his social identity. This social talent counts as renown for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of social talents that list renown as a prerequisite and can be improved by such talents. A vigilante with this talent cannot select renown, nor can he select any social talent that requires him to be famous (such as celebrity discount or celebrity perks).
Seamless Shapechanger (Ex): The vigilante seamlessly adopts any persona he assumes with magic. The vigilante adds his seamless guise bonus to the bonus on Disguise checks that he gains to assume the shape of another creature with a polymorph spell or effect. A vigilante must have the shapechanger subtype to select this talent.
Transformation Sequence (Su): The vigilante’s transformation between identities is assisted by magic. This makes it faster than usual, but also more noticeable. The vigilante can complete the switch between his identities in 5 rounds, improving to a standard action if he has the quick change social talent, and to a swift action if he has the immediate change social talent. However, the transformation causes quite a spectacle, involving loud sounds or music, brilliant colorful energies, and swift motions. A vigilante can select this talent only if he is able to cast spells or spell-like abilities (this needn’t be from his vigilante class). A vigilante with the magical child archetype effectively gets this social talent for free at 1st level.
(following section, Vigilante Talents)
Found the Vigilante Social Talent: Seemless Shapechanger from Blood of the Beast
Separately, there is a spell: Vocal Alteration that gives you an untyped +10 for 1 minute per level.
I hate to sound snarky but both of those facts were posted in the original post of the thread. I did spend a considerable amount of time to make sure the information was there, linked, and quoted appropriately.
P.s., there's a bit more that I wanted to write but it is getting late. I hope to have sometime tomorrow to continue. Thanks again everyone for your valuable time and input.
Found the Vigilante Social Talent: Seemless Shapechanger from Blood of the Beast
Separately, there is a spell: Vocal Alteration that gives you an untyped +10 for 1 minute per level.I hate to sound snarky but both of those facts were posted in the original post of the thread. I did spend a considerable amount of time to make sure the information was there, linked, and quoted appropriately.
P.s., there's a bit more that I wanted to write but it is getting late. I hope to have sometime tomorrow to continue. Thanks again everyone for your valuable time and input.
Well, the OP has the first item. I didn't bother to read all the spoilered text or note the captions. Your post was already a wall of text, so I skipped that part. Reason I posted that part was because someone else didn't see them and asked about them. They thought it was a feat, and I found otherwise. Hence posting the links.
Anyway, extra linkage doesn't hurt.
As to Vocal Alteration, I just checked. It is not in any post but mine [or quoting me]. Here's a way to get another bonus. While it is transmutation, it is not of the polymorph subschool, so is not covered by the polymorph's +10.
/cevah
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You're only half remembering that rule, IllusiveViper:
The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Circumstance bonuses, like dodge bonuses, generally do stack.
Weirdo, now I'm confused. What exactly do you MEAN, then? Are you saying that the various +10s don't stack for shape shifting, or just that you can't cast Alter Self and get the bonus stacked on top of the bonus for Change Shape, since both are Alter Self? (I'll agree with both of those, by the way.)
I'm saying that Alter Self, Change Shape, and Realistic Likeness are all essentially the same effect and that their +10 bonuses don't stack; it's the same bonus mentioned in different places in the text. The +10 bonus from Vocal Alteration does appear to stack as it's a different effect (not Alter Self).
I'm saying that because it functions as Alter Self, it doesn't stack with Alter Self.The issue is that it gives a different kind of bonus (racial) than the one that Alter self would normally give (untyped), this makes it seem like an additional bonus that would stack.
Frankly, that looks like carelessness to me. If you're writing a racial trait it would be practically reflexive to specify that any bonus is "racial." Conversely, if the writer intended for it to stack it would be much clearer to write something along the lines of "the kitsune receives an additional +10 racial bonus to appear human on top of that provided by Alter Self." Note that the sentence in question reads "A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human." Not being able to use your bite attack (natural weapons) is a standard consequence of being polymorphed - if the author is providing reminder text in the first half of the sentence, it is more likely that the second half of the sentence is also reminder text (you get a disguise bonus for polymorph) than that the author is quietly introducing an additional bonus to disguise that coincidentally is numerically identical to the one normally given by polymorph effects.
And even if you do rule that this is supposed to indicate kitsune being extra-good at using polymorph to appear human (which makes sense given that it's their main shtick) there's no reason to believe that Realistic Likeness is supposed to be yet another +10 for a total of +30 to impersonate any human (let alone any humanoid).
Speaking of which...
The first thing I would like to admit is that Realistic Likeness is over powered as it is written. It is so broken that I believe we each enter some stages of grief, mainly, denial and bargaining. In each of our own way, we are all using circular reasoning to nerf the feat as it is written and published by Paizo because we feel that a level 1 character shouldn't really be able to do what is indicated by the feat just because they are a Kitsune.
If something is that obviously overpowered "as written" it's a good sign you're reading it wrong. If you're not reading RAW wrong you're probably missing the RAI. And regardless of RAW or RAI you want to give it some very thorough scrutiny before bringing something potentially disruptively powerful into a game.
Keep in mind that merely the ability to use polymorph to impersonate specific individuals is quite possibly unique to kitsune, making it very potent even with only a +10 bonus on the line, and even if if it just applies to humans (not exactly an uncommon race).