Are there any spells that are Rays with the Force descriptor?
I'm wondering if it's possible to combine the Toppling Spell Metamagic with the Ace Trip (Weapon Mastery) feat.
Topple Spell requires a Force spell and Weapon Mastery feats require Weapon Focus which can only be used on Ray Spells.
I am unaware of any Rays with Force, but you may want to consider the spell Battering Blast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/battering-blast/). It is awesome and pretty much has a lot of the same functionality as the two feats you are looking at built into the spell itself. Combine the following traits and you can have yourself a lot of fun:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/metamagic-master/
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage/
Admonishing ray, though it's from Paizo's pre-Pathfinder days.
Battering Blast doesn't work for knocking targets out of the sky.
The Ace Trip is the only way I know of using Trip on a Flying target that can actually bring it to ground.
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Stephen Ede wrote: Topple Spell requires a Force spell and Weapon Mastery feats require Weapon Focus which can only be used on Ray Spells. Actually, we do have a published example of a creature taking Improved Critical (touch), so it seems like Weapon Focus (ranged touch) should be plausible as well.
not really a spell but there's a feat that lets you burn spell slots for an untyped damage ray add it onto something with sneak attack and you have a decent damaging ability
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Avoron wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: Topple Spell requires a Force spell and Weapon Mastery feats require Weapon Focus which can only be used on Ray Spells. Actually, we do have a published example of a creature taking Improved Critical (touch), so it seems like Weapon Focus (ranged touch) should be plausible as well. "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat."
This would strongly suggest that for spells you are restricted to Ray for spells as RAW.
Ranged Touch is something my GM might allow.
Admonishing Ray is still in Pathfinder but it is very short range. Even at 20th level you are only talking about a 75' range, or 100' with Enlarge metamagic
Use the reach metamagic then. Much better than enlarge.
Wow. Missed that one.
Much better. That works. :-)
The whole combo requires an insane amount of feats to work as a build but for the ability to knock a Dragon out of the sky with a single spell it's sort've worth it. :P
ew just saw that astonishing ray only does non lethal dmg
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Lady-J wrote: ew just saw that astonishing ray only does non lethal dmg That's enough to activate Topple Metamagic and enough to trigger the Ace Trip feat.
And when a flying creature hits the ground that's real damage. :P
Stephen Ede wrote: Lady-J wrote: ew just saw that astonishing ray only does non lethal dmg That's enough to activate Topple Metamagic and enough to trigger the Ace Trip feat.
And when a flying creature hits the ground that's real damage. :P battering blast would be better, cant use toppling spell if the target cant take non lethal damage plus just because the rules allow weapon focus ray and improved critical ray doesn't mean rays work will all instances were using a weapon is required
Toppling spell is triggered by taking damage (or failed saves or movement, neither of which applies). If you're shooting an undead or construct flying creature with admonishing ray it doesn't take the nonlethal damage and no trip attempt occurs. It still works on most though.
Note when tripping dragons that they have really high CMDs (including +4 s vs. trip!) which could make the trip attempt difficult. A quickened true strike will cover you but that's a fairly large expenditure of resources until very high levels. Say you're a 12th level spellcaster with a +9 casting stat bonus, ace trip, quicken spell, reach spell, spell penetration & weapon focus trying this on a CR 14 adult red dragon. You have a +22 CMB vs 43 CMD, and a 50/50 chance vs. their SR, i.e. 2.5% chance of success, or 47.5% with a true strike. 45% if it buffed with haste first of course. (I am assuming you hit their touch AC of 8) Probably costing one each 5th and 3rd level spell slots and either your swift and standard actions, or swift and full-round actions if you're a spontaneous caster, and so leaving you no other actions for defense other than dropping prone behind a rock perhaps.
Edit: Lady-J, battering blast isn't a ray, so may not be able to take weapon focus, if so he can't take ace trip & can't trip flying creatures.
ace trip(and ranged trip) requires ranged weapons to pull off and while rays may benefit from weapon focus they themselves are not actually weapons
^Weapon Focus specifically allows Rays, but doesn't make any provision for other types of spells. Allowing it to provide for other types of spells that require an attack roll (at least those that shoot one or more projectiles) would be a reasonable house rule, but is not Rules As Written -- expect table variation.
Even though Rules As Written, Battering Blast doesn't qualify for Weapon Focus/Ace Trip, if you could fly over your target before you cast it, you could push them down, potentially into the ground if they weren't already too high up.
Ranged trip requires a weapon. The first part of ace trip does too. The second part might not...
Actually the real question is why use toppling spell? I guess there's the option of targeting multiple opponents, but the CMB's not that strong without true strike - which applies only to one attack. And looking at it, the touch attack will soak up the true strike preventing it from applying to the CMB on the spell, but there's no such equivalent on a ranged weapon trip attempt.
^Good point.
I just remembered that as an alternative to a Force Ray, this thread may be of interest.
As a further afield alternative, Kineticist's Telekinetic Maneuvers also may be of interest.
If the goal is to make flying things drop from the sky with magic, a Hold Person/Monster does the job just fine.
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Xenocrat wrote: If the goal is to make flying things drop from the sky with magic, a Hold Person/Monster does the job just fine. doesn't help with creatures flying via magic tho
Lady-J wrote: Xenocrat wrote: If the goal is to make flying things drop from the sky with magic, a Hold Person/Monster does the job just fine. doesn't help with creatures flying via magic tho Do you even read FAQs, bro?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvpg&page=5?Can-you-fly-while-paralyzed#20 1
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Xenocrat wrote: Lady-J wrote: Xenocrat wrote: If the goal is to make flying things drop from the sky with magic, a Hold Person/Monster does the job just fine. doesn't help with creatures flying via magic tho Do you even read FAQs, bro?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvpg&page=5?Can-you-fly-while-paralyzed#20 1 FAQ link
Quote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action.
Xenocrat wrote: Xenocrat wrote: Lady-J wrote: Xenocrat wrote: If the goal is to make flying things drop from the sky with magic, a Hold Person/Monster does the job just fine. doesn't help with creatures flying via magic tho Do you even read FAQs, bro?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvpg&page=5?Can-you-fly-while-paralyzed#20 1 FAQ link
Quote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way
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Lady-J wrote: magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.
FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. Huh.
Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.
note how i said there would be some that fall under the faq but if you are suspended in air via magic and you cant move you would still be suspended in air via magic the magic isn't going away just because you can no longer move
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Lady-J wrote: Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.
note how i said there would be some that fall under the faq but if you are suspended in air via magic and you cant move you would still be suspended in air via magic the magic isn't going away just because you can no longer move FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.
Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: magical flight like the fly spell just makes you float its the power of the magic that is making you stay in the air so limitations on the body should have no effect, many other means of magical flight are also just mental control so again holding the body in place does nothing, while there might be some magically granted flight that is based on physical movement were this faq would apply that ruling not all magical flight works the same way That's an interesting argument. I wonder if there's an FAQ that addresses it.
note how i said there would be some that fall under the faq but if you are suspended in air via magic and you cant move you would still be suspended in air via magic the magic isn't going away just because you can no longer move FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. flight is the means to get into the air and moving around once your there, so you fly up as soon as you stop moving you are no longer flying you are floating(if using magic) or hovering(if not using magic) so yes a creature with a dex of 0 cant fly but they don't need to to be able to float
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Lady-J wrote: flight is the means to get into the air and moving around once your there, so you fly up as soon as you stop moving you are no longer flying you are floating(if using magic) or hovering(if not using magic) so yes a creature with a dex of 0 cant fly but they don't need to to be able to float FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.
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Dude, the FAQ already says that flight through magical means isn't a mental or autonomous action, and being unable to act (such as with dazed or stunned) means you can't take actions to hover or maintain flight. Full stop. Arguing against what the FAQ says is almost as bad as the people saying Paizo can't decide who is or isn't an Iconic.
And because the spell isn't dispelled, you fall at normal speed, so no Feather Fall shenanigans unless that spell is also active (which isn't a bad idea).
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Dude, the FAQ already says that flight through magical means isn't a mental or autonomous action, and being unable to act (such as with dazed or stunned) means you can't take actions to hover or maintain flight. Full stop. Arguing against what the FAQ says is almost as bad as the people saying Paizo can't decide who is or isn't an Iconic.
And because the spell isn't dispelled, you fall at normal speed, so no Feather Fall shenanigans unless that spell is also active (which isn't a bad idea).
psychic casters don't need to make physical movements to cast spells and thus are not stopped by paralysis, if they cast a spell that allows flight that flight is purely a mental action, as is flight gained with controlling wind with your mind or levitating things with your mind
Lady-J wrote: psychic casters don't need to make physical movements to cast spells and thus are not stopped by paralysis, if they cast a spell that allows flight that flight is purely a mental action, as is flight gained with controlling wind with your mind or levitating things with your mind FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0.
Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: psychic casters don't need to make physical movements to cast spells and thus are not stopped by paralysis, if they cast a spell that allows flight that flight is purely a mental action, as is flight gained with controlling wind with your mind or levitating things with your mind FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. except when used by creatures that make it a purely mental action, it doesn't all of a sudden become a non mental action just because you get paralyzed
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Lady-J wrote: Avoron wrote: Lady-J wrote: psychic casters don't need to make physical movements to cast spells and thus are not stopped by paralysis, if they cast a spell that allows flight that flight is purely a mental action, as is flight gained with controlling wind with your mind or levitating things with your mind FAQ wrote: No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. except when used by creatures that make it a purely mental action, it doesn't all of a sudden become a non mental action just because you get paralyzed The FAQ outright says magical flight isn't a purely mental action, full stop, regardless of what the source might be. Magical flight is magical flight is magical flight, whether it's from a Divine, Arcane, or Psychic source. If it's a spell, SU, or SP ability, it's magical.
Unless you're arguing that Psychic Spellcasters don't somehow use magical flight, and use some other sort of method of flight (of which is only Extraordinary left, which doesn't permit any exceptions that magical flight would be more inclined to do "because Magic"), your argument is basically irrelevant and flies directly in the face of the FAQ.
LJ, the FAQ is saying that all magical flight requires physical movement to pull off, even if it’s just arm swoops or leg bends to guide yourself. A paralyzed Superman, for example, is easy to imagine falling from the sky. And there’s a reason fly is a Dex skill, not a mental ability. You don’t have to like it, but he FAQ is clear.
if a floating head who has magical flight and the only physical actions they can actually take is opening/closing their mouth and blinking how would their flight be in any way shape or forum physical actions, the answer is it would not be because it would be impossible for them to do it in such a way, it would only be mental control that controls the flight, the faq is stupid and wrong on many levels but its not the 1st nor will it be the last that will be such and yes i defy the faq because its ruling defies logic
as for the superman thing ya he would fall because he isn't flying hes just jumping and its not magical in nature.
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Lady-J wrote: if a floating head who has magical flight and the only physical actions they can actually take is opening/closing their mouth and blinking how would their flight be in any way shape or forum physical actions, the answer is it would not be because it would be impossible for them to do it in such a way, it would only be mental control that controls the flight, the faq is stupid and wrong on many levels but its not the 1st nor will it be the last that will be such and yes i defy the faq because its ruling defies logic
as for the superman thing ya he would fall because he isn't flying hes just jumping and its not magical in nature.
For starters, this is extremely corner case, because I don't really know of or think of any creatures that are just a head that can fly. Maybe an animated object, but that's about it.
Second, being corner case doesn't mean it no longer adheres to FAQ rulings. You can call a ruling stupid and disagree with it all you like, which is what I do with Crane Wing and similarly nerfed options, but you can't sit there and give rulings that betray the FAQ/Official Ruling and call it RAW/RAI.
Even despite your arguments, your floating head would still fall if paralyzed, stunned, dazed, etc. simply because it cannot take the relevant actions to perform the fly checks needed to maintain its altitude, which means it defaults to falling. It's not much different than, for example, maintaining a Bardic Performance.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Lady-J wrote: if a floating head who has magical flight and the only physical actions they can actually take is opening/closing their mouth and blinking how would their flight be in any way shape or forum physical actions, the answer is it would not be because it would be impossible for them to do it in such a way, it would only be mental control that controls the flight, the faq is stupid and wrong on many levels but its not the 1st nor will it be the last that will be such and yes i defy the faq because its ruling defies logic
as for the superman thing ya he would fall because he isn't flying hes just jumping and its not magical in nature.
For starters, this is extremely corner case, because I don't really know of or think of any creatures that are just a head that can fly. Maybe an animated object, but that's about it.
Second, being corner case doesn't mean it no longer adheres to FAQ rulings. You can call a ruling stupid and disagree with it all you like, which is what I do with Crane Wing and similarly nerfed options, but you can't sit there and give rulings that betray the FAQ/Official Ruling and call it RAW/RAI.
Even despite your arguments, your floating head would still fall if paralyzed, stunned, dazed, etc. simply because it cannot take the relevant actions to perform the fly checks needed to maintain its altitude, which means it defaults to falling. It's not much different than, for example, maintaining a Bardic Performance. i agree with dazzed and stunned as they are called out as all actions period, paralyzed calls out physical actions only and for the most part that requires things like wings or maybe a jet pack any other ways don't use physical actions
Must be that the motor neuronal connections to the anti-gravity organs get blocked by the same things that cause Paralysis . . . .
Back to Ace Trip.
That is an odd Feat narrative.
Basically, you can "trip" a flying creature up to hundreds of feet in the air (thousands if you are flying also), and the victim (RAW) has no possible chance of recovering, no matter how long and far it is falling.
Incredulous.
mardaddy wrote: Back to Ace Trip.
That is an odd Feat narrative.
Basically, you can "trip" a flying creature up to hundreds of feet in the air (thousands if you are flying also), and the victim (RAW) has no possible chance of recovering, no matter how long and far it is falling.
Incredulous.
You are right to be incredulous. Because it does have a recovery mechanism. -
"A falling creature is considered entangled until it hits the ground, but it can attempt a Fly check at the start of its turn to stop falling before it hits the ground (DC = 15 + your base attack bonus); otherwise, it is unable to move (other than falling) but can act normally."
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Note to self, Duh, next time read the ENTIRE entry instead of stopping at the point it makes no sense...
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