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Could use some help here, any ideas?

Campaign: starting at level 1, BP 20 points, Races Only Core Rulebook, Classes Core, Base, Alternate and Hybrid

I would love to play a small race, probably Gnome

There are lots of ways you can go here, so lets narrow this down a bit. if you want to go with a small core race, remember that they come with a -2 to Str. So you want to go with a class that let's you attack with
Dex/do Dex damage.

Sounds like a Swashbuckler, or maybe a Monk?

You could always play against type though...

"Hey Joe, how'd you get that brtoken arm?"

"I laughed at that halfling barbarian in the fur breechclout. Next thing I know he's foaming at the mouth..."
Grand Lodge

Actually, you could go melee Kineticist, with the Kinetic Blade (later, Kinetic Whip?). Then Str gives you pluses to hit, and Con would give you extra damage. Earth or Water would probably be the element to pick for defenses. Fire or Aether could get you a melee touch attack (but you would want to take the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to bump your armor class).
Egil Firehair wrote:

Actually, you could go melee Kineticist, with the Kinetic Blade (later, Kinetic Whip?). Then Str gives you pluses to hit, and Con would give you extra damage. Earth or Water would probably be the element to pick for defenses. Fire or Aether could get you a melee touch attack (but you would want to take the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to bump your armor class).

Occult classes are disallowed.

Quote:
Classes Core, Base, Alternate and Hybrid

@OP, are archetypes not in the books with the classes allowed?

I'm presently playing a Gnome Paladin with the Shining Knight archetype.

We used a 15 point build, so my starting scores were S 13, D 10, C 14, I 13, W 8, C 16.

My first five feats were Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge and Unsanctioned Knowledge.

I took the Rich Parents trait so I'd have enough money to begin play with a (purchased) mount, which worked well enough until I acquired the paladin's mount class feature at 5th level.

The character is a lot of fun to play and very effective.

If you want to go gnome, a good choice might be slayer:

1) The increased Charisma supports feint and demoralize attempts. For the latter you might want to take the Taunt feat.
2) You can pick up the prankster race trait for better dirty tricks.
3) If you want to go further down the dirty trick route, the alternate racial trait dirty trickster helps.
4) Gnome Weapon Focus gives you another +1 to attack bonus, corners you into gnome weapons though.
5) The gnome slayer favored class bonus is nice: +1/6 slayer talent.
6) Go Unnoticed allows you to sometimes hide in combat.

Thanks all of you!
I got some time to think while i was at work and i came up with this:

- He's gonna be Gnome or Halfling
- I can either go Swashbuckler or also against the type (i'm not scared) as Sir Belmont was suggesting
- He will probably fit an LN/LE alignment, i'm thinking of him as some kind of cavalier

@I asked for archetypes since was a nice question i couldn't answer, lets see!

Have you considered the Daring Champion cavalier archetype that makes them more swashbuckler-like?
I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:

- I can either go Swashbuckler or also against the type (i'm not scared) as Sir Belmont was suggesting

- He will probably fit an LN/LE alignment, i'm thinking of him as some kind of cavalier

Wait, a cavalier is either a mounted combatant, (in which case you probably should pick a class with amount), or a noble knight (in which case you should be LG).

I'm a bit confused here.

Yeah me too.. i didn't really mean Cavalier, i mean someone with a code of honor like they have
Silver Crusade

Halfling is the optimal race for the Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype (Inner Sea Magic). You start with Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, so you're free to take Toughness at lvl 1. Note: must worship Sarenrae.

Well Cavalier or Swashbuckler, i need some help on creating his own motivations, here's some stuff i'm sure about:

-He doesn't harm childrens (of whatever race they are), not directly at least
-He love to gift the most poor childrens with little statues created by himself and rappresenting himself (Toys)
-He always respect the word he gave

Some other ideas?
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I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:
Yeah me too.. i didn't really mean Cavalier, i mean someone with a code of honor like they have

So the later meaning of the word, ok. In that case, I strongly suggest you look at the Virtuous Bravo archetype for Paladin - it's basically a Swashbuckler, only not sucking. It has a very good defense and is pretty easy to play (it looses the complicated stuff the Paladin normally has).

@Derklord what about the LE alignment tho? does it work with that pala-archetype?

For a Size Small melee character, I like the idea of focusing on Sneak Attack Damage. I like to stack up lots of alternative methods for securing SAD:

Bluffing and Feinting

Dirty Tricks

Turning Invisible

Teleporting to Flank

Just plain winning Initiative.

I multiclass aggressively. I like taking levels in Ninja, Snakebite Striker Brawler, Arcanist, Bounty Hunter Slayer, Vivisectionist Alchemist, and other things for small, SAD melee character.

I have a build
I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:
@Derklord what about the LE alignment tho? does it work with that pala-archetype?

Does Virtuous Bravo stack with any of the lawful antipaladin archetypes?

EDIT

It seems to stack with Tyrant!
Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:
@Derklord what about the LE alignment tho? does it work with that pala-archetype?

Does Virtuous Bravo stack with any of the lawful antipaladin archetypes?

EDIT

It seems to stack with Tyrant!

According to the AoN archetype listing, tyrant replaces class skills, code, and fiendish boon. Bravo replaces armour prof, smite, mercy, spells aura of justice, and the capstone. They're as compatible as a paladin and antipaladin archetype will ever be.

Got it. Now: Does antipaladin favour me if we're going to run a classic campaign good vs evil?
The fact is the GM didn't pronounce about, this isn't an evil campaign, so i'm wondering if antipaladin could be the right choice.

Now, i could use some help defining the mentality of the PC as written above:
- Which goals he wants to achieve?
- Which vision of the world does he have, and how he wants it to be?
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Antipaladins aren't weak, even in a classic good vs. evil campaign. You won't be able to smite anything, but with touch of corruption your damage will hardly be lagging. Here's a link to an antipaladin guide.

As for his goals and mentality ... antipaladins make for an interesting roll playing challenge in that they're actually dedicated to doing the wrong thing, rather then just morally bankrupt. The Tyrant archetype seems to have a goal fur the world implied ... but that's just a name, it doesn't mean anything. And playing against type is almost nessessary to having an interesting character.

Perhaps your antipaladin is against such concepts as good and evil. The antipaladin understands that people do what they want to do, and the only difference between the noble and the ignoble is that they want different things. Maybe your antipaladin just does the things the antipaladin finds most satisfying, without thinking too hard about whether other people would agree with his decisions if they knew. Maybe the antipaladin enjoys helping people, and does so, because of the warm fuzzy feeling it brings, the feeling of leaving the world a little better than you found it. Maybe the antipaladin also enjoys murder, and does that to, because of the thrill and adrenaline it provides.

The antipaladin acts nobly and selflessly, for the same reason anyone else does. He enjoys helping people and hearing their admiration. Maybe he'll found a kingdom. Being a king sounds fun. He'd make a good king.

If you're using a classical good-vs-evil campaign, playing an evil character might be pretty hard both mechanically and flavorwise. Especially if it's your first character (you weren't explicit, but it sounds like it is), I would strongly suggest not to play an evil character.

Virtuous Bravo is Paladin, so lawful good only. The only (crappy) Paladin archetype that doesn't need to be LG is incompatible with it.
Derklord wrote:

If you're using a classical good-vs-evil campaign, playing an evil character might be pretty hard both mechanically and flavorwise. Especially if it's your first character (you weren't explicit, but it sounds like it is), I would strongly suggest not to play an evil character.

Virtuous Bravo is Paladin, so lawful good only. The only (crappy) Paladin archetype that doesn't need to be LG is incompatible with it.

What makes you think that this is their first character? Like, where did you get that from? I didn't see anything to make me suspect as much, but after your post I did the obvious thing and checked their post history. They've been a part of this forum since 2015 . . . is there some context I missed?

And as far as Virtuous Bravo antipaladins go . . . while I think it's pretty intuitive that paladin archetypes map onto the antipaladin (I mean, there's no particular reason for there to be swashbuckly or gunslingy paladins but not their unholy counterpart) I could see an argument for them replacing abilities that the antipaladin alters. I suppose it would be in ask your DM territory, just to make sure everyone is on the same page.

@Derklord: I've successfully played a NE character in a good aligned party, currently i'm playing a CE character in a Neutral one.

Now, first evil? Nah. First Legal, yeah.
When i ask for motivations moving him to that side is simply to not emulate my NE character.

Since the NE PC was pretty moved by money, i prefer this time doing something more complex, a PC who follows the most his moral code.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

For a Size Small melee character, I like the idea of focusing on Sneak Attack Damage. I like to stack up lots of alternative methods for securing SAD:

IMO, multiple methods of securing SAD is the best way to play a sneak attacker, but I also think a good movement rate is important for such characters. It's often hard to get into a flanking position and attack in the same round if you only have 20' move.

If I were to play a size small sneak attacker I'd play a Halfling with the Fleet of Foot alternative racial trait.

I'm more focused right now on the own moral code, which i can't really figure out.

Here's a guide I found on playing a lawful evil PC.

Nice one thank you!!

So, this is a sample of a code, taken from your link:
A code of conduct for a lawful evil organization may look like this:

1. You shall not lie.

2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order.

3. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order.

4. You shall not aid the weak.

5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades.

6. You shall follow the law.

7. You shall not betray others.

8. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak.

9. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades.

10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society.

Any advice on something missing, something that should be changed?
I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:

So, this is a sample of a code, taken from your link:

A code of conduct for a lawful evil organization may look like this:

1. You shall not lie.

2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order.

3. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order.

4. You shall not aid the weak.

5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades.

6. You shall follow the law.

7. You shall not betray others.

8. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak.

9. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades.

10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society.

Any advice on something missing, something that should be changed?

I think you need to prioritize your list of do's and don't's - decide which ones are really important, and which ones not so important. Otherwise when they come into conflict you'll blow a fuse.

You mean select just some from the list right?

You could do that. It is a rather long list. But what I meant was that you should work out what the code is trying to achieve. There has to be a point to it.

If it's just an arbitrary list of do's and don't's then it may prove a real headache to play, or your character may come across as something of a jerk. It's a mistake often made by players who don't understand the paladin.
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Moonclanger wrote:

You could do that. It is a rather long list. But what I meant was that you should work out what the code is trying to achieve. There has to be a point to it.

If it's just an arbitrary list of do's and don't's then it may prove a real headache to play, or your character may come across as something of a jerk. It's a mistake often made by players who don't understand the paladin.

To expand on my earlier comments:

Perhaps your character is a member of a criminal organisation with a code of conduct intended to protect it from the law and to keep lower-ranking members in line - like the mafia in the Godfather.

Or perhaps you have a personal code intended to keep you sane in a world gone mad - lines that you will not cross, rules that make you better than the CE barbarian. Examples of such lines in your list are #1, #5, #6 and #7, with anything else being fair game.

Other examples include the mercenary's code common in fiction, which basically states, Do the job and get paid what it's worth. And the Lannisters' motto - "A Lannister always pays his debts."

The code needs to have a purpose, otherwise what's the point?
Moonclanger wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
For a Size Small melee character, I like the idea of focusing on Sneak Attack Damage. I like to stack up lots of alternative methods for securing SAD:

IMO, multiple methods of securing SAD is the best way to play a sneak attacker, but I also think a good movement rate is important for such characters. It's often hard to get into a flanking position and attack in the same round if you only have 20' move.

If I were to play a size small sneak attacker I'd play a Halfling with the Fleet of Foot alternative racial trait.

I like Fleet-of-Foot Halflings, too, maybe take Panther Style Feats and Broken Wing Gambit so you draw lots of bonus attacks and dish them out just as wickedly. Goblins have a 30' Move, too, and I love those Goblin Feats Tangle Feet and Roll with it.

Part of the reason why I like to dip a level in Arcanist is to get the Arcane Exploit Dimensional Slide, a 10' Teleport that doesn't leave you disoriented and can be done as part of your Move.
Grand Lodge

I'm playing a strength based halfling, currently at level 2, but has some really nice options going for him at levels 7+

Halfling, Id Rager (anger) archetype
He doesn't have any trouble hitting his targets so far and has plenty rounds of rage. His profile's playstyle lists his abilities and tactics. Even at level 2 I love seeing the reaction of GMs when they first learn my halfling has a 20 strength with no magic items.

@Moonclanger got it, understood finally :D!
Lets consider my PC is a Lawful Evil Cavalier, with his own code.
What should i put in?
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Some LE leaning cavailer orders:

Asp wrote:
An order of the asp cavalier must endeavor to enhance her prestige, wealth, and power, as well as that of her patrons. She must endeavor to maximize her profits and efficiency, directing hirelings and even sacrificing them when doing so would further her goals and make her appear exceptional by comparison.
Cockatrice wrote:
The cavalier must keep his own interests and aims above those of all others. He must always accept payment when it is due, rewards when earned, and an even (or greater) share of loot. The cavalier must take every opportunity to increase his own stature, prestige, and power.
Ennead Star wrote:
The cavalier is a merciless champion of the law, and if he must crush dreams, coerce obedience, or slay in the name of law, that is a small price to pay for peace and progress. The cavalier must bring lawbreakers to justice, and when that is not possible, he must serve as executioner of that justice. He must also uphold the tenets of his Hellknight order.

Wow awesome Obscure citations thanks very much!!
Are there some others?
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I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:

@Moonclanger got it, understood finally :D!

Lets consider my PC is a Lawful Evil Cavalier, with his own code.
What should i put in?

Well, I'd start by choosing an appropriate order, such as one of the three Obscure Citations mentions.

Ennead Star is obviously very lawful and probably needs nothing added to it - if that is you want to play an LE policeman.

If you don't then pick Asp or Cockatrice, which are more concerned with personal prestige so are more evil (self-centered) than lawful. If you select one of these two you might want to add a few of your own rules to make sure the character comes across as LE rather than NE or CE.

For example: I always keep my word. I always pay my debts (i.e. return favours and avenge slights).

The point of rules like these is that you want to be able to respect yourself and have others respect you. That's really all you need. Anything more is counter-productive - remember, you are evil.

I love Lannisters btw!
Anyway thanks guys since this is exactly what i was looking for!
Now i've a question regard the "lawful" part of the alignment: when you say you follow the laws those are intended to be laws of where you belong or laws of every city you come across? For sample, lets say you come from Cheliax, where slavery is pretty legal, as bribe is. And then you go in a city with the party where those are not allowed. Which law do you follow exactly?
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I Spread Bread On My Butter wrote:

I love Lannisters btw!

Anyway thanks guys since this is exactly what i was looking for!
Now i've a question regard the "lawful" part of the alignment: when you say you follow the laws those are intended to be laws of where you belong or laws of every city you come across? For sample, lets say you come from Cheliax, where slavery is pretty legal, as bribe is. And then you go in a city with the party where those are not allowed. Which law do you follow exactly?

Well, a lawful character doesn't have to follow the law - if they did LE criminals wouldn't exist.

If you're going to join the Order of the Ennead Star then you have to obey the law. And if you spend the whole campaign in a city whose laws promote good then you run the the risk of coming across as LN or even LG!

Whereas if you join the Order of the Asp or the Cockatrice you're more concerned with personal prestige (don't get caught!) and maybe self-respect (don't do anything that demeans you).

Right, short and focused explanation, thank you very much!
I wanna definitely build up this character!!

Now i'm not sure about the class that better fits my character.
Cavalier, Fighter or some other.

Right, short and focused explanation, thank you very much!
I wanna definitely build up this character!!

Now i'm not sure about the class that better fits my character.
Cavalier, Fighter or some other.

Well, the alignment system is pretty screwy. By which I mean it doesn't accurately represent actual humans, and everyone has a different opinion about what constitutes a particular alignment. There's no reason to start a debate here, but suffice it to say that you'll get people arguing both that you need to follow the laws of wherever you are and people arguing that lawful means that you are orderly/internally consistent and it doesn't have anything to do with laws written in books.

The important thing is: what does your character think? Does he think that slavery is ethical and therefore laws against it don't deserve to be followed, or does he think that laws should be obeyed no matter what they say, otherwise society suffers?

That's a nice question Asmo-Adv!
Now if i choose "slavery is right", my PC will be more Evil oriented.
If i choose "the law is the law", my PC will be more Legal oriented.
Am i right?

Disclaimer: The following is entirely my opinion. Different people interpret the alignments in different ways, because they really aren't very clearly defined and they are measured on not only one but two entirely subjective axes.

I depends on how you define law and evil. To answer your question on whether a lawful individual has to follow the laws wherever they go one only has to look at the paladin. If a paladin is tracking a band of orcs who recently sacked a village, murdered a bunch of people, and carried the rest off as slaves, and the paladin follows them into the orc's territory, does said paladin have to follow orcish laws? If they did, than paladins would never be able to go adventuring ever, 'cause I'm pretty sure one of those laws is, "don't kill orcs." And if the paladin breaks the orcs' laws that say slavery is fine and dandy, does that go against the lawful alignment?

In games that I DM, alignment doesn't exist. But in games that it does exist in, I think the answer is pretty clear: lawful characters pick and choose which laws they have to follow.

I don't think that a "lawful" alignment has anything to do with actual laws or rules. I think it has more to do with order and structure. What your character does has to make internal sense, you can follow your own rules, march to the beat of your own drum, but there have to be rules. Some people (especially lawful neutral people, but also many lawful good and lawful evil people) have one of their rules (maybe their only rule) as "follow the laws of the land, and if you disagree with them, work from inside them." But that isn't always the case.

What I was trying to get at with my question above, was, what does your character think is right and wrong? My view of lawful, rather than chaotic, isn't that you're right about what's right and wrong, but that you're consistent about it. My stance is that if your character's moral code says that slavery is good and right, that breaking the local laws to drag someone back to Cheliax to sell makes them a lawful character if not a pleasant one, and if someone's stance is that breaking the laws of human nations leads to disorder, and that it is impermissible no matter what, then not dragging them back to Cheliax to sell is lawful.

Though, in the case of the second stance, I personally am wary of people who's moral compunctions change when they walk over borders. Such a character might also have trouble in times of war, or civil war.

The important thing is to have an idea of who your character is, and why they are who they are. After that, just do what they'd do.

If you're going to play a weird, suboptimal race, then you should try to use the Cool Things that that race gets. For gnomes, that would be Bewildering Koan. Play a Scaled Fist Monk.
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